Pearl Harbor, foreshadowing 9/11

[GeoffP]

Neitzche, armies plan for all kinds of crap. I'm reasonably sure there was a plan to counter alien invasion for most of the 80s and 90s. As for the rest of scott's evidence: meh. This is over a timescale of several years, and boneheaded plays are the order of the day in the early rounds of any war. Think Singapore.

 

[nietzschefan]

Well this proves that whomever made this knew how to use a typewriter. It does not prove that the author is who u guys claim it to be.

It was released in the 90s after the freedom of information act. No one disputes it's authenticity ( except you?).

 

[nietzschefan]

Neitzche, armies plan for all kinds of crap. I'm reasonably sure there was a plan to counter alien invasion for most of the 80s and 90s. As for the rest of scott's evidence: meh. This is over a timescale of several years, and boneheaded plays are the order of the day in the early rounds of any war. Think Singapore.

Yeah of course they do Geoff. The fact is, the U.S followed the plan in that memo(again made/written in 1940) nearly point by point. I'm not saying it was a "Bad" plan, it WORKED. I just think people whom deny previous knowledge of an imminent attack, particularly in late 41' or early 42', are incredibly naive.

 

[scott3x]

Originally Posted by fedr808

Well this proves that whomever made this knew how to use a typewriter. It does not prove that the author is who u guys claim it to be.

It was released in the 90s after the freedom of information act. No one disputes it's authenticity ( except you?).

God I laughed at that "except you?" bit

 

[scott3x]

Well then, i would have to say that either this conspiracy is false, or FDR was the worst strategist in history. Think about it this way, if FDR knew that there were multiple carrier fleets bearing down on pearl harbor. He knew that they would be doing a complete suprise attack. If FDR knew this he could've ambushed them right then and there. He could have taken down one of the greatest navies in history at that point in time. And no, you guys he was never willing to sacrifice two aircraft carriers. aircraft carriers are the most valuable warships in the world. Battleships are mere toys compared to what an aircraft carrier can do. Why do you guys think that the battleships are all but extinct by now? Now, considering that your arguement that FDR was a genius in his execution of this plan than we can assume he is not a moron. The aricraft carrier is too valuable. Take one of the carriers that avoided the attack, the USS Enterprise (not the space ship, but the WW2 aircraft carrier), it won more than thirty gold battle stars, a presidential award, the British Navies highest reward (to this day no foreign ship other than the Enterprise has won it) and uncountable individual awards to the crew. It is quite possibly the most famous ship in recent history, FDR was not willing to sacrifice aircraft carriers.

It seems he was saving atleast a few aircraft carriers. From the same source as before:
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In November FDR ordered the Red Cross Disaster Relief director to secretly prepare for massive casualties at Pearl Harbor because he was going to let it be attacked. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that "the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack [sic] within their own borders." See U.S. Naval Institute - Naval History - Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection by Daryl S. Borgquist

CHURCHILL wrote FDR KNEW. Did FDR know that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese target? Answer: FDR planned Pearl Harbor to be their target. He ordered the ships in and the carriers out. Co-conspirator Churchill wrote about the Pearl Harbor attack that FDR and his top advisers "knew the full and immediate purpose of their enemy." (GRAND ALLIANCE p 603) Churchill's entire discussion of Pearl Harbor was a justification of treason, e.g.: "A Japanese attack upon the U.S. was a vast simplification of (FDR's and advisors') problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united...?" Now why would Churchill bother to defend treason unless it happened?

J. Edgar Hoover told his friends in early 1942 that FDR had known about the Pearl Harbor plan since the early fall. It was totally in character for FDR to concoct such a plan. Not only had the US Senate already censured FDR for utterly lacking moral perspective, but as Walter Lippmann wrote: "his purposes are not simple and his methods are not direct."

WHY SACRIFICE OLD, SLOW SHIPS?

1. FDR had to do it to get into the war, as he himself later told Stalin. He needed massive public outrage and that required big sacrifice.

