Prejudice and Bigotry in Law Enforcement

[arfa brane]

If a black person and a white person both go to college and both go into medicine (0r anything else) and both go to work for the same company in the same town. At retirement time are you saying that, due to racism, there will be a vast difference in their assets?

I think I can say that if a white person walks down a street in a state with open carry laws, with an AR-15 strapped to their back, the outcome will be vastly different than if they were black, when the police arrive.

The police will talk to the white person, but will pull their guns and tell the black person to get down on the ground, is one vastly different outcome.
But that obviously isn't because America is a racist nation.

Yeah . . .

The black person might realise his life is in danger; maybe they wouldn't strap an AR-15 to their back for fear of the police just shooting them instead. But not because America is racist. Oh no.

 

[iceaura]

Here's a comparison between some black guys living in New York who chose not to go to college, and a white guy who made better choices:
The black guys making a bad choice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case
The white guy's take on their bad choices: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cent...ounty_n_5cfc0573e4b0aab91c070dbb?guccounter=1
The white guy made the better choice: https://www.urbanedjournal.org/degree/does-donald-trump-have-college-degree

 

[Seattle]

I think I can say that if a white person walks down a street in a state with open carry laws, with an AR-15 strapped to their back, the outcome will be vastly different than if they were black, when the police arrive.

The police will talk to the white person, but will pull their guns and tell the black person to get down on the ground, is one vastly different outcome.
But that obviously isn't because America is a racist nation.

Yeah . . .

The black person might realise his life is in danger; maybe they wouldn't strap an AR-15 to their back for fear of the police just shooting them instead. But not because America is racist. Oh no.

You watch too much TV. The case of the police isn't the same as the case for the nation. If I was just talking off the top of my head (like you) I'd probably say the police are out of control as well.

That's different than saying "America is a racist country". But with a little more research I'd say that although there are some racist police that's not what's going on overall. Most police aren't racist and even those who are racist aren't going out to kill black people.

The problems with the police are too little training, no ongoing mental evaluations and no independent reviews when things do go wrong. In addition to that there is no independent review to look for how to make things turn out better the next time.

The numbers don't bear out your views. More unarmed white people are killed by police. Of course more black people commit violent crimes so their chances are higher. Out of a population of 350,000,000 "only" 9 unarmed black people have been killed and only 20 unarmed white people have been killed this year.

It's a concern, it's just not the epidemic often portrayed and it's actually more of a police abuse of their authority and a lack of independent review problem.

That's not what you want to hear so ... rant on.

 

[iceaura]

How do you explain the difference between black populations within the U.S. and the great disparities therein?

First, I start a relevant thread.

For a 29 year old, the 1960's is ancient history.

For a 29 year old in the year 2001, what happened to his parents in the 1960s is the primary determinant of his economic status and financial options.
If he's black, for example, his parents had no house equity or other significant investments to borrow on to give him a start. Also, most banks will not loan him money on favorable terms. And he is dealing with the effects of substandard medical and dental care - which have become too expensive to deal with at this stage of his life.
After that and the many other racism-dominated factors (such as whether or not he has a criminal record) have had their influence, he will have passed his legacy on to his children of today - in terms of wealth it will be on average less than than 10% of a white child's legacy, due mostly (the evidence indicates) to the cumulative effects of centuries of racism.

There are some black groups who do much better than others and yet all face (or don't face) the same racism.

No, they didn't.
Look at specific examples, and see for yourself. Start with the demographic distribution of heavy metal poisoning in the US.

You watch too much TV.

Either that or he listens to black people, reads history, reads research reports, etc.

 

[Seattle]

First, I start a relevant thread.

For a 29 year old in the year 2001, what happened to his parents in the 1960s is the primary determinant of his economic status and financial options.
If he's black, for example, his parents had no house equity or other significant investments to borrow on to give him a start. Also, most banks will not loan him money on favorable terms. And he is dealing with the effects of substandard medical and dental care - which have become too expensive to deal with at this stage of his life.
After that and the many other racism-dominated factors (such as whether or not he has a criminal record) have had their influence, he will have passed his legacy on to his children of today - in terms of wealth it will be on average less than than 10% of a white child's legacy, due mostly (the evidence indicates) to the cumulative effects of centuries of racism.

No, they didn't.
Look at specific examples, and see for yourself. Start with the demographic distribution of heavy metal poisoning in the US.

Either that or he listens to black people, reads history, reads research reports, etc.

