Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[beyondtimeandspace]

Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

Unlikely.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Well at least you got that part right.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Sure.
Sounds good.
Nope. A paradox is an apparent contradiction. But that's fine, let's not quibble over semantics.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Well, given that your definition of paradox is correct, and the claims of Christianity concerning God's omniscience and humanity's free will do form a contradiction, then sure, this would fly. But, since a paradox is only an apparent contradiction, and as far as I know a paradox is ALL those claims form, but are not actually contradicting, then I suppose I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Let's see your reasoning.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Yup.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Ah... see now this here I don't agree with at all. To satisfy that God is omniscient, our choices must be foreknown. This does not in any way mean that they are predetermined. You've made quite a leap here, and it is a most important and significant leap. Why? Because the rest of your argument rests on that leap. If anything, I suggest you lay out a nice, crisp, clean argument that shows that foreknowledge implies predetermination.

I'd respond to the rest of this post, but clearly there is no need, since I am not yet satisfied with this crux upon which the rest rests.

 

[jay_7]

http://www.meaning-of-life.info/IsThereaGod.html

Thanks for the welocme Btw if you take the time to reas the site above im pretty sure that it will give you mroe understanding that the christian God can exsist, please read the whole site above, theres a section that explains the part about having no free will, and that there actually is free will.

 

[Cris]

Beyond,

To satisfy that God is omniscient, our choices must be foreknown.

OK.

This does not in any way mean that they are predetermined.

How so?

If outcomes are known before they occur then they have clearly been predetermined. How or by whom is not the issue. Just that if foreknowledge exists then predetermination is a necessary corollary.

I suggest you lay out a nice, crisp, clean argument that shows that foreknowledge implies predetermination.

Done as requested.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

I don't see how it is so clear. I don't see how it is a necessary corollary.

 

[Cris]

Jay,

Btw if you take the time to reas the site above im pretty sure that it will give you mroe understanding that the christian God can exsist, please read the whole site above,

Thanks for the reference. I can use that. It is a good example of irresponsible indoctrination typically aimed at children and the gullible. Philosophically it is considerably unsophisticated and repeatedly makes huge errors in logical reasoning.

The predestination section hinges on the issue of "before" not having any meaning to a god. But that is irrelevant since humans are governed by time and "before" does exist for them. So the problem remains - if our actions are known before we have made them then our actions will have necessarily been predetermined.

 

[Cris]

beyond,

I don't see how it is so clear. I don't see how it is a necessary corollary.

Why not?

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

I simply don't see it. Call me stupid or mentally blind. Either way, if this argument is going to be acceptible, then you're going to have to show that what you're positing is true.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

Free will, is generally.. nonexistant... ie.. your tendency to make a specific decision is based on all your knowledge and experiences....

thus a crack addict will deside differently than a wall street investor...

their decisions in any matter... are already desided before the question was asked.

Its called habitual pattern of Thought.. as taught by the founder of the self realization fellowship.... (im not a member, but i agree with, and respect the Genius of the founder..)
-MT

 

[Prince_James]

Cris, mind if I throw in my two cents here?

There are three reasons why Free Will and a God akin to the Christians cannot exist side by side. This first reason is thus:

Free-will is necessarily destroyed by an omniscient, perfect being, having foreknowledge since the "dawn of Eternity" of one's actions. Why? Because choice requires the capacity to choose otherwise. If before one has even taken the choice, the answer is known as an ontologically-impossible-to-be-otherwise-than-truth-reality, then one simply has no choice whatsoever. Even before the -conditions- for the actions have come into -being-, the answer was known to God -perfectly-.

The second reason as followed:

The Christian God is said to be the source and creator of all things. By being said source, and having known even then what would result from it, he is not only the source, but the -actor- in all things. He has laid down a destiny of his own "choosing" and all things are a result of that primal cause which could not have ended up otherwise, as it is the Will of God.

