Proof of God

Okay
I don't know who Xenu is, I don't know how many people believe in his existance but since it's scientology I suppose quite a number of people do believe in him. Why...well why do people believe in most things...they've been convinced somehow.

I can answer question on God more effectively though.
Yes there is evidence that God does exist. It is the only evidence which could possibily be observerable which is a document of communication (Bible).

Do I believe in the existance of God? No. I know God exist. Through several factors which includes the bible as an historica record and through what science has been able to study and identify about the world around us, I'm able to concluded quite effectively that there is a God. The biblicaly extenal alone are able to determine there is a Creator, The bible merely identifies who and offers credence to the claim of his identity.

Do People Believe in God. Yes. Many types of gods and all varieties.

Do I suppose of those reason are the same sort of reasons that persuade people to believe in Xenu? Many of those reasons will be exactly the same. Most of them have nothing to do with the search for the truth but rather have very existential reasonings. A desire to whorship that which is greater, comfort & hope, Fear, Tradition, etc...

As you are something of a Platonist, may I remind you of what I told you recently, that Plato distinguished between belief/opinian ( doxa ) and knowledge ( episteme ). You believe god exists; you do not know. Pick up a book on epistemology and see for yourself.

On a previous thread you claimed that the bible was historically accurate and misquoted Mark in an attempt to make your point. I searched the Greek , the Latin and the King James' version of the NT and they were all in agreement that your version was wrong. Rather than accept defeat gracefully, you hid behind some version of the Bible which supported what you said. Unfortunately, you were unable or unwilling to cite your source so that it could be checked.

You lack credibility but I am not surprised to find you repeating the same old stuff on here. You have nothing else to offer.
 
Given that the "God" people would be trying to disprove is, in itself, a fallacy, it's pointless to try. The "God" that so many people do believe in is, compared to what it is supposed to represent, a midget actor on a vast stage. It is easy enough to prove that this or that God doesn't exist. After all, the holy books are generally wrong about how they depict nature. Whatever those "God" characters are, they aren't God.

What makes disproving God so difficult is that, in the face of reality, the believers make a fallacious leap, depending on a general principle of God that necessarily defies the boundaries of their chosen God. So while they might feel smug that nobody can disprove the existence of God, they ought not, since the God that cannot be disproved is infinitely greater than the "God" they believe in.

The God that cannot be disproven is a human invention. It is a word we've invented to represent a condition that resides at the outer boundary of our imagination. God exists because the condition it tends to represent exists. In other words, God exists because we have decided it should be so. The various, petty gods of the various, petty religions, however, are easily shown to not exist.

If I may add a couple of points. It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something and the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something does exist.
 
It's not a question of if God exists, look around do you really wholeheartedly think that reality is a fluke? I see organisation everywhere and that comes with guidance, a higher hand so to speak. Move up that chain and eventually you will reach the God head.
Movement begets movement, the first mover is God. Movement is therefore proof of God.
 
It's not a question of if God exists, look around do you really wholeheartedly think that reality is a fluke? I see organisation everywhere and that comes with guidance, a higher hand so to speak. Move up that chain and eventually you will reach the God head.
Movement begets movement, the first mover is God. Movement is therefore proof of God.

I think you are talking about bowel movement. Your argument is naive in the extreme. It is as old as the hills and been soundly refuted. Try reading a bit of philosophy and using reason. In time you may come to see why your argument doesn't hold water. On the other hand you may not.
 
From my experience of talking to you on here, you wouldn't know a rational argument if you tripped over one. You have previously spoken of angels and , on another thread, your response to someone who disagreed with you was "WE ARE TALKING OF THINGS BEYOND HUMAN UNDERSTANDING" Now that's what I call a rational argument.

As you quote Plato, how many of HIS gods do you worship ?

Your definition of rationale prejudicially polarizes the topic with hostility. You fixate your attention on my post at every opportunity to the point of obsessive compulsiveness. You aggresively seek to slander at every chance you are given and you've not displayed even a moment of sensibleness since I've known you.

If rational is the frequent use of anti-reasoning and obstinance, in the face of logic and open minded deductive reasoning, If rational is instigating conflict and enlarging social schisms across two parties which are aready causticly divided, If rational is the depraved desire for dissonance and contempt for that which you can not comprehend, Miles.....Then I want no part of what your actions have defined as rationale'.

