Polygamy

[jayleew]

For an alternative interpretation of Matthew 5:27-28, see this article.
You might want to bookmark that site getts - Liberated Christians.

To jayleew:
In all sincerity, I hope you see things from a different perspective some day.

The problem with many Christians and non-Christians is they take scripture out of context of the whole Bible. Throughout the entire Bible, the laws are consistent. If your interpretation conflicts with the whole of the Bible, you can know that it is wrong. The problem with this website's interpretation is that it conflicts with the idea of marriage and unions which was established in Genesis. And the idea of proper sexual activity is established over and over in other parts of scripture with the word "fornication."
http://www.yrm.org/qna-fornication.htm

I am curious how that original text corresponds to the "adultery" that Moses used. Furthermore, the most accurate word-for-word translation of the Bible today is NASB, which puts the word adultery, which is defined as having sex with someone other than one's legal spouse.

We are also taught to be sober and have self-control. Any many who is sexed up wiht more than one sexual partner is not sober, I have had only one sex partner besides myself, so I know what it is like to be sexed up. Much worse would I have been if I had more than one partner.

The less sex you have, the more sober you are, but Paul said that some cannot live without, and so they should marry and have sex with his wife so that you will not commit fornication. Marriage is for companionship, procreation, and to resist fornications and adultery.

Jesus came to set son against father, and the division is caused by conflicting religious beliefs. You will find many interpretations of the Bible. The only one that is correct is the one that maintains consistency with the rest of the Bible. So you see, one cannot pull from Matthew without taking Matthew in context of Genesis and vice versa.

If God had meant for us to have intercourse with someone other than our wife, he would have given Adam two wives. Abraham didn't have a clue what he was doing. He stepped into the grey area, and Jacob crossed the line. By the way, how many characters in the Bible had more than one wife? You will see that they are direct descendants of Abraham.

There are so many scriptures that point against this interpretation you have given that it is invalid. This yet another attempt to twist the scriptures to justify man's actions. This is not a new trick.

 

[jayleew]

Mormons are <a href='http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/answer/0,9777,1601-1-55-16,00.html'>Christians</a>

False.
Mormons believe in most things that Bible has to say, that is true. But it goes deeper.
Let me illucidate Mormonism, for even Mormons do not know all that is in the book of Mormon.

First of all Joseph Smith Jr. (1805-1844) founded the Church in 1830 in New York. He claimed to have found some golden tablets, but the evidence is heresay. The tablets he wrote were enhanced copies of the King James version. Sometimes, they follow word-for-word.

They believe that God the Father was once a man just like you and I. He "progresed" to godhood just like we can. He has a physical body, as does his wife (Heavenly Mother). There is no Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Instead, they are seperate gods. Worthy men may one day become gods themselves. Doesn't that sound exciting!

They believe that Jesus is a seperate god from the Father (Elohim). He was created as a spirit child by the Father and Mother in Heaven, and is the "elder brother" of all men and spirit beings. His body was created through sexual union between Elohim and Mary. Jesus was married. His death on the cross does not provide full atonement for all sin, but does provide everyone with resurrection.

They believe that the Holy Spirit is different from the Holy Ghost. The "holy spirit" they speak of is not God, but is an influence or electricity-like emanation from God (or "light of Christ").

They believe that you are resurrected by grace, but saved (exalted to godhood) by works, including faithfulness to church leaders, Mormon baptism, tithing, ordination, marriage, and secret temple rituals. No eternal life without Mormon membership.

They believe that eventually nearly everyone goes to one of three seperate heavenly "kingdoms," with some achieving godhood. Apostates and murderers got to "outer darkness."

In short, Mormonism is a cult. They believe in the Bible's teachings, but their definition of God is not the definition of God in the Bible.

 

[getts]

Let's get something straight about adultery.

Matthew 19:9 gives the exception of a man divorcing his wife because of sexual immorality. It does not address a woman divorcing her husband because of sexual immorality. In fact, both passages that give the "exception clause" (i.e. Matthew 5:32 & 19:9) end stating adultery has been committed if a divorced woman is married.

