pro-life vs pro-choice

Bells:
Yes, but only if your body infringes on the rights of others or their property.

Try being caught using cocaine in the comfort of your own home and see how society doesn't control your body. Get arrested for public nudity and see how long society respects your tender sentiments about freedom.

Frankly, I can do whatever I wish to myself, so long as I don't infringe on the rights of others, their person or their property.

You cannot take illicit drugs.
You cannot decide not to cover areas of your body deemed obscene.
You cannot harm yourself (this could lead to psychiatric commitment)

You can use motor vehicles in a way that harms our common environment.
You can contribute a great deal to public waste.
You can sit on welfare spitting out child after child.

Your argument is very fine and idealistic, but it's got to meet reality some day.
 
Ah, but Bells, how about the case of Terri Schiavo, the woman CNN delighted in shoving their cameras up the nose of?
(Honestly, that's all we saw. Her nose, nostrils facing the viewer, as the camera mysteriously drifted towards it. They must think we like staring at it.)

You are not free to do what you wish with your body. She obviously wanted to leave her body fed, but they didn't let her do that.

You only have the illusion that you're free to do with your body as you wish, but that's only a foolish thought. It's only because you're able-bodied that you can flaunt the law and call it freedom; in that case you could say that the disabled aren't allowed all the "rights" of the able-bodied.
 
You’re confusing control with the concepts of property, ownership and possession.
You have control over your body, but unless you function without interacting in the infrastructure that you reside in, you are a part of your surroundings.
You little shit. You define your life to be a triumphant glorification of independence without realizing that you are nothing without external factors.
Wankin off to a playboy magazine is not comparable to creating conflicts which cause dissonance in my goddamn reference group.

When enough people realize that they do not want you to influence them, they do not want you adopting their views, they do not want your attributes to be present; they rule you out causing severe discomfort to your sense of individualism.

You live your life under the cloak of autonomy, as do I. The difference between us is that I can use that cloak to my advantage for I realize that I am dependant of it. I’m not using it as an armor, I cope with it- for it is not concrete reality, it’s merely an condition placed upon you. I realize the necessities residing in conditions, positions and mindsets.
Also, I accept my role in society without going psycho about how it is restricting my individuality.
You have yet to grasp the wisdom of insight, motherfucker.

Look here Betsy, if I can attract enough people to share my views in how you should be kicked in your pregnant stomach with a size 47 safety boot: you would get kicked in your pregnant stomach with a size 47 safety boot.
If I can attract enough people to support me, vote for me and share their potential with me, I can make you my fucking slave, I can own you.
All this without physical contact (except the “boot, meet stomach” thingy)

And don’t expect your environment or your culture to shield you against arguments of collective consciousness. Fucking hell… ‘the sense of individuality is strong in this one’. You are seriously delusional if you consider my points to be only, exclusively, aimed towards you.
Fuck you if I have to study your petty little pool of experiences and cultural influences in order to contribute views.
And by the way, you missed the whole point in that china argument.
I don’t care if it will be deemed as a failure, you miscomprehending airhead. The point is they control individuals, society owns their bodies in the aspect of reproduction.

You and your ‘other-half’ are components in society. You are here to maintain the position that you hold dear. Before you die you will appoint another set of puppets to advocate the sense of consistency.
And like I said, you do not realize this which makes you ordinary, not an individual.

When you visit an obstetrician, I am paying for it. I’m not interested how things work where you live, but in here medical/psychological services are completely free; they are maintained with funds taken from collective resources.
I’m basing my points and views to references that I am familiar with, I extract thoughts from my experiences and positions. If this is too much to handle, feel free to fuck off.
When you imply that I have no points in my arguments, you publicize your little dumbbell perspectives of life.
Continue your petty existence of vaguely segmenting views into boxes, for example to pro-life and to pro-choice.

Did I imply that you’re a miscomprehending airhead? Yeah I did, now’s the time to scroll back to that phrase and reread it, for you compared me to a rightwing zealot pro-lifer.
If you have not managed to absorb the basic elements of my views concerning this aspect, you are lost beyond fucking help.

And my cock and balls are owned by society, if they weren’t, you would have your hands nailed to a wall and my penis would be ravaging your colon (actually no, it just sounded cool, but you get the rape analogy without further explanations I trust).


Betsy: “As a member of society, I thank you for preserving society by not inflicting your genes upon the coming generations.”

And I’m screaming in horror because you let yours loose.


Betsy: “I visit any town hall or musuem and your dick and balls aren't there on display”

I know! It’s a fucking shame. I’m the Cadillac of men.
Now… go and put your stinkhole on display to attract some vacuum-cleaner salesmen to impregnate you.


At this time it became too boring for me to read any more of your repetitive jive.
 