2. Would he do it? Did he "love the Navy too much?" He was sacrificing ships in the Atlantic for the same purpose. Of course he would do it - he was doing it.

3. He saved all the important elements of the fleet. In the spring he had sent many ships to the Atlantic. He kept the aircraft carrier Saratoga on the West Coast. And his sending of the two carrier groups out of harbor meant that not only they but also their fast escort ships would be saved - all the new ships stationed at Pearl Harbor were saved. Only WWI junk was left in harbor. Here is a list of all the ships saved - Ships saved at Pearl December 7

4. FDR's attitude is best summed up by co-conspirator Admiral Bloch's testimony to Congress, "The Japanese only destroyed a lot of old hardware. In a sense they did us a favor."

5. This was obviously FDR's view as well, because on 7 December at 2:15 PM, minutes after hearing of the attack and before any damage reports were in, FDR called Lord Halifax at the British Embassy and told him "Most of the fleet was at sea...none of their newer ships were in harbour." He had protected the new ships, the important elements of the fleet, and that fact was at the forefront of his mind in relation to the attack. First, it means FDR didn't care about the old ships. Secondly, it means he knew before the attack that only old ships were in harbor for the attack. Therefore, Pearl Harbor was "the first shot without too much danger to ourselves" he sought. FDR was the architect of the attack plot from the oil embargo to the ultimatum to the final touches of deciding who would live and who would die.
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[fedr808]

>.> Wow now it seems you guys are getting a bit to personal against me lets stick with the topic.

You still haven't answered the cypher question. Also China was a US ally, and China was under attack before pearl harbor by the Japanese, the American air crews were fighting japanese zero's well before pearl harbor. And also, it was always suspected that the Japanese would attack midway island first, not Pearls Harbor. Im surprised you guys haven't brought up the subject of the radar switchboard operator, i had a whole response planned and everything. o well. It's funny how there is a conspiracy about everything. If we had gone to war with Russia im sure there was a conspiracy planned for that.

The whole Japan invading China was the reason why we cut off their oil supply and steel supply, not for some conspiracy and im sure if we hadn't FDR would be impeached for not doing it before. And the Chinese would be pissed. It was the right thing to do.

And that quote for number four. That is him testifying probably that the Japanes had hurt us but not taken the US out of the war. Not of any conspiracy. That is called takign a quote out of context.

 

[fedr808]

Also the freedom of information act has a few exemptions. One of which deals with top secret information. i seriously doubt that the government would throw that letter out there for any reason. Also the memo does nto imply that there are people in the US government willing to provoke Japan. Also more likely is that it was a list of things that would provoke the Japanese, as in "if you take this action this will be the reaction." Also as i said before this letter was not covered by the freedom of information act, ultimately questioning it's sources.

 

[GeoffP]

Yeah of course they do Geoff. The fact is, the U.S followed the plan in that memo(again made/written in 1940) nearly point by point. I'm not saying it was a "Bad" plan, it WORKED. I just think people whom deny previous knowledge of an imminent attack, particularly in late 41' or early 42', are incredibly naive.

Then how do you explain Singapore?

 

[GeoffP]

3. He saved all the important elements of the fleet. In the spring he had sent many ships to the Atlantic. He kept the aircraft carrier Saratoga on the West Coast. And his sending of the two carrier groups out of harbor meant that not only they but also their fast escort ships would be saved - all the new ships stationed at Pearl Harbor were saved. Only WWI junk was left in harbor. Here is a list of all the ships saved - Ships saved at Pearl December 7

I don't buy it. Two carrier groups west of Pearl, in the same part of the sea as the Japanese fleet they knew all about. Why expose your carriers there? Why not detour them north to the Aleutians or East towards San Diego instead?

 

[nietzschefan]

Then how do you explain Singapore?

Geoffp help me out, wtf am I supposed to explain about Singapore? That Percival was a fuckin moron?

