pro-life vs pro-choice

[Lawdog]

one that really had faith in god and what is to come in the afterlife. released to heaven or stay in prison for countless years being threatened, maybe raped, treated like an animal? or heaven ( if he or she is a believer). the saying that there are fates worse than death is apparent and true to anyone no matter what their beliefs. for a christian, it should be a no brainer.

OK. You can have a win on the idea that there are fates worse than death. I agree. You are right.

However...I say that if God has chosen this fate for me, I must in humility accept it, trusting in the power and goodness of God. Not kill myself.

The same goes for a woman who has done what was meant only mothers and wives, and also for women who violated and were raped. God has allowed these things. We cannot see what greater good might come from these evils.

 

[getts]

the pro-life decision supports religion, and is therefore immoral.
its the woman's body, the woman's child, the woman's choice.

It is also the womans child after birth.....so do you support the right to kill a child at any age???

 

[Sushupti]

After birth, it's perfectly easy to just give it up for adoption. Most of the bad stuff of pregnancy is always past.

Abortion saves great pain and trouble, and general badness.

 

[VossistArts]

OK. You can have a win on the idea that there are fates worse than death. I agree. You are right.

However...I say that if God has chosen this fate for me, I must in humility accept it, trusting in the power and goodness of God. Not kill myself.

The same goes for a woman who has done what was meant only mothers and wives, and also for women who violated and were raped. God has allowed these things. We cannot see what greater good might come from these evils.

Honestly, I tend to agree with you. But just because you and I feel this way, doesnt mean there should be laws made to support the way we feel about. Not when there are so many people out there who dont feel this way. The thing is, with your attitude, you'll try and make the best out of things. The problem is that many people do not have this attitude, and the people who suffer often through the entirety of their lifetimes, are the unwanted ones. I cant justify forcing people to trust in my or your hopes for some greater design by my own personal convictions. What if Im wrong? Im not a Christian. If i were a Christian though, I couldnt see the issue. If a potential person is aborted or not, Christians win essentially. On the one hand, the potential being goes to heaven. On the other hand they get to live their horrible life for good reasons we cant see or understand. I dont see how pro-life is justified by those people.

I have muse about it though. Lets take a national vote on it to decide the issue. Everyone that votes has to register their name and how they vote and the pro-life people, if they should win the vote, get an additional say 11% increase in the income tax they pay yearly to go towards funding programs that take care of orphaned, or abused children, and to families that have to support children they wouldve otherwise not had if there hadnt been a law preventing them for health insurance if nothing else. I bet youd see a lot of people out there who are pro-life skip the vote altogether. Do you disagree? As for the pro-choice people, if they win and Christians are right about the afterlife, God will decide their fate. Seems fair to me. Do you disagree?

 

[VossistArts]

It is also the womans child after birth.....so do you support the right to kill a child at any age???

Im pretty sure there is a time frame that a person must exist in in order to be able to have an abortion, in any case. Isnt that so?

 

[getts]

Im pretty sure there is a time frame that a person must exist in in order to be able to have an abortion, in any case. Isnt that so?

I am not sure I understand your point......call me a dullard, if you must, but I think I missed where you are headed with this.

I response to you statements above your last post, why is it always up to the gov't to pay for peoples mistakes?? Why not make people responsible for their actions, and if they create a life, they must care for it?? Why has the responsibility for actions been removed from 'modern-America'?

This is at the root of many of this nations problems. If people were responsible for their actions we would be a much stronger nation...But that discussion reaches far past the topic of abortion!

 

[Sushupti]

I am not sure I understand your point......call me a dullard, if you must, but I think I missed where you are headed with this.

I response to you statements above your last post, why is it always up to the gov't to pay for peoples mistakes?? Why not make people responsible for their actions, and if they create a life, they must care for it?? Why has the responsibility for actions been removed from 'modern-America'?