I did not say that the foetus is my body. I said that it is inside my body. Therefore I'm the one that has control over it, not society. If I wish to starve myself, I'm free to do so.
Suicide is a crime in many countries. Utlimately, your free to try, but if you fail society will make sure you get counceling.

Society can't stop me from doing so.
Your using society loosely. Sure, society can stop you. Maybe if you try to buy ciggarets, the cashier won't let you. Perhaps all cashiers won't. In theory, then, society may only creates a new law if the new law is enforcible. Just because a law doesn't exist doesn't mean society doesn't have the right to create a law.

You approach this argument from a Christian stand point.
Yes, but I don't see ownership has a feasable alternative to ethics. Yes, from a Christian perspective God might grant ownership to people, of some things; but to make any sense this principle must be extended well beyond what's typically meant by ownership, I think.

While the foetus is a different organism to me... it can't survive outside my body until it becomes viable (ie. it's organs are able to support it outside of the womb).
Every human being is entitled to certain rights. For instace, we're all entitled to rights, such as life, liberty, and happiness, even though these rights are dependent upon society. To have life, society must protect life. No baby, then, is viable in the sense your using it. All babies need food and shelter.


Your example about the eyes and miscarriage apply to some form of revenge or an eye for an eye. I can't take someone's eyesight because I'd be infringing on the body of another.
If they've taken your eyesight away, you'll be even if you take theirs.

But lets say I have eye cancer and am told that to prevent blindness, I must wear protective sunglasses. No one can force me to wear those glasses to save my own eyesight.
Any law to force you to wear sunglasses is impractical.

I can choose not to wear them and go blind. But if someone prevents me from wearing those glasses, then that becomes an offence and society steps in. Get it?
It depends. Society must enforce your right to happiness, and because any way of forcing you to wear them would break your right, society might step in. But I doubt forcing you to wear them as an abstract concept breaks any of your rights. In fact, you can't drive while using your cellphone in DC. You can't drive without your seatbelt on, too. Of course, the way the state enforces these laws is either within your rights or outside. If the state forced you to wear a seatbelt by installing a video camera in your car, what their doing is outside.

If you go into a jewellery store and swallow a gold trinket without having paid for it, it's not yours regardless of whether it's in your body or not. Would you like to know why? Because the trinket belongs to someone else and unless they consented to your swallowing it and keeping it, it's not yours.
No, it's not mine. My objection was mainly to show that just because something's within you, doesn't really mean you own it. So who owns the fetus? Because the biological material with from the mother and the father, shouldn't the mother and father have the same ownership? And what happends with the fetus becomes "viable" or born? Doesn't your beliefs, too, impose a belief that God doesn't own the fetus?

If you wish to use your house as a target zone, you can do so, so long as you don't infringe or disturb any of your neighbours. If you live on 100 hectares and you have a target zone in the middle of your property, away from anyone else bordering your property and you're not disturbing or harming your neighbours and their property, you're free to do so.
Prochoicers have disturbed quite a few prolifers, right? In some parts you might be able to use your property for target practicing, but in other parts the housing codes has banned this sort of thing.
 
tiassa said:
Wow. That's news. I hadn't heard that yet.

Well, they did say she was struggling and "making signs" for the feeding tube. I'm sure in the final stages of starvation, she wanted the tube a teeny bit, since they say she wasn't exactly at peace.

I'm not one of those people who care, though. I just used her as an example.
 
Naomi said:

Well, they did say she was struggling and "making signs" for the feeding tube.

Yeah, I did hear that. It was horsepucky propaganda, part of a string of desperate declarations generated by a mismanaged courtroom campaign.

No matter how many times the family repeated it, they didn't demonstrate it. Given clearance by Congress and the President to sue anybody they wanted for anything they wanted, they failed to use that opportunity to prove the point. Why? Perhaps because they couldn't? Perhaps because the case just wasn't there?
 
I think this (Terri Schiavo's case) was an instance where the pinciple defeated its own purpose. Human Rights are a poor substitute for conscience and common sense.

It's interesting how technology is at the centre of the issue. It is forcing us to make choices we're not used to making. Neither outcome would have been particularly thought-provoking if it had not been for the intrigue and politics surrounding it. At least it forced people to consider the responsibilities a relationship between human beings could bring, now that "letting someone go" has ceased to be a passive role, it has been activated by technology.

Now we could have front row seats at anyone's death bed, and maybe even a joystick to control it with.
 
Last edited:
Jenyar said:

Now we could have front row seats at anyone's death bed, and maybe even a joystick to control it with.

Anyone remember Max Headroom?
 
Two of the scariest notions of the future I know of come from Max Headroom: the Ad Market and the instant elections.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
I can't help to think that the pro-life position is immoral. As we have seen recently and in the past, prolife and prochoice often come in conflict with each other. And of course you could think that they are just two opposite opinions.