Intolerance, hate, contentiousness, deranged fits and a pitch-fork N torch mob mentality. In my estimatation your actions on the forum closesly resemble the psychotic rationale of a Hitler, Kim Jong II, the Klu Klux Klan, Black Panthers, etc... That's how I see you.

Prejudicial and Intolerant. A Bully....in-every-sense-of -the-word.
You are what the rest of us must hurdle to find harmony.
 
Your definition of rationale prejudicially polarizes the topic with hostility. You fixate your attention on my post at every opportunity to the point of obsessive compulsiveness. You aggresively seek to slander at every chance you are given and you've not displayed even a moment of sensibleness since I've known you.

If rational is the frequent use of anti-reasoning and obstinance, in the face of logic and open minded deductive reasoning, If rational is instigating conflict and enlarging social schisms across two parties which are aready causticly divided, If rational is the depraved desire for dissonance and contempt for that which you can not comprehend, Miles.....Then I want no part of what your actions have defined as rationale'.

Intolerance, hate, contentiousness, deranged fits and a pitch-fork N torch mob mentality. In my estimatation your actions on the forum closesly resemble the psychotic rationale of a Hitler, Kim Jong II, the Klu Klux Klan, Black Panthers, etc... That's how I see you.

Prejudicial and Intolerant. A Bully....in-every-sense-of -the-word.
You are what the rest of us must hurdle to find harmony.

I'm sure that's an elegant response for anyone who knows what the hell you are talking about. Best stick to misquoting the scriptures to support your views. You have used no logical arguments that I am aware of.
 
Time for some serious proofs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_ontological_proof

Gödel's ontological proof
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gödel's ontological proof is a formalization of Saint Anselm's ontological argument for God's existence by the mathematician Kurt Gödel.

St. Anselm's ontological argument, in its most succinct form, is as follows: "God, by definition, is that than which a greater cannot be thought. God exists in the understanding. If God exists in the understanding, we could imagine Him to be greater by existing in reality. Therefore, God must exist." A more elaborate version was given by Gottfried Leibniz; this is the version that Gödel studied and attempted to clarify with his ontological argument.

Although Gödel was religious[citation needed], he never published his proof because he feared that it would be mistaken as establishing God's existence beyond doubt. Instead, he only saw it as a logical investigation and a clean formulation of Leibniz' argument with all assumptions spelled out. He repeatedly showed the argument to friends around 1970; it was published in 1987, nine years after his death.

Contents [hide]
1 The Proof
2 Modal logic
3 Axioms
4 Derivation
5 Critique of definitions and axioms
6 See also
7 References
8 External links



[edit] The Proof
Symbolically:




[edit] Modal logic
The proof uses modal logic, which distinguishes between necessary truths and contingent truths.

A truth is necessary if its negation entails a contradiction, such as 2 + 2 = 4; by contrast, a contingent truth just happens to be the case, for instance "more than half of the earth is covered by water". In the most common interpretation of modal logic, one considers "all possible worlds". If a statement is true in all possible worlds, then it is a necessary truth. If a statement happens to be true in our world, but is not true in all other worlds, then it is a contingent truth. A statement that is true in some world (not necessarily our own) is called a possible truth.

A property assigns to each object, in every possible world, a truth value (either true or false). Note that not all worlds have the same objects: some objects exist in some worlds and not in others. A property has only to assign truth values to those objects that exist in a particular world. As an example, consider the property

P(x) = x is pink
and consider the object

s = my shirt
In our world, P(s) is true because my shirt happens to be pink; in some other world, P(s) is false, while in still some other world, P(s) wouldn't make sense because my shirt doesn't exist there.

We say that the property P entails the property Q, if any object in any world that has the property P in that world also has the property Q in that same world. For example, the property

P(x) = x is taller than 2 meters
entails the property

Q(x) = x is taller than 1 meter.