This is at the root of many of this nations problems. If people were responsible for their actions we would be a much stronger nation...But that discussion reaches far past the topic of abortion!

I agree. Allow abortions, but make them pay. Infasct, cancel all that government health support crap. That's why people have to work; so they don't die. If someone can't afford to pay the good doctors properly, maybe they should be dying after all!

Evolution for the species, RAWR!

 

[Lawdog]

Honestly, I tend to agree with you. But just because you and I feel this way, doesnt mean there should be laws made to support the way we feel about. Not when there are so many people out there who dont feel this way. The thing is, with your attitude, you'll try and make the best out of things. The problem is that many people do not have this attitude, and the people who suffer often through the entirety of their lifetimes, are the unwanted ones. I cant justify forcing people to trust in my or your hopes for some greater design by my own personal convictions. What if Im wrong? Im not a Christian. If i were a Christian though, I couldnt see the issue. If a potential person is aborted or not, Christians win essentially. On the one hand, the potential being goes to heaven. On the other hand they get to live their horrible life for good reasons we cant see or understand. I dont see how pro-life is justified by those people.

One need not be christian to conclude that a mother tearing the baby out of her own womb is wrong. Your observation that there are so many who support it is an important point. By having made the mistake of legalizing it, we are now faced with the problem: how can we take away a freedom that has been given. The fact is, that we had no right to give this freedom in the first place. This is an illusory freedom anyway, since it is a selfish act and enslaves to a loveless selfhood. So we have a great moral dilemma and must come up with some sort of solution. I say that the freedom of one person is less important than the life of another, therefore, the illigitimate freedom that we gave should now be taken away, principly because the freedom not only is contrary to divine and human law, but it has been promoted, there being huge increases in abortion since legalization. Also we must consider the secondary effects of this crime:
I view abortion as against the natural law, as murder. Therefore I am bound by the natural law itself to take this position, which many call extremist, but which is not in truth. Laws that allow a particular crime are also promoting and sanctioning that very crime, protecting the crime by law, in effect, making what is a crime into a non-crime. This puts in peril the whole edifice on which western civilization has been nourished and advanced, the law contradicts itself on an essential point, it becomes absurd, becomes a tool of oppression contrary to nature, and eventually the family, the foundation of societal cohesion is also put in peril, attitudes of dehuminization have flourished because of this false law and people no longer understand the dignity of human life. I would not be surprised if we soon started feeding people to lions in an arena for entertainment. Ever see that film Logan's Run? Its coming..

 

[VossistArts]

One need not be christian to conclude that a mother tearing the baby out of her own womb is wrong. Your observation that there are so many who support it is an important point. By having made the mistake of legalizing it, we are now faced with the problem: how can we take away a freedom that has been given.

Kind of like removing a germinated seed of a tree from the ground before it stretches into the air is cutting down a tree? The thing is, that in my experience anyway, at that early stage of developement almost every woman ive met feels like it is a part of their body, not like it is a child, more like a mass of cells. I dont any but the most jaded of women could remain sane if they believed that their child was being murdered. The idea the there is considerable consciousness in that early state of life isnt scientifically supported that Im aware of, and doesnt even make reasonable sense in an intuitive sort of way. I agree that a time rather close to conception that its not reasonable in almost any case to terminate the process.
As far as freedom goes Im not sure I understand what youre saying. Freedom in as far as doing things goes, to me , is defined by what we can and will do. which is a lot. Then were regulated from there. Women can and will think of way to abort the process. Sure there is a greater incidence of abortion since its been legalized. Our world population is growing almost exponetially and apparently women are acknowledging responcibility over irresponcibility by deciding to stop the process rather than allow it as the least of the evils, if you chose to call it that. NO women feels good about abortion. I think they feel far worse about the notion of bringing a child into this world unwanted. It should be up to the mothers. That is why i stand by pro-choice. If a pregnant woman feels like you do, she can have all the wanted or unwanted children she can handle in the name of preserving the sanctity of life although im not sure how bringing unwanted beings into this overpopulated world enhances it for them or for the rest of the world. And on the other hand if a women feels as though termination is the best choice she should be allowed to follow through with that decision safely.