Not what you want to hear (anecdotal after all) but my next door neighbor is black, in his 60's, has a house which (in Seattle) is worth a lot. His kids (grown) have started small businesses (not high tech but lawn care). He does fine and they do fine.

I cut down a tree in my yard today with a bow saw (slow boat to China) and after it came down he offered over the fence to come over with his chain saw and cut it up in 20 minutes. I thanked him of course.

Yes, it's anecdotal, he is probably an Uncle Tom right and he is my token black but I'm in my 60's, grew up in the South, was in junior high when integration started and the blacks in my school when from 0% to 50/50.

I've lived all over the country, am educated, have met many "blacks" over my life and am not racist in the least, am informed and you really bring very little to the table other than ignorant name calling.

Off topic, how's the new tractor working out?

 

[arfa brane]

The numbers don't bear out your views. More unarmed white people are killed by police. Of course more black people commit violent crimes so their chances are higher.

So that explains the vastly different outcomes between a white person carrying an AR-15 in public, and a black person doing the same thing? The black person can feel comfortable about this though:

Out of a population of 350,000,000 "only" 9 unarmed black people have been killed and only 20 unarmed white people have been killed this year.

So if they fear for their lives because they're black and openly carrying an assault rifle and they know that black people commit more crimes, that's something that isn't backed up by the statistics?
I almost feel like asking why the police don't tell the people they point guns at and tell to get down on the ground, that they have a low statistical chance of being shot . . .
You'd think the police would promote such a helpful bit of information like that.

 

[iceaura]

Not what you want to hear (anecdotal after all) but my next door neighbor is black, in his 60's, has a house which (in Seattle) is worth a lot. His kids (grown) have started small businesses (not high tech but lawn care). He does fine and they do fine.

So?

I've lived all over the country, am educated, have met many "blacks" over my life and am not racist in the least,

If you are not actually racist in person, that's great. But I'm dealing with your posting here - your endless speculations about other people's personal circumstances have made enough of a joke of you that I don't want to emulate the tactic.

You are posting ignorant racist bullshit, reams of it, in this forum. You aren't posting anything else. Now you are telling us about your friendly black neighbor - are you filling out some kind of racism bingo card and feel compelled to check all the boxes?

Do you understand that almost all older black people in the US have racist white neighbors/co-workers/classmates/etc with whom they get along "fine"? An adult black person in the US pretty much has to be able to get along "fine" with white racial bigots - the kind of people who think of women with five different baby daddies whenever they think of black women who aren't physicists.

 

[Seattle]

So?
If you are not actually racist in person, that's great. But I'm dealing with your posting here - your endless speculations about other people's personal circumstances have made enough of a joke of you that I don't want to emulate the tactic.

You are posting ignorant racist bullshit, reams of it, in this forum. You aren't posting anything else. Now you are telling us about your friendly black neighbor - are you filling out some kind of racism bingo card and feel compelled to check all the boxes?

Do you understand that almost all older black people in the US have racist white neighbors/co-workers/classmates/etc with whom they get along "fine"? An adult black person in the US pretty much has to be able to get along "fine" with white racial bigots - the kind of people who think of women with five different baby daddies whenever they think of black women who aren't physicists.

As usual, you offer nothing other than to repeat epithets and very little else.

You're sure that it's impossible to be black in the U.S. and to get ahead, why, because you are sure, that's all. Pretty empty headed but you're a "social warrior", right?

Do you have any practical experience or are you a basement dweller also?

 

[iceaura]

1) But with a little more research I'd say that although there are some racist police that's not what's going on overall. 2) Most police aren't racist and even those who are racist aren't going out to kill black people.

1) Yes, it is what's going on overall. That's the problem - that's why the riots in the streets are going on overall. You need to do some of that research you keep threatening us with.
2) So?
The thing about the rotten apple excuse is this: when the citizen has to deal with the police, they never know whether they are dealing with the bad ones until it's too late. And when it's too late, there's no one they can call - the good cops who would save them from the bad cops are never around, for some reason.

The cop who killed George Floyd had more than a dozen verified complaints of abusive force on his record, several of them overtly racial - he had never been arrested for any of them. All the alleged good cops knew about him - but that didn't help.

Because however many good cops there are, they never seem to be able to do anything about the bad ones. It's almost as if one rotten apple has spoiled the whole barrel.

 

[iceaura]

You're sure that it's impossible to be black in the U.S. and to get ahead, why, because you are sure, that's all.