[edit] Axioms
We first assume the following axiom:

Axiom 1: It is possible to single out positive properties from among all properties. Gödel defines a positive property rather vaguely: "Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)... It may also mean pure attribution as opposed to privation (or containing privation)." (Gödel 1995)
We then assume that the following three conditions hold for all positive properties (which can be summarized by saying "the positive properties form an ultrafilter"):

Axiom 2: If P is positive and P entails Q, then Q is positive.
Axiom 3: If P1, P2, P3, ..., Pn are positive properties, then the property (P1 AND P2 AND P3 ... AND Pn) is positive as well.
Axiom 4: If P is a property, then either P or its negation is positive, but not both.
Finally, we assume:

Axiom 5: Necessary existence is a positive property (Pos(NE)). This mirrors the key assumption in Anselm's argument.
Now we define a new property G: if x is an object in some possible world, then G(x) is true if and only if P(x) is true in that same world for all positive properties P. G is called the "God-like" property. An object x that has the God-like property is called God.


[edit] Derivation
From axioms 1 through 4, Gödel argued that in some possible world there exists God. He used a sort of modal plenitude principle to argue this from the logical consistency of Godlikeness. Note that this property is itself positive, since it is the conjunction of the (infinitely many) positive properties.

Then, Gödel defined essences: if x is an object in some world, then the property P is said to be an essence of x if P(x) is true in that world and if P entails all other properties that x has in that world. We also say that x necessarily exists if for every essence P the following is true: in every possible world, there is an element y with P(y).

Since necessary existence is positive, it must follow from Godlikeness. Moreover, Godlikeness is an essence of God, since it entails all positive properties, and any nonpositive property is the negation of some positive property, so God cannot have any nonpositive properties. Since any Godlike object is necessarily existent, it follows that any Godlike object in one world is a Godlike object in all worlds, by the definition of necessary existence. Given the existence of a Godlike object in one world, proven above, we may conclude that there is a Godlike object in every possible world, as required.

From these hypotheses, it is also possible to prove that there is only one God in each world: by identity of indiscernibles, no two distinct objects can have precisely the same properties, and so there can only be one object in each world that possesses property G. Gödel did not attempt to do so however, as he purposely limited his proof to the issue of existence, rather than uniqueness. This was more to preserve the logical precision of the argument than due to a penchant for polytheism. This uniqueness proof will only work if one supposes that the positiveness of a property is independent of the object to which it is applied, a claim which some have considered to be suspect.


[edit] Critique of definitions and axioms
There are several reasons Gödel's axioms may not be realistic, including the following:

It may be impossible to properly satisfy axiom 3, which assumes that a conjunction of positive properties is also a positive property; for the proof to work, the axiom must be taken to apply to arbitrary, not necessarily finite, collections of properties. Moreover, some positive properties may be incompatible with others. For example mercy may be incompatible with justice. In that case the conjunction would be an impossible property and G(x) would be false of every x. Ted Drange has made this objection to the coherence of attributing all positive properties to God - see this article for Drange's list of incompatible properties and some counter arguments. For these reasons, this axiom was replaced in some reworkings of the proof (including Anderson's, below) by the assumption that G(x) is positive (Pos(G(x)).
The set of all properties of any object a as a candidate for the set of all positive properties is always consistent with axioms 1–4 concerning positive properties, because the true statements P(a) form a class of statements closed under deduction. Any one property could be claimed to be positive, so long as it is not self-contradictory, with the right choice of a. Specifically, any property that can be possessed without contradiction is positive in some model of axioms 1–4, and any property that can be avoided without contradiction is non-positive in some model of axioms 1–4. Positivity of a property is as implicitly defined as anything can get. Why, then, should any one property (such as the one addressed in axiom 5) be assumed to be positive, given that no such statement is ever a tautology (although it can be a contradiction if the property is unsatisfiable)? Note that, with the right choice of axiom 5, all sorts of things could be proven (see also the objection below), an error common in some form to all ontological arguments. This problem with axiom 5 is a logically inescapable point, and is similar to the demonstration that, in the deontic logic of Ernst Mally, a statement is morally necessary if and only if it is true.
It was argued by Jordan Sobel that Gödel's axioms are too strong: they imply that all possible worlds are identical. He proved this result by considering the property "is such that X is true", where X is any true modal statement about the world. If g is a Godlike object, and X is in fact true, then g must possess this property, and hence must possess it necessarily. But then X is a necessary truth. A similar argument shows that all falsehoods are necessary falsehoods. C. Anthony Anderson gave a slightly different axiomatic system which attempts to avoid this problem.
In Anderson's system, Axioms 1, 2, and 5 above are unchanged; however the other axioms are replaced with:

Axiom 3': G(x) is positive.
Axiom 4': If a property is positive, its negation is not positive.
These axioms leave open the possibility that a Godlike object will possess some non-positive properties, provided that these properties are contingent rather than necessary.


