Pearl Harbor, foreshadowing 9/11

[fedr808]

And youve done what is called assuming. Sorry, probably does not cut it.



Wrong. The American people as a whole did not want ANYTHING to do with WWII prior to Pearl Harbor. Even though Britain needed help desperately, our isolationist population genuinely felt this war had nothing to do with us because we were on the other side of the planet.



It is not the logical and obvious thing to do when your goal is to invoke the strongest emotional reaction possible from US citizens.

Also if the US had shown any sort of prior knowledge (such as preparing for the attack) and allowed it to happen anyway would definitely appear more suspicious then just letting the attacks happen and then claiming ignorance.



I was not aware of any battles between us and Japanese/Chinese BEFORE we entered the war (other than PH). Please provide the links unless your making this up.



Again no one is disputing the authenticity of the documents except you. You cannot just dismiss evidence because of your inability to accept it as fact.



This is nothing but pure speculation. Maybe you should throw a probably in there, like you did with your other assumptions.

Dude the only reason why there are no experts against this conspiracy is because none of them wanna waste their time on crap.
This conspiracy is a speculation. It is not fact. There is no hard evidence
Your supposed documents or letters ARE FORGED there is no reason why the US government would have released them. The freedom of information act doesnt do anything to help your case. There is no proof whatsoever that those letters are real besides your other make believe experts. Ive heard things that military personel revealed them, private first class joe would not know anything about any conspiracy do not make this up.

Do not take quotes in the wrong context. It is making an ass out of you. This general said that quote as a referance saying that Japan may have done damage but did not send the US out of the war.


In mid 1937 Japan attacked China. The US and Russia provided assistance. Although it were minimal.

Every WWII expert knows about the Japanese attack on China.

All of your arguements are that these powerful men were dumbasses and sublimanaly revealed their intention through these forged letters, misinterpreted speeches, and more. You guys are smearin the names of some of the greatest people in the world so get a life.

And once more unless they broke the cypher no conspiracy could be made.

 

[EndLightEnd]

Your supposed documents or letters ARE FORGED there is no reason why the US government would have released them.

Unless you can PROVE they are forgeries you must accept them at face value. That is how evidence works. And the reason the documents were released is called the Freedom of Information Act.

There is no proof whatsoever that those letters are real besides your other make believe experts. Ive heard things that military personel revealed them, private first class joe would not know anything about any conspiracy do not make this up.

What specifically about the documents lead you to the conclusion that they are fake? Was it that they contained information that you dont believe to be true? Does that make it fake?

Again those are real documents and now the burden is on you to PROVE they are fakes.

In mid 1937 Japan attacked China. The US and Russia provided assistance. Although it were minimal.

Every WWII expert knows about the Japanese attack on China.

Please provide links (as originally asked) to expert information on this event.

 

[fedr808]

Unless you can PROVE they are forgeries you must accept them at face value. That is how evidence works. And the reason the documents were released is called the Freedom of Information Act.



What specifically about the documents lead you to the conclusion that they are fake? Was it that they contained information that you dont believe to be true? Does that make it fake?

Again those are real documents and now the burden is on you to PROVE they are fakes.



Please provide links (as originally asked) to expert information on this event.

One they are forgeries the fact that you did not read and do research on the freedom of information act means you are weak minded in the area of law.
The freedom of information act does not apply to top secret or secretive documents. These documents are top secret and are not required to be released. If the government officially released such documents there would be an enormous investigation which there wasn't. They are total make believe.

What proof do you have that they were real? What that they were made by type writer? You have no real proof that these documents are legitimate in any which way.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/WorldWar2/china.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_Japan_attack_China
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Japan_attack_China_in_World_War_2
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005155

 

[fedr808]

Now the fact that NONE of you knew this fact is pathetically sad. why did u guys think we set and embargo on Japan? For the fun of it? No because they were attacking our allies duh.

 

[fedr808]

Ummm, you just helped the FDR "Conspiracy"(gimme a break - he wanted the U.S IN and everyone knows it) Argument.

The Carriers were out to sea most of the time in fall 1941. They were not in port at the time of the attack. Mostly, the obsolete(as you pointed out) Battleships were nicely lined up like ducks in a row, at Pearl.

Obselote as compared to the 21st century you moron. They were top of the line for their time. Once more taking a quote out of conext and making up shit out of it.

