Proof of God

tresbien said:
A story of a man who denied the existence of Allah:
It is related that a man who denied the existence of the Creator came once to one of the caliphs and told him: "The scholars of your time say that there is a creator for this universe, and I am prepared to prove to them that this universe has no creator."
The caliph sent for one of the top scholars telling him of the man's claim and ordering him to come. The scholar was purposely late; then he came. The caliph welcomed him and seated him in the center of the session. Present at this meeting were many scholars and important people. So the man said: "Why were you late in your arrival?" The scholar said: "What if I tell you that a very strange matter occurred to me, and because of it I was late? My house is behind the river of Dijlah (Tigris). I came to cross the river, but I did not find anything other than an old boat with broken planks. When my gaze fell onto it, the planks moved, came together, and reassembled so that the boat became seaworthy. All this happened without the work of a carpenter or a worker. I sat in it, crossed the river, and came to this place.”

The man said: "O people, listen to what your scholar says. Have you heard anything more absurd than this? How can a boat exist without a carpenter to build it? This is an explicit lie."
The scholar said: "O blasphemer, if the mind does not accept the existence of a boat without a builder or carpenter, then how do you say that this entire universe exists without a creator?" The man became silent. He was refuted. The caliph punished him because of his bad beliefs.

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST


Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.


LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD


My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE


The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY


In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.



The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN


The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.


QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE


Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD


Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]





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All you have done is repeat tired old arguments that have been refuted time and again. Try reading some Western philosophy.
 
Perception entails conception and what is not percieved is nothing - in concept. But a general understanding or awareness through logic can still be obtained about something. The knowledge that I and the universe are one for example, and that what I percieve can give the illusion of existing in a limited space and time.
 
tresbien said:
The man said: "O people, listen to what your scholar says. Have you heard anything more absurd than this? How can a boat exist without a carpenter to build it? This is an explicit lie."
The scholar said: "O blasphemer, if the mind does not accept the existence of a boat without a builder or carpenter, then how do you say that this entire universe exists without a creator?"
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So then the man said:
Using YOUR OWN LOGIC God must also have a creator. Who is God's creator?
And the Scholar said (to everyone's shock) F*CK man you figured it out and yes you are right! Yeah yeah, we all know there is no God and it's all a bunch of bullshit - but if we let the little people know this then they may stop doing things for our fat lazy arses - and I think we can all agree we can't have that!

So they both had a beer and agreed to instead end the story like this: "The scholar said: "O blasphemer, if the mind does not accept the existence of a boat without a builder or carpenter, then how do you say that this entire universe exists without a creator?" anyone stupid enough to believe this bullshit about a magical fairy horse flying in the sky are too stupid to recognize the absurdity in their own story. And, to this day, people are still so stupid as to still use this ending thinking it's makes any damn bit of logical sense.


The End,

Michael

PS: I'm not sure if that was an accepted Hadith or not, but if it is it just goes a long way in proving to me just how simplistic Islamic philosophical reasoning is. It's at least 1000 years behind even the ANCIENT GREEK Philosophers. Really, it's so idiotic as to be pathetic.
 
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tresbien said:
An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God
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Does it get any more simple? Just pathetic?

An Atheist LACKS a belief in Gods and Goddesses and other fairy floss bullshit. Just as yourself tresbian: Do you believe in Xenu the intergalactic Warlord that millions of Scientologists worship?

What that's your mind said: NO!!

NO??!!?!?

Gee you must be Atheistic in regards to that particular smell of bullshit.

So, in case you were to simple and missed it, YOU are ATHEIST.
WE are both ATHEIST for all but your one bit of fairy floss that your mommy or daddy or whomever told you to believe in.


Michael


You know, I can see it just goes down hill from here. I'd like to note: SAM, being Muslims, I almost wonder if you cringe at the simplistic (almost childlike) absurdity with which tresbien "proooooooved" God AND the Qur'an are both TRUE. Haaahahahahaa..... now you have an idea where YOU are coming from. The only difference is when backed into a logical corner you either refuse to think or try as hard as possible to define every single word in the sentence to where the debate is to absurd as to have no meaning. What does what mean? What did those words mean that you used to define what and what-a-about those words and those ones and those ones and and and ... anything but to think about the question. Oooo by God I'm stuck time to just ignore the question all together and answer some other question. NEXT time you find yourself in THAT situation just refer back to tresbien's deep and thought provoking LOGICAL POOF of ALLAH and The Qur'an - they're God Damn air tight mathematical proofs!! Hahahahahahaaaa hahahahah aaaaahahahahahaaa hahahaaaa
 
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tresbien said:
At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat
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AAAHHHHhhhaaaaaHaaaa Haaaaa... yeah, just like discovering zero the Muslims also where the first to discover the Earth was round (this was during the magical Golden Age when all was perfect) and then they also managed to spark the European Renaissance - teaching European about painting styles they didn't know, maths they didn't invent, instruments they never plays, take the Opera or Ballet for example, only here because of Islam.....