The third (and last) reason is stated as:

Even God himself cannot be free. God has perfect knowledge of his own actions similarly since eternity and thus, in order to avoid destroying his perfection and omniscience, must act in complete accords to his own knowledge, and in fact, can do nothing but. God is as much a "victim" of his omniscience as any being.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Free-will is necessarily destroyed by an omniscient, perfect being, having foreknowledge since the "dawn of Eternity" of one's actions. Why? Because choice requires the capacity to choose otherwise. If before one has even taken the choice, the answer is known as an ontologically-impossible-to-be-otherwise-than-truth-reality, then one simply has no choice whatsoever. Even before the -conditions- for the actions have come into -being-, the answer was known to God -perfectly-.

This is where the difficulty comes in. The paradox arises when you consider God as an entity existing in the temporal, as we do. However, the conditions for the actions come into being simultaneously from all eternity in the experience of God. Thus, God's knowledge of our actions, to God, is not foreknowledge, but rather simply knowledge from experience of the real. Our actions then determine God's knowledge, not the other way around. We always think of God in anthropomorphic terms, as a being in the past, present or future. So, when we talk about the knowledge of God as omniscience, we can't help but to think of God's knowledge from our own standpoint, as foreknowledge. He knew before I did it. Well, no. God knows as you're doing it, because God knows all at once, because God experiences all at once. Thus God did not know before you did it. God knows it now. That's the only way it can be understood, because God is not a temporal being. God is an eternal being.

You might say, how can you say that about God? Only the same way I can say that God is omniscient. We ARE talking about the Christian God. This is an aspect of the Christian God. His knowledge is not a predeterminant of our actions. He knows our actions, because we do our actions. We do our actions because we choose our actions. We do not choose our actions because God knows our actions.

The second reason as followed:

The Christian God is said to be the source and creator of all things. By being said source, and having known even then what would result from it, he is not only the source, but the -actor- in all things. He has laid down a destiny of his own "choosing" and all things are a result of that primal cause which could not have ended up otherwise, as it is the Will of God.

Again, you're speaking of God in terms of temporality. The Christian God is not temporal. Thus, this argument is meaningless.

God's choice, God's act, God's experience, and God's knowledge arise and occur simultaneously from eternity.

The third (and last) reason is stated as:

Even God himself cannot be free. God has perfect knowledge of his own actions similarly since eternity and thus, in order to avoid destroying his perfection and omniscience, must act in complete accords to his own knowledge, and in fact, can do nothing but. God is as much a "victim" of his omniscience as any being.

Again, God is eternal, His choices, and His action, and His knowledge of His actions are not met out in any kind of temporal sequence, they are actuated simultaneously, eternally.

 

[Godless]

Again, God is eternal, His choices, and His action, and His knowledge of His actions are not met out in any kind of temporal sequence, they are actuated simultaneously, eternally.

You are contradicting yourself. It's a matter of semantics I know, but still contradiction.

We always think of God in anthropomorphic terms, as a being in the past, present or future.

"His" actions, "His" choices...etc..This is clearly anthropomorphic of a being that it's very existence is questionable.

This is where the difficulty comes in. The paradox arises when you consider God as an entity existing in the temporal, as we do. However, the conditions for the actions come into being simultaneously from all eternity in the experience of God. Thus, God's knowledge of our actions, to God, is not foreknowledge, but rather simply knowledge from experience of the real. Our actions then determine God's knowledge, not the other way around.

Rubbish; for a being with no identity, said to be unknowable it certainly has many advocates who stipulate it's behavior. :bugeye:

Godless

 

[Cris]

beyond,

I simply don't see it. Call me stupid or mentally blind. Either way, if this argument is going to be acceptible, then you're going to have to show that what you're positing is true.

Ask yourself this question. When you come to make a difficult decision that even you do not know what you will choose until the last second, but your decision has been known since the beginning of time, will you be able to choose anything else other tham what is known you will do? Where is the difference between what you think is a freewill choice and pre-programmed action?