Rest assured joepisotle I certainly did not ignore this but it will take some time to comprehend to enormity of this premise. My thanks in advanced although I'm not sure for what right now....
 
If that is how you see it, I would prefer you to tell me the version of the Bible which you claim mentions history in Matthew.

This would be a regression to a previous thread and off topic derailment of this thread.

Additional: Why would I acquiesce to your hostility? Your current status is adversarial and has been from the outset.
 
This would be a regression to a previous thread and off topic derailment of this thread.

Additional: Why would I acquiesce to your hostility? Your current status is adversarial and has been from the outset.

"My current status is adversarial." Well. well, so your understanding of a debate is that neither party should argue against the viewpoint of the other. That has to be another first, along with your personal Bible.

As to regressiom to another thread, you would happily repeat what you said there if it suited your argument which, of course,. it does not. You are choosing to ignore the fact that you failed to answer my questions and those of others when it was pointed out that you had invented an opening to Matthew which could not be found.

As for the rest., I find it offensive to be compared to psychotics such as Hitler, inter alia. If that's the best you can come up with, it does no more than show what an arrogant, ignorant person you are. You are about as open minded as a sponge.
 
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I've just read your thread and find some of it quite interesting, the age old question on the existence of deities, gods etc.
originally to me they are an invention of man and man alone.
We know that genesis is a collection of Babylonian fairytales which were written by the Jews when they were held captive by Babylon under the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (which can be dated to 100 years after Ashurbanipal who lived around 650 bc).
We know that the Jewish religion wrote the bible.
It wasn't till the enforcement of Christianity (under sentence of death) took place that the ethics of the translated Hebrew book was embedded as social and spiritual law . For 100's of years this was hardly questioned through fear of heresy.
In the 1800's people started to question the existence of god openly-
this is written by Heinrich Heine and admired by Nietzsche

our hearts are thrilled with compassion, for it is old Jehovah himself who is making ready die. We have known him so well, from his cradle in Egypt, where he was bought up among the divine crocodiles and calves, the onions and the ibises and sacred cats.
We saw him bid farewell to those companions of his childhood, the obelisks and sphinx's of the Nile, to become a little god-king in Palestine to a poor nation of Shepard’s.
later we saw him contact with the Assyro-Babylonian Civilization;at that stage he gave up his far too human passions and refrained from spitting wrath and vengeance; at any rate, he no longer thundered for the least trifle.
we saw him move to Rome, the capital where he abjured everything in the way of national prejudice and proclaimed the celestial equality of all peoples; with these fine phrases he set up in opposition to old Jupiter and, thanks to intriguing, he got into power and from the heights of the capital, ruled the city and the world, URBEM ET ORBEM.
We have seen him purify himself; spiritualize himself still more become paternal, compassionate, the benefactor of the human race, a philanthropist.
But nothing could save him!
Don't you hear the bell? Down on your knees! The sacrament is being carried to a dying God.

This passage form the mid 1800's traces the birth life and death of god.
Nietzsche view on the death of god was "the death of god is not merely a terrible fact, it is something willed by him. If god is dead, it is we who have killed him. We are the assassins of God".
Man brought him into existence controlled his actions through his existence and has taken him out of existence I.E. if you don't believe in god then to you he won't exist.

If by some chance life on earth is a freak occurrence one off and (until proven factually otherwise) there is no gods, aliens mystical forces. Then it means that we are the first and instead of being divided my myth and fairytale we should start and realising our own existence and ensure our physical survival as a race.

You can trace the life of god from birth to death so we know of his existence in history. there is no need for his existence now only our own.

nice thread
 
I heartily endorse your sentiments about our existence but I am pessimistic about a positive. outcome. If religion disappeared tomorrow, I believe it would be replaced by some other form of tribalism.
 