I'm what?
You say you're educated, but you can't read. I've been posting in very simple English sentences - anyone with a high school education should be able to do better than that.

And anyone with your track record should have learned better than to wander that far out on the limbs of the dumbass tree.

The thread topic - there is one. Try to focus.

 

[Bells]

The is no equality of outcomes because that's not how life works. Blacks are what 14% of the population? Does that mean that 14% of violin players should be black in the absence of any discrimination? Should 14% of all Olympic swimmers be black? How about the diamond trade, should most in that trade be white rather than Jewish?

Is there no legitimate reason for blacks to not have as many assets as whites, or Jews or Asians? Is none of it cultural or individual choices?

How many poor hispanic kids have Air Jordans? How many black women have less money but better cars than white women of the same income bracket? People are individuals and make individual decisions and it's not reasonable to expect equal outcomes.

How many black female physicists are there? If it's not many is that because of racism?

How many tornadoes are there in each country around the world? Most of them are in the American Mid-West. Most of the diamonds are in Africa. These things aren't distributed equally.

People's choices of occupations aren't distributed equally either. Most guys don't go into nursing. You don't end up with equal assets unless you go into higher paying professions in equal numbers. You don't end up with equal assets unless you have smaller families in equal numbers. Those who defer self-gratification end up with more assets.

Those are the largest factors. Yes, if there were smaller differences between black and white assets you could make more valid arguments about history, racism, etc.

In law there is a concept called mitigation of damages. Someone could bump into your car and do a little damage. If you just leave the car there with all the windows open and walk away and it rains for a month and instead of asking for $1,000 in damages for the small dent you ask for $20,000 because your car is now flooded from all the rain the other side will invoke the concept of mitigation of damages. You did nothing to keep the likelihood of further damages down.

If your ancestors were slaves 200 years ago and you weren't able to go to college 60 years ago and they follow you around in the jewelry shop today because they think you might shoplift...that's not "fair" and it might explain why you aren't quite as well of as some white guy. It doesn't explain the 10 to 1 difference.

It may explain 10% of the difference. The 90% of the difference is that you didn't choose to go to college within the last 50 years of affirmative action, college grants, loans, the fact that you work at Costco but have 6 kids and you spend more than you save and you didn't buy a house, etc.

If you are black and that's not what you did. You do have a lot more assets than those numbers are talking about. If you have an education and 2 kids and two income earners in your house...you have a lot more assets than that average black asset number indicates.

There are plenty of white people who went to college, didn't delay self-gratification and retire with very little. It doesn't just show up because one is white.

What does that tell us? That while there is racism it's not nearly enough to explain the disparity. That's leaves personal initiative and decisions.

Bells, do you have roughly the same amount of assets for your age group as every other group in Australia? If so, racism isn't a significant factor for you.

It's the same in the U.S. except the gap is a little wider for all groups because there is more money at the top. The "rich" have a lot more money than everyone. It's not a white or black thing.

There is a difference between saying there is some racism, there is some poverty, there is some unemployment and saying every problem that you have is caused by one of those things rather than by your own choices in life.

All white people don't have the same assets either. That can't be because of racism.

You have clearly not bothered to read anything that was linked, none of the studies and instead, you are still posting the same white supremacist right wing bullshit talking points that are and have been proven false and wrong.

You are racist. Your arguments and your posts have outed you.

And it is deliberate. It's not based on ignorance. It's based on your deliberate desire to be racist. It is insidious as it is repulsive.

You were provided with link after link of why racism is the cause of the disparity. You keep saying it is not and have not offered anything in support of your claims. You haven't bothered to read what was linked. Hence why your racism is so deliberate.

 

[iceaura]

The city of Seattle has the same difficult situation with its police as the city of Minneapolis, if the reports are accurate.
And people there, like the people in Minneapolis, are gradually coming around to the only measure that seems to have any chance of solving the problem:
https://crosscut.com/2020/06/time-abolish-seattle-police-was-yesterday

The thing is, as the advent of the phone camera is making obvious to everyone except the American "conservative", if your "police" are treating people like this you don't have a police force at all, in a technical sense. Police by definition enforce the law and thereby protect the citizenry. Financing vigilantes and organized thugs by taxation does not make police of them.

And if you haven't got a police force, you might as well not pay people to pretend to be police officers. It's an expensive charade, and lots of vigilantes will beat people for free.