. . . and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

. . . and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery. (Matthew 19:9)

Scripture does not give a woman permission to divorce her husband. Even under the law, it was the men who were permitted to divorce their wives (Deuteronomy 24:1; Matthew 19:8), not the women. Some might argue that a woman has the right to divorce her husband if he is sexually immoral. Scripture nowhere says any such thing. Jesus said no such thing.

Moreover, the very passages that would most likely be used to justify such a conclusion (Matthew 5:32 & 19:9), end stating any one who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Therefore, Scripture teaches that a divorced woman involves herself in adultery whether her husband was sexually immoral or not. Because, Jesus says repeatedly (four times, Matthew 5:32; 19:9; Mark 10:12; Luke 16:18) marrying a divorced woman constitutes adultery.

In marriage, women are not viewed in the same way as men are. For example, in the law, if a married man (or unmarried man) had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, he would simply have to marry her or at least pay the bride price (Exodus 22:16-17). This act is never called adultery, even though he had sex with another woman. If a married woman had sex with any man other than her husband (Numbers 5:20), if it was concealed and there were no witnesses against her (Numbers 5:12-13) she would be cursed (Numbers 5:27). If there were witnesses against her (Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:15), she would be killed, along with the man (Leviticus 20:10). Scripture calls it defilement (Leviticus 18:20; Numbers 5:13, 20) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10) when a married woman has sex with a man other than her husband, whether the other man is married or not. For the married man, it is only viewed as adultery if he has sex with a married or betrothed woman (Deuteronomy 22:22-24, note verse 24 "wife"). If he had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, this is not called adultery (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). It is evident, in the law, that marriage for the woman is not exactly the same as marriage for the man.

Moreover, in Romans 7:2-3 Paul writes,

For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Here we have a case in which a woman is married to two men. There is no divorce in this passage. It is simply the case of a woman having two husbands. This is called polyandry, and it is clearly depicted as evil; because such a woman would rightly be called an adulteress (Romans 7:3). No such teaching is given for the man.

On the contrary, a man could have two (or more) wives, yet he would not be committing adultery. Polygyny (a man having more than one wife) is never condemned in Scripture. Polygamy for the man is never described to be an adulterous relationship. Polygamy for the woman is (Romans 7:2-3). Polygamy for the married man in the law, under certain circumstances, was actually commanded (Deuteronomy 22:28-29; 25:5-10; see our report on Polygamy). Polygamy for the woman is strictly forbidden (Romans 7:2-3).

 

[getts]

If God had meant for us to have intercourse with someone other than our wife, he would have given Adam two wives. Abraham didn't have a clue what he was doing. He stepped into the grey area, and Jacob crossed the line. By the way, how many characters in the Bible had more than one wife? You will see that they are direct descendants of Abraham.

Lamech had 2 wives.....he was born before Abraham.....how can he be a direct descendant of Abraham?????? See, I find it hard to accept your ideas when you obviously just spout stuff off with out truly researching it....Why is that?

And, how about Leviticus 18? These are not 'Laws of Moses', because in verse 4 and 5 - 4'You are to perform My judgments and keep My statutes, to live in accord with them; (D)I am the LORD your God. 5'So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, (E)by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD. - God clearly states that this is him speaking.

Then in verse 18 he does not condemn polygyny, but rather governs it....
18'You shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a rival while she is alive, to uncover her nakedness.

Here is a list of polygynists.....43 in all. I take it you have done the research on all of their family trees to ensure that they are all direct descendants of Abraham......This is a fairly comprehensive listing....it may or may not be all inclusive.

Abdon, Abijah, Ahab, Ahasuerus, Ashur, Belshazzar, Caleb, David, Eliphaz, Elkanah, Esau, Ezra, Gideon, Heman, Herod the Great, Hezron, Hosea, Ibzan,
Jacob( father of the twelve patriarchs of the tribes of Israel & "the prince of God"), Jair, Jerahmeel, Jehoiachin, Jehoram, Jeroboam, Jerubbaall, Joash, Joseph, Judah, Lamech, Machir, Manasseh, Mered, Moses, Nahor, Rehoboam, Saul, Shaharaim, Shimei, Simeon, Solomon, Terah, Zedekiah, Ziba

 

[jayleew]

Let's get something straight about adultery.

