Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Cris, where do you get the idea that evil people cease to exist after death? That is false doctrine.
 
Cris said:
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris
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Dear Cris,

You minimalize GOD into your own understanding and box him into your finite understanding known as human intelligence.
It is quite easy for GOD to be omniscient and man to have free will if you do not lock yourself into the confinement of time.
Think on that if you will in your intellectual wisdom.

It is such a shame that you should think yourself so much greater than GOD that you can say he is NOT worth your attention when HE in fact loves you so greatly that you are worth HIS greatest and most unswerving attention to give HIS very life for you, and you are but a miniscule bacterium compared to HIM.

Obviously, this is important to you and you give it your attention. Why is that?
 
Marlin said:
I read somewhere that the word for "day" in Genesis can also be translated as "era" or "unspecified period of time."
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Ah how convenient, but I'll give you that one.

Lets move on to the next one then, Adam and Eve never existed, in fact we evolved from the simplest of organic molecules. Chistian creation never happened therefor there can not be a Christian God.
 
Cris , you ask me , if God´s action - which YOU believe is ending large numbers of individuals existence - is evil or not.

Any opponent with rhetorical skills could answer like this :
1) I do NOT agree that God ends the existance of individuals - according to my belief and many others the souls are immortal and have a happy time in hell , not feeling pain !!
And your claim that God ends the existance of individuals by ceasing their souls, are to my best knowledge, not founded in the Bible .....

That was one way to answer it , Cris , and do not get me wrong - I do not believe in anything myself - I am simply playing the devils advocate/lawyer in a philosophical play of words. This is like a chessgame with word for me - nothing less nothing more !!

The other way a rhetorical skilled opponent could answer your question :
2)Yes , I do agree that God ceases the existence of people - but that is not evil by God.
Let us take an example : an individual with a mortal uncurable painfull disease - many christians in my country think that euthanasia is acceptable - and in Holland it is legal - so there might be such a thing as ceasing an individual - without it beeing evil !!!!!
God might think that for instance your life with mental and religious agony searching for a true answer (you are searching for a church - and under your name it says that
you also are searching for immortallity ) - might be a mortal painfull uncurabel condition - and puts you out of misery together with trillions other individuals !!

I am only making an example of how the answers could be to your question - NOTHING
personal !!!!
Only a chessgame of words and logic !!!!!
Peace !!
 
philo,

God might think that for instance your life with mental and religious agony searching for a true answer (you are searching for a church - and under your name it says that
you also are searching for immortallity ) - might be a mortal painfull uncurabel condition - and puts you out of misery together with trillions other individuals !!
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Now add in the rationale that the god designed and created everything. If we are somehow faulty that can only be because of its faulty design. But it is meant to be perfect and can do no wrong - so we cannot become faulty. In that scenario the choice to keep some and destroy others appears no more than the god's pleasurebale whim. I would suggest that to destroy people for pleasure is evil.
 
philo,

I do NOT agree that God ends the existance of individuals - according to my belief and many others the souls are immortal and have a happy time in hell , not feeling pain !!
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The idea that people are happy in hell is not a common belief. The primary concept of hell is an ultimate punisment, either eternal suffering or permanent death, doesn't matter which for this argument. I could imagine extreme mental anguish to be an appropriate punishment if you want to maintain your idea that pain is not possible.
 
Marlin,

Cris, where do you get the idea that evil people cease to exist after death? That is false doctrine.
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Do you understand the two deaths issue? Hell is the grave where we all go and the second death is where those judged unworthy are thrown into the lake of fire for permanent destruction.

Basic Christian doctrine - accept Jesus as your savior and you will achieve eternal life, otherwise you will die, and here it is spiritual death.
 
BVS

God is obviously beyond the physical plane, and will never ever leave physical evidence as to His existence

Then, if no physical evidence is available, how would anyone know a god exists?

His consciousness is infinite, and the dwarfed vision of men cannot even begin to perceive His divine state. Humans have free will, and God is omniscient.

Those statements contradict your argument. How do you know if no physical evidence is available?
 
according to my belief and many others the souls are immortal and have a happy time in hell , not feeling pain !!
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That is quite a belief, now all you really have to do is prove that such a thing as a soul exist? What is a soul?. What do you mean by this term?

Godless
 
Finewine,

Hi and welcome to sciforums.

You minimalize GOD into your own understanding and box him into your finite understanding known as human intelligence.
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No, it is simple logic applied to irrational Christian mythology.

It is quite easy for GOD to be omniscient and man to have free will if you do not lock yourself into the confinement of time.
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If you believe it so then please explain how.

Think on that if you will in your intellectual wisdom.
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I have and it makes no difference to the logic. If you believe there is a problem then please explain.

It is such a shame that you should think yourself so much greater than GOD that you can say he is NOT worth your attention when HE in fact loves you so greatly that you are worth HIS greatest and most unswerving attention to give HIS very life for you, and you are but a miniscule bacterium compared to HIM.
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If he is evil as I have demonstrated he must be if he exists then I am vastly superior to him.