 

[scott3x]

Obselote as compared to the 21st century you moron. They were top of the line for their time. Once more taking a quote out of conext and making up shit out of it.

fedr, using coarse insults on people who disagree with you doesn't help your case. Anyway, you may want to read the following, which is an excerpt from a site called Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies:

In November FDR ordered the Red Cross Disaster Relief director to secretly prepare for massive casualties at Pearl Harbor because he was going to let it be attacked. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that "the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack [sic] within their own borders." See U.S. Naval Institute - Naval History - Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection by Daryl S. Borgquist
[unfortunately you need a subscription in order to see it]

CHURCHILL wrote FDR KNEW. Did FDR know that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese target? Answer: FDR planned Pearl Harbor to be their target. He ordered the ships in and the carriers out. Co-conspirator Churchill wrote about the Pearl Harbor attack that FDR and his top advisers "knew the full and immediate purpose of their enemy." (GRAND ALLIANCE p 603) Churchill's entire discussion of Pearl Harbor was a justification of treason, e.g.: "A Japanese attack upon the U.S. was a vast simplification of (FDR's and advisors') problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united...?" Now why would Churchill bother to defend treason unless it happened?

J. Edgar Hoover told his friends in early 1942 that FDR had known about the Pearl Harbor plan since the early fall. It was totally in character for FDR to concoct such a plan. Not only had the US Senate already censured FDR for utterly lacking moral perspective, but as Walter Lippmann wrote: "his purposes are not simple and his methods are not direct."

 

[fedr808]

fedr, using coarse insults on people who disagree with you doesn't help your case. Anyway, you may want to read the following, which is an excerpt from a site called Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies:

In November FDR ordered the Red Cross Disaster Relief director to secretly prepare for massive casualties at Pearl Harbor because he was going to let it be attacked. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that "the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack [sic] within their own borders." See U.S. Naval Institute - Naval History - Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection by Daryl S. Borgquist
[unfortunately you need a subscription in order to see it]

CHURCHILL wrote FDR KNEW. Did FDR know that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese target? Answer: FDR planned Pearl Harbor to be their target. He ordered the ships in and the carriers out. Co-conspirator Churchill wrote about the Pearl Harbor attack that FDR and his top advisers "knew the full and immediate purpose of their enemy." (GRAND ALLIANCE p 603) Churchill's entire discussion of Pearl Harbor was a justification of treason, e.g.: "A Japanese attack upon the U.S. was a vast simplification of (FDR's and advisors') problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united...?" Now why would Churchill bother to defend treason unless it happened?

J. Edgar Hoover told his friends in early 1942 that FDR had known about the Pearl Harbor plan since the early fall. It was totally in character for FDR to concoct such a plan. Not only had the US Senate already censured FDR for utterly lacking moral perspective, but as Walter Lippmann wrote: "his purposes are not simple and his methods are not direct."

Once more how did you guys legitimately get said letters? The freedom of information act does not apply to them. Seriously none of those letters would have been released legaly. There is no concrete evidence that those letters are real.

They are about as real as me makin a letter that said that i got all of the Rockefeller money, addressing it to myself and posting the return address to some reockefeller estate, there is no concrete evidence that it is real.

Think about it you guys, if the government really legally released those letters this debate would have been over before it started.


Also you guys, how did the US navy know where the Japanese fleet was without cracking the cypher. Without cracking it there would be no knowledge of the Japanese fleet's position whatsoever.

Other than these letters which could not have been legally obtained you guys have no concrete evidence whatsoever. If you guys really want to prove your point justify it with some real hardcore evidence.

Also im surprised you guys haven't mentioned the switch board operator on the island i had a whole reply planned for that.



AND STOP QUOTING THAT WEBSITE, IT IS MADE BY SOME MANIAC THAT PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED AND STABBED AND NEARLY KILLED HIS SISTER. I will refuse to believe such nonsense from a jailed criminal rather than an expert. Now get some REAL EVIDENCE.

 

[EndLightEnd]

Now get some REAL EVIDENCE.

The evidence is there you just think its fake. And you are alone in this belief. Even other people on your side who do not think there was any pre-knowledge to Pearl Harbor arent disputing the authenticity of the documents.

It seems this is a game debunkers like to play. No matter what evidence is brought to the table all the skeptics cry is "thats not real". Whether it be video, audio, or even direct government documents, no evidence will ever be good enough for you fedr because your mind was made up before this discussion began.

You cannot begin to learn about something until you unlearn everything you think you know about it. Meaning you cannot really educate yourself until you let go of past conceptions which cloud and direct trains of thought down particular avenues.