Matthew 19:9 gives the exception of a man divorcing his wife because of sexual immorality. It does not address a woman divorcing her husband because of sexual immorality. In fact, both passages that give the "exception clause" (i.e. Matthew 5:32 & 19:9) end stating adultery has been committed if a divorced woman is married.

. . . and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. (Matthew 5:32)

. . . and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery. (Matthew 19:9)

Scripture does not give a woman permission to divorce her husband. Even under the law, it was the men who were permitted to divorce their wives (Deuteronomy 24:1; Matthew 19:8), not the women. Some might argue that a woman has the right to divorce her husband if he is sexually immoral. Scripture nowhere says any such thing. Jesus said no such thing.

Paul said it from the Lord:
1 Corinthians 7:
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

In marriage, women are not viewed in the same way as men are. For example, in the law, if a married man (or unmarried man) had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, he would simply have to marry her or at least pay the bride price (Exodus 22:16-17). This act is never called adultery, even though he had sex with another woman.

Yes, this is the law of Moses.

If a married woman had sex with any man other than her husband (Numbers 5:20), if it was concealed and there were no witnesses against her (Numbers 5:12-13) she would be cursed (Numbers 5:27). If there were witnesses against her (Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:15), she would be killed, along with the man (Leviticus 20:10). Scripture calls it defilement (Leviticus 18:20; Numbers 5:13, 20) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10) when a married woman has sex with a man other than her husband, whether the other man is married or not. For the married man, it is only viewed as adultery if he has sex with a married or betrothed woman (Deuteronomy 22:22-24, note verse 24 "wife"). If he had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, this is not called adultery (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). It is evident, in the law, that marriage for the woman is not exactly the same as marriage for the man.

No, it is evident that the law views married women and virgins differently. The huge problem with commiting adultery is in Matthew that we have stated.

Moreover, in Romans 7:2-3 Paul writes,

For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Here we have a case in which a woman is married to two men.

No, in death she is free from that law. The law of marriage. She is not married, but a widow.

On the contrary, a man could have two (or more) wives, yet he would not be committing adultery. Polygyny (a man having more than one wife) is never condemned in Scripture. Polygamy for the man is never described to be an adulterous relationship. Polygamy for the woman is (Romans 7:2-3). Polygamy for the married man in the law, under certain circumstances, was actually commanded (Deuteronomy 22:28-29; 25:5-10; see our report on Polygamy). Polygamy for the woman is strictly forbidden (Romans 7:2-3).

Yes, Deuteronomy does give some weight to Polygamy. It is something I wouldn't touch because I would rather error on the side of God and not take the apple. I acknowledge that Deuteronomy gives weight to polygamy. For it to apply to your case you would have to be married to the other sex partner you have. Are you married to more than one? I am afraid that you are not married to two women. Define swinger. Define adulterer.

Swinger: someone who has sexual realations with more than one partner.
Adulterer: someone who has sexual relations with more than one partner which is not their spouse.

You have a wife, so the second applies. Actually, we know from Genesis that once you have sex with a woman, you are one already and married without telling God in ceremony. So, I suppose if the other person you are with is faithful to you, you have a polygamous relationship. Is this the case? If she is not married and a virgin, I have no case against you by scriptures that I know.

 

[getts]

OK, with the biblical diefinition of marriage (as you so succiently described in your last paragraph) I am not sinning....

If your wife cheated on you, would you be commiting adultery, or would she? So when you state "If the other person you are with is faithful to you..." should not come into play, should it? Where does the spouses fidelity affect your standing with God?

 

[jayleew]

Lamech had 2 wives.....he was born before Abraham.....how can he be a direct descendant of Abraham?????? See, I find it hard to accept your ideas when you obviously just spout stuff off with out truly researching it....Why is that?

I researched concubinage and that was the first act of concubinage. Polygamy was more heavy after Abraham. I did not need anything before Abraham, my bad.

As I have been saying, I have no case if you are in a polygamous relationship. But the evidence for polygamy is small, so I personally choose not to live that way, both from fear and out of sacrifice. But unless the women you speak of are faithful to you alone, and have always been, then you are not in a polygamous relationship.