If religion disappeared tomorrow, I believe it would be replaced by some other form of tribalism.

In some parts of the world tribalism still exists in a form, unchanged and practised in the same way it always has been.In the modern world you can see forms of Neo-tribalistic practises (if thats a word) all over the place. football fan's.
teenagers hanging out dressing the same, listening same music, use same slang.
isn't the american election just the 4 yearly gathering of 2 modern tribes
the twelve tribes of israel that begat the tribe of christianity which begat loads of sub-tribes.
I cannot for my part see any difference between tribalism and religion.
In my opinion a comparative example could be-

At tribal ceremoniesI eat mushrooms(lsd),dance around making whooping noises,slaughter a goat,eat the goat and hope all is ok tomorrow

At church I drink the blood of christ(alcohol),clap my hands and sing, praise the dying of the lamb of god, eat part of the body of christ and hope all is ok tomorrow

this is obviously just a comparrison to 1 religious form of god worship but it depends on your definition of tribalism:bugeye:
 
In some parts of the world tribalism still exists in a form, unchanged and practised in the same way it always has been.In the modern world you can see forms of Neo-tribalistic practises (if thats a word) all over the place. football fan's.
teenagers hanging out dressing the same, listening same music, use same slang.
isn't the american election just the 4 yearly gathering of 2 modern tribes
the twelve tribes of israel that begat the tribe of christianity which begat loads of sub-tribes.
I cannot for my part see any difference between tribalism and religion.
In my opinion a comparative example could be-

At tribal ceremoniesI eat mushrooms(lsd),dance around making whooping noises,slaughter a goat,eat the goat and hope all is ok tomorrow

At church I drink the blood of christ(alcohol),clap my hands and sing, praise the dying of the lamb of god, eat part of the body of christ and hope all is ok tomorrow

this is obviously just a comparrison to 1 religious form of god worship but it depends on your definition of tribalism:bugeye:


I agree; there is no difference in substance, only in form.
 
Ref myles. no difference in substance only form

I think the word form is the undecided factor we can prove the existence of god from its beginings to its end (in my opinion) we know god exists people talk if it everyday type it into google you will find it, to me god only exists in the form of belief if you are talking about a physical god then that belief died centuries ago.
The term god shaped parts of mankind for nearly 2 millenia whether it does now I doubt and his existence in any form bar belief I cannot logicaly comprehend .
thats just my logic though.
 
Ref myles. no difference in substance only form

I think the word form is the undecided factor we can prove the existence of god from its beginings to its end (in my opinion) we know god exists people talk if it everyday type it into google you will find it, to me god only exists in the form of belief if you are talking about a physical god then that belief died centuries ago.
The term god shaped parts of mankind for nearly 2 millenia whether it does now I doubt and his existence in any form bar belief I cannot logicaly comprehend .
thats just my logic though.

Without wanting to appear boastful can I say that I am familiar with every argument which seeks to prove god's existence. I have yet to come upon one that cannopt easily be refuted.

As far as google is concerned, try searching unicorn, fairy, hobgoblin among others and you will find an explanation.
 
:shrug:there's no refutal in its existence.
its only existence is in the form of belief, this form has been substancial enough to drive mankind on for 1700+ years on pretty much belief alone, the fact that the term god has shaped society so much has to be classed as existence .
To say plainly it doesnt exist isn't true, to say it doesn't exist physicaly is true.
I don't believe in god but I am aware of belief in him having existed.
Scooby doo exists but he isn't real
 
:shrug:there's no refutal in its existence.
its only existence is in the form of belief, this form has been substancial enough to drive mankind on for 1700+ years on pretty much belief alone, the fact that the term god has shaped society so much has to be classed as existence .
To say plainly it doesnt exist isn't true, to say it doesn't exist physicaly is true.
I don't believe in god but I am aware of belief in him having existed.

Belief and knowledge are not the same. You can believe anything but a clain to knowledge must be supported by evidence acceptable to others
 
Belief and knowledge are not the same. You can believe anything but a claim to knowledge must be supported by evidence acceptable to others
Agreed.
Existence and reality are also not the same thing
If someone believes in superman, scooby doo, and god but knows there not real then intelligence tells you that they all exist but are not real. :bravo:
 
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