:m: one more mate
MII
 
It seems you're lending your...considerable efforts to the degragation of the discussion.
Alas this is the course of most discussion between opponents, so I doubt you're surprised at the tail-spin. Discussions are often full of logic skewered with BS accusations and riddled through with contempt. Contempt for reason that is. Consistently it is reason and listening ears which are in short supply. Which is why the discussion does not progress. It's not simply due to the opposing nature of the individuals. It's the lack of consideration. Logic, is useless in the face of contemept and obstinance. Reason thus has no through way.
 
The presence of Impact Crators on the moon is evidence of truma as are the fisures that traces thought some region aswell as the massive upwellings of lava. As the Presence of water and craters on the moon and the presence of water and craters on Earth it may imply that Donald Patten is correct about his theory that the Global Deluge was that of a temporary rogue capture which dealt the Earth moon system a serious blow. His theory is detailed and fascinating. What he described would have been a far worse desaster than imagined in The Day After Tomorrow.
 
Saquist said:
It seems you're lending your...considerable efforts to the degragation of the discussion.
Alas this is the course of most discussion between opponents, so I doubt you're surprised at the tail-spin. Discussions are often full of logic skewered with BS accusations and riddled through with contempt. Contempt for reason that is. Consistently it is reason and listening ears which are in short supply. Which is why the discussion does not progress. It's not simply due to the opposing nature of the individuals. It's the lack of consideration. Logic, is useless in the face of contemept and obstinance. Reason thus has no through way.
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OK, lets test your hypothesis.

When considering the evidence for God is it (a) more than (b) less than or (c) the same as, the evidence for Xenu the Intergalactic Warlord presently worshiped by millions of Scientologist around the world?

So again, the options were:

(a) There is more evidence for God than for Xenu.
(b) There is less evidence for God than for Xenu.
(c) There is equal evidence for God as there is for Xenu.

Anyway, my pointing out the rather simplistic logical fallacies in a hack-copy-paste job may have been contemptuous but it doesn't take much to role the mouse over someone else's words and press Ctrl-C .... Ctrl-V ... Submit Reply now does it? If I was being contemptuous it was to someone else wasn't it?

Michael
 
Cortex_Colossus said:
Perception entails conception and what is not percieved is nothing - in concept. But a general understanding or awareness through logic can still be obtained about something. The knowledge that I and the universe are one for example, and that what I percieve can give the illusion of existing in a limited space and time.
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What on earth are you talking about. It sounds like something from The Beginner's Guide to Mysticism ?

What is not perceived is nothing ? So there are no trees in the middle of a forest because they have not been seen but as soon as someone enters the forest trees come into existence . Is that what you are saying ?
 
pharaohmoan said:
For me the existence of God is pointed to by the fact that the moon eclispes the sun so perfectly during a total solar eclipse. I don't believe this is coincidence.
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So, no total eclipses, no god. That is very sound reasoning.
 
Saquist said:
It seems you're lending your...considerable efforts to the degragation of the discussion.
Alas this is the course of most discussion between opponents, so I doubt you're surprised at the tail-spin. Discussions are often full of logic skewered with BS accusations and riddled through with contempt. Contempt for reason that is. Consistently it is reason and listening ears which are in short supply. Which is why the discussion does not progress. It's not simply due to the opposing nature of the individuals. It's the lack of consideration. Logic, is useless in the face of contemept and obstinance. Reason thus has no through way.
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You've got one bit right. " Logic is useless in the face of contempt and obstinance". That's why people like you won't accept the truth of evolutionary theory; you are stubborn because you are afraid to let go of your Biblical " truths ", which cannot be supported by logical arguments.
 
Enmos said:
Uhm.. it has not always been that way.
And the moon also does not always perfectly eclipse the sun.

The moon moves away from the earth at 3.8 cm/year, which incidentally slows down the rotation of the earth.
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So , what's your beef ? The moon is simply doing what it was designed to do.
" And verily I say unto you that the moon shall be made to remove the sun from the firmament and a great darkness will fall upon the earth"

Eugenics 12. 4
 
Myles said:
So , what's your beef ? The moon is simply doing what it was designed to do.
" And verily I say unto you that the moon shall be made to remove the sun from the firmament and a great darkness will fall upon the earth"

Eugenics 12. 4
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:confused: ..right. Designed ??
 
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