 

[fedr808]

The evidence is there you just think its fake. And you are alone in this belief. Even other people on your side who do not think there was any pre-knowledge to Pearl Harbor arent disputing the authenticity of the documents.

It seems this is a game debunkers like to play. No matter what evidence is brought to the table all the skeptics cry is "thats not real". Whether it be video, audio, or even direct government documents, no evidence will ever be good enough for you fedr because your mind was made up before this discussion began.

You cannot begin to learn about something until you unlearn everything you think you know about it. Meaning you cannot really educate yourself until you let go of past conceptions which cloud and direct trains of thought down particular avenues.

That letter is forged and you cannot prove it is legitament.

Ive proven:
The freedom of information act does not apply to it
That the letter is classified as top secret
That the embargo was issued well prior to you forged document was sent
And that you guys are quoting, maniacs, killers, and criminals

Your letter is a piece of paper worth nothing
There is no evidence of it's authenticity.
If i made an account called electrofixiation and said you guys were dumb as rocks (im NOT saying you are im just using as an example) would you guys believe me? Was there any proof that the real electro siad that other than i copied his name


There is no possible way that that letter could have ever ever ever ever ever ever been legally obtained. It is top secret and the freedom of information act does not apply.

And for people that claim to be skeptics have you guys never questioned the fact that everything in the letter was completed by the US government to the very word? This letter is too perfect for your case.

I hate to use an example from something fictional but here it is. On an episode of House a patient comes in with, lung problems,liver problems, kidney problems, etc. He had every single symptom of doing drugs which was like 18 symptoms. House states, something like if you have 5 of the 18 symptoms your a dru addict, when you have all of them it is too perfect and it must be something else and it was.

Think you guys how hard would it be to forge this letter? You could make up some guys name, hardly anybody would care enough to look him up. You could use an old typewriter. You could put in the date. And if you knew what the US did to Japan prior to Pearl Harbor it is a piece of cake. It would be tons easier to forge this document than to get the real one


YOU GUYS HAVE NOT STATED ONE LEGITAMENT PIECE OF EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THIS LETTER IS REAL.

It is like trying to prove that a guy committed murder and the only evidence being is he owns a pistol, you do not even know what kind of weapon killed the person, it might not have even been a gun. You guys are trying to do that with this letter.

Have you guys ever trusted a person straight to his word? If someone told you i jumped off the grand canyon hit the bottom at 140 m/s and survived would you believe them? Or some other ridiculous claim? If you would'nt why would you trust a piece of paper.

This piece of paper is just too perfect. And if it were true why hasn't there been some big newspaper article about it? Or some mention of it in history textbooks? The reason why is because the experts do not find it to be legitament it is not just dumb luck.

 

[Syzygys]

If FDR knew this he could've ambushed them right then and there.

Except the slight problem of the fact that Japan and the US weren't at war.

Guys, the problem is really simple. It is OBVIOUS that the US government KNEW about the upcoming attack, but they need it for a casus beli. Now, did they expect such a big blow? For sure, they didn't, the Japanese simply got lucky on that day:

1. The sinking of the Japanese submarine that morning should have alerted the commanders in Pearl Harbour.
2. The radar system although new, correctly showed the incoming planes, but they thought they were Americans.
3. The sinking of the Arizona was pure luck, that the bomb found its way to the ammunition room.

Here is an alternative scenario that easily could have happened:

After sinking the sub, pearl Harbour is on alert. Once the incoming japanese planes are spotted, the port goes on FULL alert, planes start to take off. Then we have a decent battle between two equal forces without surprise. The Arizona doesn't get destroyed, just damaged, the outcome of the battle is a 50-50 with much less US casualties and more Japanese one.

The US gets its casus beli and its reason to go to war, the battle could even be called a win.

Could it have happened? Sure. In this version the behaviour of the US government is much less evil and quite understandable. They simply didn't expect such a big blow, but they did need an attack for entering the war...

 

[Syzygys]

Oh and by the way the same happened with 911. Without the towers falling the casualties would have been under 500-800, still a lot but a full passenger airline going down by accident can cause the same number of casualties. Who knew the towers would fall?

Here is an alternate scenario for 911:

Neither of the 2 planes make it to the towers due to the pilots' inexperience, or they miss the buildings. They hit the ground or some less signifficant target. The whole number of casualties is around 500. It still would have given the casus beli for the US government for the war on terror, but would have caused less damage to the American psyche...