Just a distracted muse: shouldnt people against murding beings as you put it also feel as strongly about kill ANY higher life forms at any point in time in their existance. I think so. I have a hard time taking pro-lifers seriously when I know they have a freezer full of beef at home. That makes an ugly assumption. That humans are the highest and most important and are the only truly valuable considerable life on this planet. To me that is plain ignorant Seeing the kinds of horror and decay we've caused. In that light, humanity is clearly more like a disease than anything else. Not that I feel that we are. But to be fair heh

 

[Lawdog]

The consciousness of the mass of cells is not what makes human life sacred. Individuals should not be labeled SUBHUMAN merely because they do not have active brains. They are willed by God to grow brains and no one is permitted to interfere.

I enjoy steak and other meats. Your argument concerning the animals is absurd. These goods were made by God for our enjoyment, as well as for the devouring pleasure of other meat-eating animals. Jesus himself offers himself as food for our spiritual welfare.

God alone makes the rains fall, He alone makes the animals multiply.

 

[VossistArts]

How do you know what god wants. Its easy to argue points when god is on your side huh. I wasnt aware that this was a religious discussion. If thats the case then Im out.

 

[VossistArts]

Oh and by the way my argument is completely logical. From where I sit your arguement is the one that is absurd. Killing is killing. God has nothing to do with this. You put human life miles beyond any other kinds of life and your only explaination justifying it is that God makes animals for us to kill and enjoy?? Try to remember this is sciforums ok?

 

[Lawdog]

Vossist Arts "Try to remember this is sciforums ok? "

The materialist atheist/agnostic faction does not have a corner on Science. In fact, they are the outdated besieged minority. After all your women abort, there will be no descendents left to preach the false philosophy.

 

[okinrus]

The thing is, that in my experience anyway, at that early stage of developement almost every woman ive met feels like it is a part of their body, not like it is a child, more like a mass of cells.

It doesn't matter. To those that are blind and deaf person, those around him do not exist until they touch him.

 

[VossistArts]

Im more of a deist than anything. Not materialist, atheist/agnostic,nor outdated, besieged or in the minority.I have my kids, I dont agree with abortion, I vote pro-choice because I dont expect anyone to feel the way I do about the issue. How is having no descendants to preach false prophesy a bad thing.

At any rate, throughout my life in debates Ive always considered it a win once my opponent resorts to labeling me and generalizing me as a form of argument (yeah nothing serious but nevertheless placing assumptions on me personally by way of the stance I took in a conversation). Shrugs

 

[talk2farley]

All the pro-choicers here are absolutely correct: we all developed in a womans body, so it should be her choice whether or not we are allowed to live or die. Up to a reasonable age point, of course, that point to be determined arbitrarily by 8 old men and 1 old possible woman who between them have a cumulative zero years of scientific study and practice.

My only real concern is that the court erred in making 9 months post-conception the "deadline" (no pun intended) for killing babies. Many parents, particularly young and lower-class parents, dont have a full appreciation for the costs and challenges a child represents until post-birth, when it becomes poignantly clear. So I think, given that, and given that a pre-birth fetus is only slightly less responsive to external stimulii then a post-birth infant (and therefore only slightly less alive, but of course not alive enough to have the right to continue living), we should allow, say, "post term" abortions up to 3 years after birth. After all, it is the womans home that the baby has to live under. The womans food that the baby eats. The womans time that the baby consumes. Ergo, it should be the womans choice as to how long the baby gets to enjoy this thing we called Earth.

If the courts and corridors of politics were not filled with so many of those backwards, inbred, cheauvinistic, sexist, bloodsucking Republicans, I have no doubt we'd already have achieved this next goal in the overall web of womens liberation.