 

[Seattle]

The city of Seattle has the same difficult situation with its police as the city of Minneapolis, if the reports are accurate.
And people there, like the people in Minneapolis, are gradually coming around to the only measure that seems to have any chance of solving the problem:
https://crosscut.com/2020/06/time-abolish-seattle-police-was-yesterday

The thing is, as the advent of the phone camera is making obvious to everyone except the American "conservative", if your "police" are treating people like this you don't have a police force at all, in a technical sense. Police by definition enforce the law and thereby protect the citizenry. Financing vigilantes and organized thugs by taxation does not make police of them.

And if you haven't got a police force, you might as well not pay people to pretend to be police officers. It's an expensive charade, and lots of vigilantes will beat people for free.

That's the problem. More vigilantes will beat people for free. You might even get a beating and then you'd actually have something to complain about.

 

[Seattle]

You have clearly not bothered to read anything that was linked, none of the studies and instead, you are still posting the same white supremacist right wing bullshit talking points that are and have been proven false and wrong.

You are racist. Your arguments and your posts have outed you.

And it is deliberate. It's not based on ignorance. It's based on your deliberate desire to be racist. It is insidious as it is repulsive.

You were provided with link after link of why racism is the cause of the disparity. You keep saying it is not and have not offered anything in support of your claims. You haven't bothered to read what was linked. Hence why your racism is so deliberate.

All you've got going for you is repeating "racist". Posting 10 links isn't making an argument. You haven't addressed any question that I've asked in any of my responses to you.

That's generally what you do in your responses to anyone's post. Intolerant name calling is what you've got and that's not a lot.

 

[pjdude1219]

It's "you're" not "your".

ah yes grammar nazidom the last refugee of anyone who doesn't have an argument. doesn't change the point you are racist and classist as all hell.

 

[pjdude1219]

You are making a response to me, you don't need to refer to me in the third person.

If a black person and a white person both go to college and both go into medicine (0r anything else) and both go to work for the same company in the same town. At retirement time are you saying that, due to racism, there will be a vast difference in their assets?

Your running commentary does nothing to bolster your weak arguments...troll, racist, this guy, you can't make this shit up, etc.

That really seems to be all you have. Could that be because you don't really know what you are talking about and it's just bitterness and emotion speaking?

you talk a lot of shit from someone whose entire argument is predicated on pretending the gini coefficient isn't a thing.

 

[Seattle]

you talk a lot of shit from someone whose entire argument is predicated on pretending the gini coefficient isn't a thing.

I don't "pretend" that income inequality doesn't exist. Outcomes are guaranteed to be equal. If you work at Walmart and I'm an engineer, incomes aren't going to be equal nor should anyone expect them to be. A black person working at Walmart makes what a white person makes at Walmart (with the same experience level).

You are the one, apparently, talking a lot of shit as you so eloquently put it.

 

[Seattle]

ah yes grammar nazidom the last refugee of anyone who doesn't have an argument. doesn't change the point you are racist and classist as all hell.

I have plenty of arguments as you've noticed. You on the other hand have vulgarity.

 

[parmalee]

Not a lot to laugh about here, but at least this was funny:

This isn't exactly an intellectual bunch.

Says the guys who certainly seems to struggle with reading comprehension, and cannot paraphrase another poster's words if his life depended on it.

So, again, do you have any evidence or citations, at all, to support your supposed "arguments" here? 'Cuz all I'm seeing is this:

I posted a video where some of these issues are discussed by very intelligent people in a very non-confrontational and nuanced way...no one responded.

Once again, this is a discussion forum: people generally don't bother responding to YouTube videos presented as "argument."

 

[iceaura]

That's the problem. More vigilantes will beat people for free. You might even get a beating and then you'd actually have something to complain about.

So you do recognize that the people getting beaten by vigilantes have legitimate complaints.
Progress.
Now all you have to do is recognize that those uniformed guys who are beating people are supposed to be policemen - they are drawing a paycheck on the presumption that they are enforcing the law. So whoever is paying them should stop paying them, and find better uses for their money - such as reducing crime, and seeing that laws are enforced.

Posting 10 links isn't making an argument.

Yeah, it was.
They were links to evidence of realities that conflicted with your assertions, in posts combined with reasoning that conflicted with your claims, and since you have provided no evidence in support of your assertions and no reasoning in support of your claims they (and several others) currently hold the floor.

I have plenty of arguments as you've noticed.

Citation required. Where are these "arguments" we are supposed to have noticed?