 

[jay_7]

cris,

There was no beggining, there was a beggining of our universe, but not God. Hes always there, and where he is very different than this uiniverse.
God knows all becauses its like its happening all at one time, i cant really explain what i mean but if hes not in a time limit then everything happening in this universe hed know at once, he didnt choose what we done, he just knew it. Just like we predict weather, we dont change it, we just predict it.

You have to remember God is not in this universe, hes hasnt got the limitations we have.

Btw, it isn't pre-dertimened. God isnt in time remember, he cannot be before or after, hes in the present.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Godless, you believe I am contradicting myself because you think Eternality has to do with existing forever without beginning and without end, in time. Temporality and Eternality are opposites in my view. Temporality referring to sequenced, timed existence, Eternality referring to non-sequenced, non-timed existence (ie, the Eternal Now, simultaneous existence).

Yes, I do speak of God in anthropomorphic terms, it's next to impossible to do otherwise. However, I understand when I'm doing so, and why. God is not male, God is non-gendered. This is obvious and clear. "He" "Him" is inclusive language (except in the liberal, politically correct sense), and can be used to denote the male, the female, and the non-gendered, or neutral. This is how I use the term, and I understand it as such.

Some people say God is unknowable. I disagree. If He was, then nothing could be said of Him. God is knowable, to a point. God can only not be known in full. This is manifestly true since God is infinite, and while we can talk about properties and characteristics of an infinite thing, we, being finite, can never know that infinite thing in full. It's difficult to know even finite things in full. At any rate, I do not stipulate God's behaviour. This is the Christian God we're talking about right? I'm simply setting forth what is said of the Christian God.

Cris, think about it like this: My actions are known since the end of time. The difference between free will and pre-programming is consciousness. While even conscious entities are pre-programmed, being conscious allows one to change.

 

[finewine]

I will say that Christ is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Every person must make that decision. It does not matter if you cloud the issue with human intellectual wisdom that is foolishness to GOD. The bottom line is what do you think of Christ.
And if you do a serious intellectual search and study of ALL historical facts on him, you will come to the same conclusion as C.S.Lewis. He is Lord.
and then you make your choice. You say I will follow or you say I will not follow.
People who go to hell will choose to do so, not because GOD sends them there but because they want to listen to the wisdom that tickles their ears and agrees with what they want to think and consider truth. It is truth to you because you believe it not you believe it because it is truth. Each his own choice. You will die one day, that is an absolute truth.
I would say Christians are extremely intelligent. They can see beyond the little universe of time and space to a much bigger eternity of things.
Unbelievers lock themselves into that little universe so that they do not have to be accountable to an absolute truth of right and wrong and acknowledge GOD does exist. To acknowledge that GOD does exist means then you have to be accountable to HIS truth of right and wrong so they lock themselves into that infinite universe they can control so they can be their own little god.
Enjoy your reign.

 

[jay_7]

Heres a bit of a section that may help people understand this topic a bit more.. i'm not sure, but here it is:

"PREDESTINATION

The idea of predestination has been argued about for a long time. Some Christians stress that God has knowledge of everything, therefore He knows before He creates us who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. The feeling is that we may be trapped by God's foreknowledge.

Catholics stress that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and possess free will, like He does, and we have absolute complete control to shape the outcome of our own lives.

We have difficulty reconciling these viewpoints because we exist in a material world of time, and God does not. We try to apply our rules of temporal order to Him, and this cannot work. With God there is no past, present or future. Those are words that indicate relative time, and He exists outside of time. He simply is.

How can He know what we are going to do before we do it, even though we have complete freedom of choice? The error in our language is the word "before." That word does not apply to God. So that question is meaningless.

Note that if preachers who believe in predestination actually practiced what they preach, they would not preach at all. What would be the use? Nothing that they could do would affect anyone's destiny. They would not bother to baptize you, because if you were pre-ordained to go to heaven you would go there no matter what, and if your were pre-ordained to go to hell you would go there no matter what.

We should not bother to try to figure out just how God can do things. We are like ants trying to build a computer. Just trust that what He told us about how we must lead our lives is true.