[/QUOTE]

 

[getts]

So, again, if your wife cheated on you.....and you were unaware of it, you would be living in adultery???

 

[jayleew]

OK, with the biblical diefinition of marriage (as you so succiently described in your last paragraph) I am not sinning....

If your wife cheated on you, would you be commiting adultery, or would she? So when you state "If the other person you are with is faithful to you..." should not come into play, should it? Where does the spouses fidelity affect your standing with God?

No, the scripture we have discussed says that we are free from the contract of marriage in case of infidelity.

If the other person you are with is not faithful to you, and is not married to you (but to another man who she is joined to), then you are not married to that person. Marriage implies a contract of faithfulness on both parties. Once that other person is not faithful, you are loosed from the contract and are not married to that person. So, if you have that person again after you are not married, you are an adulterer. Lest, they confess and repent, the sin is not forgotten.

Your spouse's fidelity affects your standing with God if you choose to have an affair with the spouse after they have become an adulterer and does not repent. It is no better than a bedding a whore.

Polygamy has only one definition. You cannot change it to fit your own needs. It is marriage to more than one spouse, and marriage is a contract and a pledge to be married and be faithful. If one party breaks the contract, then the marriage is no longer and the person who broke it is an adulterer.

 

[jayleew]

So, again, if your wife cheated on you.....and you were unaware of it, you would be living in adultery???

Unfortunately.

My goodness, you are attempting to make marriage non-existent and adultery non-existent. What is your definition of adultery? What is your definition of marriage?

What is the difference between having a swinging relationship with a few and a swinging relationship with a hundred? As long as your wife says it's okay, there is no difference?

By your definition, just go ahead and have sex as much as you want with as many as you want. As long as your wife says it's okay and is present. Where and why do you draw the line? Why stop with a few? What's one more? If your wife says it's okay with a few and not with several, then you are following your wife's ethics and not God's.

By your definition, there is no such thing as adultery.

How can someone commit adultery? I will just go have sex with another person once in awhile. If my wife says it's okay, then I'm not commiting adultery. So, your wife is your God then?

It is impossible to commit adultery by your standards and Jesus and everyone else just messed up with that gibberish.

 

[getts]

No, it is not impossible to commit adultery....You still did not answer my question.

So, again, if your wife cheated on you.....and you were unaware of it, you would be living in adultery???

 

[SpyMoose]

False.
Mormons believe in most things that Bible has to say, that is true. But it goes deeper.

First of all Joseph Smith Jr. (1805-1844) founded the Church in 1830 in New York. He claimed to have found some golden tablets, but the evidence is heresay. The tablets he wrote were enhanced copies of the King James version. Sometimes, they follow word-for-word.

They believe ...
They believe ...
They believe ...
They believe ...
They believe ...

In short, Mormonism is a cult. They believe in the Bible's teachings, but their definition of God is not the definition of God in the Bible.

Theists are so cute when they get upset! So let me get this strait... They worship Jesus and call themselves Christians, and they read the bible, and they even obey some of those dietary laws that most Christians haven’t even read, but they aren’t Christians... because you say so? Who else isn't a Christian? The pope? Who is a real Christian? Jack Chick? Jerry Fallwell?

Were you aware that the bible had become corrupted through miss-recordings and miss-translations and that Mormonism is the direct result of the restoration, or gods re-assertion of his divine truths onto our lives?

That sounds just as convincingly insane to me as other Christian beliefs, why are you more a Christian than they are? They can quote to me from the bible to support their bizarre behavior as well!

 

[Baron Max]

So, again, if your wife cheated on you.....and you were unaware of it, you would be living in adultery???

Sure! Adultery is the crime/sin, but it has nothing to do with who knows it ...other than the perpetrators, of course!

Baron Max

 

[SpyMoose]

Sure! Adultery is the crime/sin, but it has nothing to do with who knows it ...other than the perpetrators, of course!

Baron Max

Baron, I don't think you quite understand the point of contention. Gett's is trying to determine if Jayleew understands that he is saying that if your spouse cheats, you are an adulterer.