 

[fedr808]

Actually the only people whom had ever succesfully fought Japanese zero's prior to Pearl Harbor were American air crews in China fighting Japan. They wrote up their strategies including details of the Zero.

The zero was an amazing plane, it could out turn anything out there by an incredible margin.

The strategy was to start high then dive down towards the enemy plane, shoot at it, if you hit it they were so weakly armored it was practically 5 shots and they were screwed. If you missed you were just supposed to put on as much speed as you can going forwards cause they could be outrun.

Specifically you cannot try and turn back to get another shot they second you did that you lost.

The American command thought this was so overexaggerated it cannot be true no plane can turn that well. Well even if the American planes got into the air the zero's really would never have had any problems shooting them down.

 

[fedr808]

Prove to me the letter is true.

 

[Syzygys]

What you forget:

1. A plane in the air is 100% better than a plane sitting on the ground.
2. Being on alert means that ships are moving and soldiers are at their guns firing.

Not to mention that you contradict yourself when your first sentence is saying that the Americans were the only people fighting successfully zeros.

 

[fedr808]

once more you are abusing what i said and taking a different meaning purposefully. The full sentence was that Americans were the only ones succesfully fighting the zero's prior to pearl harbor, in China. The american airmen reported this amazing plane and the mainlandish commanders thought they were way overexxagerating the plane's abilites. they werent

 

[Syzygys]

Your point was in the last sentence, which contradicted your first sentence. My point was that planes in the air are useful, planes on the ground are sitting ducks.

End of story...

For the record:

only people whom had ever succesfully fought Japanese zero's prior to Pearl Harbor were American air crews in China fighting Japan.


even if the American planes got into the air the zero's really would never have had any problems shooting them down.

 

[fedr808]

Your point was in the last sentence, which contradicted your first sentence. My point was that planes in the air are useful, planes on the ground are sitting ducks.

End of story...

For the record:

because the air crews fighting in Japan were not in Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor pilot's had never experianced the zero's before.

 

[scott3x]

fedr, using coarse insults on people who disagree with you doesn't help your case. Anyway, you may want to read the following, which is an excerpt from a site called Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies:

In November FDR ordered the Red Cross Disaster Relief director to secretly prepare for massive casualties at Pearl Harbor because he was going to let it be attacked. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that "the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack [sic] within their own borders." See U.S. Naval Institute - Naval History - Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection by Daryl S. Borgquist
[unfortunately you need a subscription in order to see it]

CHURCHILL wrote FDR KNEW. Did FDR know that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese target? Answer: FDR planned Pearl Harbor to be their target. He ordered the ships in and the carriers out. Co-conspirator Churchill wrote about the Pearl Harbor attack that FDR and his top advisers "knew the full and immediate purpose of their enemy." (GRAND ALLIANCE p 603) Churchill's entire discussion of Pearl Harbor was a justification of treason, e.g.: "A Japanese attack upon the U.S. was a vast simplification of (FDR's and advisors') problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united...?" Now why would Churchill bother to defend treason unless it happened?

J. Edgar Hoover told his friends in early 1942 that FDR had known about the Pearl Harbor plan since the early fall. It was totally in character for FDR to concoct such a plan. Not only had the US Senate already censured FDR for utterly lacking moral perspective, but as Walter Lippmann wrote: "his purposes are not simple and his methods are not direct."

Once more how did you guys legitimately get said letters? The freedom of information act does not apply to them. Seriously none of those letters would have been released legally. There is no concrete evidence that those letters are real.

What letters are you referring to? The formerly confidential material nietzschefan posted?

 

[James R]

It just goes to show - conspiracy theorists will buy just about any conspiracy. They see conspiracies everywhere.

 

[scott3x]

It just goes to show - conspiracy theorists will buy just about any conspiracy. They see conspiracies everywhere.

So far, I've got:
1- Pearl Harbor
2- Gulf of Tonkin Incident
3- JFK
4- 9/11

There are a lot of other events in the last half century and perhaps there's even a conspiracy or 2 I missed. But 4 events doesn't mean I see 'conspiracies everywhere'. Personally, when someone believes something is true (whether it be about a conspiracy or, more frequently, about religion), I like to analyze the arguments for veracity. I hope that you will give more time to the arguments that I and others have put in this thread and in other conspiracy threads; perhaps you might even find that some of them have more merit then you currently believe...