But they aren't.

In my opinion they are fundamentally different. Pro-life is a rather rigid mindset that leaves no room for other people's opinions. You are either pro-life or you are not. They do not accept deviation from this path.

Pro-choice accepts that there is diversity within a population and its general premise is that you should respect other people's viewpoints.

How can prochoice clash with prolife then? Well, it can't in a sense. I feel that the problem is more that prolife clashes with prochoice.

What are your views on this matter?

We recently had a pro-life then immediately following, a pro-choice rally in the town I live in. I made a shirt to wear to both that says, " I disagree with abortion, I vote pro-choice."
Its not exactly the way I feel but I think the logic is ideal. If you dont like something, dont do it. Dont try and enforce your feelings upon everyone by making laws to support only your side. If you think abortion is murder, dont have and abortion. Leave everyone else out of it. If you dont believe in gay marriage, dont marry a gay person. If you dont believe in swearing, dont swear, but dont restrict my full use of the english language because of it. In general I think we in the country ought to reject restrictive ideas and laws in instinctively and in general.
 
I think it's also painfully obvious that pro-life people, at least the majority of them, are also against birth control. They don't think kids in their teens should be having sex. They don't think that single women should have sex. They honestly are simply trying to control womens sexuality by using abortion as an argument against them. For the Fundies, it's not about the sanctity of life, but about the control of sexuality because of it's religious immorality. Unfortunately, it happens to be that women are the primary targets of the idealistic bullshit because they are the ones who end up pregnant.

I think that the pro-life movement needs to understand the importance of birth control and recognize that people are going to screw, and that people make mistakes. I think there can be a middle ground between the two sides if we start understanding human rights a little better and stop getting so caught up in potentials and what-if's. I think that the pro-life movement needs to be more humane, and a little less self-righteous before they will ever be taken seriously. I have children, and can't personally imagine making that choice, but I agree with a woman's right those choices in most circumstances. Criminal behaviour needs to be addressed, but I think an earlier post of mine did just that.

As the great Leonard Cohen once wrote and sang;

"Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. "
 
Hapsburg said:
all im saying:
its the woman's body, the woman's baby, the woman's choice.
simple.
as.
fucking.
that!

Listen to yourself, are you hysterical?

Freedom is limited only to be free to choose the Good, which is always Life --(Life has precedence over liberty).

What criminal would choose death over imprisonment?

God giveth, God taketh away, not Man giveth, Man taketh away, or Woman, for that matter.
 
Lawdog said:
Listen to yourself, are you hysterical?

Freedom is limited only to be free to choose the Good, which is always Life --(Life has precedence over liberty).

What criminal would choose death over imprisonment?

God giveth, God taketh away, not Man giveth, Man taketh away, or Woman, for that matter.



perhaps youre the one who is a little hysterical. If you believe in god and heaven and that abortion is killing a child, how can you justify an attitude that forces children to be born to people who do not want them, who will neglect and therefor abuse them; that the result of the neglect and abuse will cause them to suffer daily for as many as 100 years on this planet... when they could otherwise be released...and go to heaven and live in peace and with joy with god and angels for eternity.

what criminal would chose death over imprisonment?

one that really had faith in god and what is to come in the afterlife. released to heaven or stay in prison for countless years being threatened, maybe raped, treated like an animal? or heaven ( if he or she is a believer). the saying that there are fates worse than death is apparent and true to anyone no matter what their beliefs. for a christian, it should be a no brainer.
 
"Pro life" is a deeply retarded term. "Anti-choice" would be more accurate, in the sense that it wouldn't be ridiculously misleading flamebait.
 
Jinoda said:
However, you cannot lay the blame upon neither pro-lifers or pro-choicers for that.

Because I am pro-life, this doesn't obligate me to do or believe anything else, it's simple really: I'm against abortion. I'm not against helping kids out in other countries or whatever, and being pro-life should not label me as some rich greedy Christian. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stereotyping is awesome.

If you want to blame pro-lifers for "8000 kids dying due to easily-cured diseases that would have cost nothing per child", then you must also lay the blame on pro-choicers. You guys aren't doing anything more or less than pro-lifers to help this dilemma.

One creed does not and should not obligate you to another.

You have to face the fact: No matter our opinion on this issue, we are all just a bunch of greedy first-world fat cats unwilling to agree on anything, let alone help a kid or two out.

You are far too intelligent to not see the paralleled arguments ending the same way.

Educate concerning birth control, as well as allow abortion for mistakes, or deal with disease, starvation, and war from over-population.

An attempt to help the already born is much more difficult than to talk about helping “The innocent” that are even yet to arrive.
 
Back
Top