Obviously, this is important to you and you give it your attention. Why is that?
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Surely the demonstration of the probable non-existence of the Christian god must be important to Christians. It should dramatically affect their life beliefs. It makes no difference to my outlook since I already find Christian claims unbelievable.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
If God took day 7 off, that would mean the first 6 days took 4.5 billion minus 2 million= 4.498 billion years. So each of the first 6 days were 4.498 billion divided by 6 = 749,667,000 million years. That would mean that God must still be off duty and resting because his 7th day still has 747,667,000 years to go.
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Aaaaaaaahhh...!!!
THAT explain why the world is in such a deplorable state! God is off duty and resting!!! :p :D

Yaba Daba!:m:
 
Paraclete said:
Just saw this one -I must admit I have not read all the postings - too many !!
I promise that on this beauty I will ONLY use my philosophically skills !!

Cris, you claim, that the Christian God do not exist !!

It actually looks like both your proposal and reasoning holds water ...
Con gratulations.....

Then your question , OK ...

Conclusion 1: The first part is OK - you actually proves that God has no benevolence as you know benevolence, if he is omniscient - but then you jump to the conclusion that he is not worth our attention , I disagree : not all christians believe, that God is good as humans understand good.


Why do you think that God has benevolence as you know it - he loves to punish people :

He created Adam and Eve knowing they would eat his apples and kicked them out Paradise.
He created the people in the time of Noah - knowing they would sin and killed them by flooding the world.
He created the people of Sodom and Gomorrah , knowing they would sin and burned off their cities including the people .
He knew the people he created in Egypt would do wrong and send them the plagues.

God is still a bloody interesting creation and deserves our attention ........
This only proofs that God does what HE likes, and may not have the same ethics about good and evil as humans have ..

AND NOTICE THIS :
If Philosopher´s Stone is right about souls not feeling pain but just feel a little different when burning in fire - then actually God has benevolence because it is then NOT evil to let humans go to Hell !!!!!!!!!!!!


Conclusion 2: Yes , you actually proves that God do not exist if we have free will .
Con gratulation Cris - that is actually interesting ...

Conclusion 3) hmm , I am not sure this is good Cris , it is true that you prove that we are puppets in the hand of an evil monster (as you understand evil ). But now you jump to conclusions again , IF there are Christians that might accept God like that (God does what he wants and has no benevolence as you understand it ) ,then the choice is NOT nonsense, and after all they do not have any choice but accepting it, if it is Gods will , since in this case they do NOT have free will - do you see the logic ....


Or even worse - if Philosopher´s Stone is right with his souls not feeling pain - then God HAS benevolence, because it is not evil to condem humans to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then your proof has failed - then God DO indeed exist, omniscient,omnipotent and with benevolence ..... !!!!!

Cris - I think your proof is in dire strait !!!!!!! Please help me out on this one ,Cris !!!
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Oh.... my.... God................ :eek: :bugeye: :p
 
Cris said:
Marlin said:
“ Cris, where do you get the idea that evil people cease to exist after death? That is false doctrine.
Click to expand...

Do you understand the two deaths issue? Hell is the grave where we all go and the second death is where those judged unworthy are thrown into the lake of fire for permanent destruction.

Basic Christian doctrine - accept Jesus as your savior and you will achieve eternal life, otherwise you will die, and here it is spiritual death.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that for the wicked, there is a second death, a spiritual death. However, this doesn't end their existence; it simply puts them in a state of separation from God. They die pertaining to righteousness. But their spirits go on, and as 1 Cor. 15:21-23 tells us, "as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive."
 
Marlin,

Mormonism doesn't really help with issues about Christianity or the bible.

The bible talks of two deaths - the first is the grave (hell) where we all go when we die. Everyone is then resurected and for those who fail judgement they will expereince the second and final death - the lake of fire. Those that live will inherit the earth.

That's an oversimplifcation of a very long thread here where we had a well grounded decent Christian biblical scholar - he was incredibly irritating but pulled many biblical texts together without sectarian interpretation. In the end I found his perspective on the mythology convincing.
 
Marlin said:
More ironic words haven't been spoken, since Mormonism IS true Christianity.
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Oh yeah! Sure! Considering that it was created thousands of years after the Bible was put together and it completely ignore and mix many different parts of it..... :rolleyes:
 
TruthSeeker said:
Oh yeah! Sure! Considering that it was created thousands of years after the Bible was put together and it completely ignore and mix many different parts of it..... :rolleyes:
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Mormonism, or rather, the true Church of Jesus Christ, has existed before the world began, eternally.
 
*cough cough....

You only say that because you want to have many wives and f*** many girls at the same time..... :rolleyes:
 
TruthSeeker said:
*cough cough....

You only say that because you want to have many wives and f*** many girls at the same time..... :rolleyes:
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Nope. I only want one wife. Ever.

And the Church hasn't practiced polygamy since 1890. And it excommunicates those who practice it. ...rolleyes yourself. :rolleyes:
 
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