I never made any arguments that Brits had prior knowledge. Your argument is with scott regarding the code breaking...

 

[GeoffP]

Well if the great powers that be were so omnipotent, why wasn't Singapore properly defended? It was hugely important. Why was it simply dropped off the scope like that? The conspiracy theory involves Britain, so why didn't they properly protect Singapore?

 

[scott3x]

Originally Posted by scott3x
3. He saved all the important elements of the fleet. In the spring he had sent many ships to the Atlantic. He kept the aircraft carrier Saratoga on the West Coast. And his sending of the two carrier groups out of harbor meant that not only they but also their fast escort ships would be saved - all the new ships stationed at Pearl Harbor were saved. Only WWI junk was left in harbor. Here is a list of all the ships saved - Ships saved at Pearl December 7

I don't buy it. Two carrier groups west of Pearl, in the same part of the sea as the Japanese fleet they knew all about. Why expose your carriers there? Why not detour them north to the Aleutians or East towards San Diego instead?

Perhaps a wiser inside jobber would have moved them further off. But it's clear that he felt that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor way before they actually did. Not hundreds of miles east, west, north or south of it. Seems you ignored most of the rest of what I pointed out in the post you were responding to. For instance:
*************************
In November FDR ordered the Red Cross Disaster Relief director to secretly prepare for massive casualties at Pearl Harbor because he was going to let it be attacked. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that "the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack [sic] within their own borders." See U.S. Naval Institute - Naval History - Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection by Daryl S. Borgquist

CHURCHILL wrote FDR KNEW. Did FDR know that Pearl Harbor was a Japanese target? Answer: FDR planned Pearl Harbor to be their target. He ordered the ships in and the carriers out. Co-conspirator Churchill wrote about the Pearl Harbor attack that FDR and his top advisers "knew the full and immediate purpose of their enemy." (GRAND ALLIANCE p 603) Churchill's entire discussion of Pearl Harbor was a justification of treason, e.g.: "A Japanese attack upon the U.S. was a vast simplification of (FDR's and advisors') problems and their duty. How can we wonder that they regarded the actual form of the attack, or even its scale, as incomparably less important than the fact that the whole American nation would be united...?" Now why would Churchill bother to defend treason unless it happened?

J. Edgar Hoover told his friends in early 1942 that FDR had known about the Pearl Harbor plan since the early fall. It was totally in character for FDR to concoct such a plan. Not only had the US Senate already censured FDR for utterly lacking moral perspective, but as Walter Lippmann wrote: "his purposes are not simple and his methods are not direct."
*************************
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

 

[GeoffP]

I'm sorry, but I'd need to see a better source for those suppositions.

And again: why were the carrier groups towards the enemy? Why weren't they running for San Franciso?

 

[scott3x]

I'm sorry, but I'd need to see a better source for those suppositions.

If I put the energy into it I could probably find more sources. The problem is that I'm so concentrated on 9/11 .

And again: why were the carrier groups towards the enemy? Why weren't they running for San Francisco?

I already answered that one- FDR believed that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. Given this belief, as long as they were a few hundred miles away, they would be safe.

 

[John99]

The whole thing makes ZERO sense. The intention of attacking PH combined with the Nazi's invading countries in Europe was enough to get U.S completely involved into the war.

Basically they would wait for the Japanese to start attacking, be prepared for it and fight back. Knowing that this would have been the logical and obvious thing to do puts another of these conspiracies where it belongs...in the garbage can.

 

[GeoffP]

If I put the energy into it I could probably find more sources. The problem is that I'm so concentrated on 9/11 .

Given the dearth of evidence for it, I expect you need to be.

I already answered that one- FDR believed that Pearl Harbor would be attacked. Given this belief, as long as they were a few hundred miles away, they would be safe.

But your answer was absurd. Why were they towards the Japanese fleet? Surely you realize that it would have been more likely for them to have been detected by scout aircraft or radar?