It doesn’t seem very fair, after all, that if you spouse breaks a commandment behind your back you go to hell too.

 

[okinrus]

Theists are so cute when they get upset! So let me get this strait... They worship Jesus and call themselves Christians, and they read the bible, and they even obey some of those dietary laws that most Christians haven?t even read, but they aren?t Christians... because you say so? Who else isn't a Christian? The pope? Who is a real Christian? Jack Chick? Jerry Fallwell?

Spymoose, people use names in order to express themselves. If everyone was called a Christian, the word Christian wouldn't mean anything.

No, the scripture we have discussed says that we are free from the contract of marriage in case of infidelity.

jaylee, the marriage isn't disolved if the spouse commits adultry. (This follows from not breaking what God has not broken, which is in the NT.) It's grounds for separation but not for divorce.

Matthew 19:9 gives the exception of a man divorcing his wife because of sexual immorality. It does not address a woman divorcing her husband because of sexual immorality. In fact, both passages that give the "exception clause" (i.e. Matthew 5:32 & 19:9) end stating adultery has been committed if a divorced woman is married.

getts, my quotations: "But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." usccb KJV: "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. " The exception clause is basically proving the marriage never really existed.

Your points about how men and women were treated differently under the OT are no longer valid. Because men and women are equal under Christ, they're judged equally. I don see the reason for this line of arguing. If what Christ argued was correct about divorce and adultry were correct, then it ought to hold for both man and woman.

 

[jayleew]

Theists are so cute when they get upset! So let me get this strait... They worship Jesus and call themselves Christians, and they read the bible, and they even obey some of those dietary laws that most Christians haven’t even read, but they aren’t Christians... because you say so? Who else isn't a Christian? The pope? Who is a real Christian? Jack Chick? Jerry Fallwell?

Were you aware that the bible had become corrupted through miss-recordings and miss-translations and that Mormonism is the direct result of the restoration, or gods re-assertion of his divine truths onto our lives?

That sounds just as convincingly insane to me as other Christian beliefs, why are you more a Christian than they are? They can quote to me from the bible to support their bizarre behavior as well!

I'm not upset, I'm appalled at your statement that Mormons are Christians. It is just not true. Regardless of if they are restored truths, the restored truth is not the same as the Christian truth. Mormonism the same? Get real. Mormonism is an insult to human intelligence. The problem is is that most Mormons have not read the whole book of Mormon.

 

[Hapsburg]

I see no problem with Polygamy.
More wives/mates = higher likeliness of concieving a child.

 

[jayleew]

No, it is not impossible to commit adultery....You still did not answer my question.

So, again, if your wife cheated on you.....and you were unaware of it, you would be living in adultery???

No. If you knowingly consent to a sexual relationship with an adulterer, then it becomes sin.

If my wife cheated on me and never confessed, it is only her sin.

It is the same as if my son murdered someone and never confessed, it is only his sin. When he tells me he did, and I approve of it (or maybe just turn a blind eye) and perhaps murder with him, it is my sin.
Life and the Christian walk is about choices.

 

[SpyMoose]

I'm not upset, I'm appalled at your statement that Mormons are Christians. It is just not true. Regardless of if they are restored truths, the restored truth is not the same as the Christian truth. Mormonism the same? Get real. Mormonism is an insult to human intelligence. The problem is is that most Mormons have not read the whole book of Mormon.

To tell the truth I love this argument and use it frequently because its one in which many Christians arn't embarassed to be complete and unapologetic bigots. To any observer it is patently obvious that Mormons are Christians, but that sectarian hatred makes some of the other devout say hilarious things.

 

[getts]

No. If you knowingly consent to a sexual relationship with an adulterer, then it becomes sin.

If my wife cheated on me and never confessed, it is only her sin.

It is the same as if my son murdered someone and never confessed, it is only his sin. When he tells me he did, and I approve of it (or maybe just turn a blind eye) and perhaps murder with him, it is my sin.
Life and the Christian walk is about choices.

So, you statement about 'if the woman you swing with is faithful to you, you are in the clear' (paraphrased) is not neccessarily true, huh? What she does doesn't really affect me, right?