" Source: http://www.meaning-of-life.info/IsThereaGod.html

 

[Cris]

Jay,

How can He know what we are going to do before we do it, even though we have complete freedom of choice? The error in our language is the word "before." That word does not apply to God. So that question is meaningless.

Your problem comes precisely because it is claimed God is outside of time and “before” doesn’t apply. This implies he knows every instant of time from the beginning to the ultimate end, all at the very instant of creation. Now from our perspective we didn’t exist at the point of creation and would not have made any choices at that time, but since God knows them then we can have no say on what we are going to do – all our actions would have been predetermined at the moment of creation, right?

We should not bother to try to figure out just how God can do things.

Standard Christian propaganda and agnosticism – i.e. God is unknowable. The problem comes when Christians choose to say they know the apparent nice things but say he is unknowable when faced with difficult questions. That is simple dishonesty.

We are like ants trying to build a computer.

Except that ants wouldn’t even realize the computer exists. In our case the theists propose a fantasy but can’t explain how it works or show it has any truth and when faced with paradoxical properties claim inscrutable mysticism.

Just trust that what He told us about how we must lead our lives is true.

Trouble is no one can demonstrate that it exists or has ever existed to even have said anything. And faced with paradoxical issues like omniscience vs freewill there seems even less reason to believe it exists.

 

[Cris]

Jay,

There was no beggining, there was a beggining of our universe, but not God.

I think you are saying an infinite god created the universe. That is the standard theist myth. How do you know the universe had a beginning?

Hes always there, and where he is very different than this uiniverse.

How do you know? What’s your evidence?

God knows all becauses its like its happening all at one time, i cant really explain what i mean but if hes not in a time limit then everything happening in this universe hed know at once, he didnt choose what we done, he just knew it.

So he does know what we are going to do before we do it then, right? So we are powerless to do anything except what he knows we will do right?

Just like we predict weather, we dont change it, we just predict it.

We predict it because we have learnt how to measure the causes and effects that lead to a particular pattern. But we don’t control those original causes. With an omnipotent and omniscient creator it would create the initial causes which would cause everything to follow in a precisely predictable manner. I.e. The creator would have predetermined everything that was to follow.

You have to remember God is not in this universe, hes hasnt got the limitations we have.

And that is the very property that would cause the inevitability of predetermination.

Btw, it isn't pre-dertimened. God isnt in time remember, he cannot be before or after, hes in the present.

Not quite, he would be at all points of time instantly. But for us there is a before and after.

 

[jay_7]

So? You have no more proof that he doesnt exist then i do that he does exist. This thread proves nothing. Its just based on a God within our universe. Anyway, if there is a God, then who knows what he can do. Just because us humans can't understand, doesnt mean its not possible. Trust me, dont bother trying to prove any points, becauses theres none that can prove he isnt real. Ive considered it alot of times, so im not ignorant, but i sitll believe in God. Also, why would God want to provide us this evidence of how he is all knowing, because if he did, then it wouldn't be a test of faith anymore, because it would be almost certian God is real, and just about everyone would believe. Next time you think of things this way, look at the big picture, we don't know all.

 

[Godless]

So? You have no more proof that he doesnt exist then i do that he does exist. This thread proves nothing. Its just based on a God within our universe. Anyway, if there is a God, then who knows what he can do. Just because us humans can't understand, doesnt mean its not possible. Trust me, dont bother trying to prove any points, becauses theres none that can prove he isnt real. Ive considered it alot of times, so im not ignorant, but i sitll believe in God. Also, why would God want to provide us this evidence of how he is all knowing, because if he did, then it wouldn't be a test of faith anymore, because it would be almost certian God is real, and just about everyone would believe. Next time you think of things this way, look at the big picture, we don't know all.

A good cop out!

When ever one makes an assertion, the one making the claim & or assertion is burdened with providing the evidence for such a claim. You have not done this, it's not in the shoulders of non-believers to provide you evidence that your claims don't exist, we are not making those wild ass claims & or assertions.

Godless