 

[scott3x]

Originally Posted by scott3x

If I put the energy into it I could probably find more sources. The problem is that I'm so concentrated on 9/11 .

Given the dearth of evidence for it, I expect you need to be.

There's certainly no dearth of evidence when it comes to debunking the 9/11 official story. I believe the same could be said regarding debunking the official story regarding Pearl Harbor. However, I must admit that my attention just isn't as strongly there as it is on 9/11. And it appears as if 9/11 official story supporters have gotten rather tired of defending it recently in this forum. I have said in the past that in all truth, it's not hardest when official story supporters argue with conspiracy theorists. In many ways, such an experience can be educational for everyone involved, as people familiarize themselves with the opponent's arguments, which frequently do require some research in order to come up with adequate counters. The hardest thing is when official story supporters, by conviction or by default, simply opt out of the debate altogether.

However, I'm sure that the issue will continue to become stronger. sciforums, while quite an interesting forum, is certainly not the only forum that deals with this issue and I firmly believe that one day, 9/11 will be remembered as one of the many inside jobs that shadow governments have done to their people in order to manipulate the populace to do their will.

But your answer was absurd. Why were they towards the Japanese fleet? Surely you realize that it would have been more likely for them to have been detected by scout aircraft or radar?

Sorry, I don't realize such things. The whole issue of Pearl Harbor is a bit murky. Unlike 9/11, I have read no books concerning it. Perhaps one day the subject will interest me more, but for now, I'll content myself with dealing more with the 9/11 issue.

 

[fedr808]

Once more. The US had enough reason to go to war. The US had already engaged the Japanes in China in air and ground battles. They could legitamently go to war.

Also the cypher had to be broken before any conspiracy began.

Also the freedom of information act has a section that states that any top secret classified documents such as the letters you guys constantly talk about do not have to be released to the public. And knowing that the US government are not morons they would not have released such letters because it would just be in general a stupid idea. So the letters you have were not obtained legally which means either someone robbed them which is stuppendously unlikely or they are just make believe.

 

[EndLightEnd]

And that quote for number four. That is him testifying probably that the Japanes had hurt us but not taken the US out of the war. Not of any conspiracy. That is called takign a quote out of context.

And youve done what is called assuming. Sorry, probably does not cut it.

The whole thing makes ZERO sense. The intention of attacking PH combined with the Nazi's invading countries in Europe was enough to get U.S completely involved into the war.

Wrong. The American people as a whole did not want ANYTHING to do with WWII prior to Pearl Harbor. Even though Britain needed help desperately, our isolationist population genuinely felt this war had nothing to do with us because we were on the other side of the planet.

Basically they would wait for the Japanese to start attacking, be prepared for it and fight back. Knowing that this would have been the logical and obvious thing to do puts another of these conspiracies where it belongs...in the garbage can.

It is not the logical and obvious thing to do when your goal is to invoke the strongest emotional reaction possible from US citizens.

Also if the US had shown any sort of prior knowledge (such as preparing for the attack) and allowed it to happen anyway would definitely appear more suspicious then just letting the attacks happen and then claiming ignorance.

Once more. The US had enough reason to go to war. The US had already engaged the Japanes in China in air and ground battles. They could legitamently go to war.

I was not aware of any battles between us and Japanese/Chinese BEFORE we entered the war (other than PH). Please provide the links unless your making this up.

Also the freedom of information act has a section that states that any top secret classified documents such as the letters you guys constantly talk about do not have to be released to the public. And knowing that the US government are not morons they would not have released such letters because it would just be in general a stupid idea.

Again no one is disputing the authenticity of the documents except you. You cannot just dismiss evidence because of your inability to accept it as fact.

So the letters you have were not obtained legally which means either someone robbed them which is stuppendously unlikely or they are just make believe.

This is nothing but pure speculation. Maybe you should throw a probably in there, like you did with your other assumptions.

 

[scott3x]

What Endlightend said ;-)