Owning a person

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I don't judge the choices, but the choices say a lot about the people.

Someone who would rather sleep with strangers for money than clean toilets is going to show the same judgment in the rest of their choices.

e.g. I would not consider one of them a suitable homemaker for young children.

What if cleaning toilets didn't pay enough for your rent never mind food? What if it didn't school your kids or put food in their stomachs? Worse yet what if it meant a life-time of poverty and toilet cleaning and your toilet cleaning youth is spent right into a toilet cleaning old age when they finally boot you out for being too old and you haven't a pot to piss in?

Its all relative Sam and obviously you don't have to choose between being a prostitute or cleaning toilets. Your judgement of those who are born into lesser circumstances says more about you than it does about them. You have no right to judge.

In any case I think its better for a woman to get payed for sex with whom she chooses if she chooses than to be married off to the first man her family arranges whether she likes it or not as they do in Hindu society. AND THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THE MAN TO TAKE HER OFF THEIR HANDS TOO!!! Now THAT, I find outrageous.

 

[quadraphonics]

Is prostitution a form of barter where you own a person's body?

No. You only rent it.

Is there anything that one is not legally permitted to do to a bought sexual partner?

In places where prostitution is legal, presumably? Yes. It would be anything that they don't agree to.

In the rest of the world, none of this is legal in the first place.

IOW, if you pay for sex, are you trafficking in that persons body?

Depends on what you mean by "trafficking" I suppose.

But you've got the wrong angle here: it's the pimps that are the slavers here, not the johns.

 

[iceaura]

I don't see anything compassionate about subjecting your child to a line of joes or janes trailing through your bed. Sorry. In fact I am pretty certain that prostitution as a lifestyle can be considered as unfit for parenting.

An auto body repairman who brought their finishing operations into their child's home would be likewise doing harm. I'm not sure what you mean by "prostitution as a lifestyle"? Marrying a rich guy for his money?

Just because someone is alright with being exploited as a sex object and the "service" is regulated for their health and protection [and to reduce overt exploitation] does not change the fact that in essence they are bartering their body.

Don't remind me - I have to go to work again tonight. I am providing the service of my laboring body to some really unattractive people who want their pianos in different locations than they now occupy.

I guess the issue is when is it ethical to treat a human being as a commodity?

Their services, you mean? When you agree to pay minimum wage for them, in the US.

You seem to be having a bit of trouble with cultures diverse from your own parochial upbringing - it's good to experience diversity once in a while, and trying to understand the ways of people from different cultures can be enlightening.

 

[fellowtraveler]

Interesting points James, one of the problems I have with "consent" as a criteria for what regulates prostitution is that it ignores the intrinsic ethics of such decisions. Just because someone is alright with being exploited as a sex object and the "service" is regulated for their health and protection [and to reduce overt exploitation] does not change the fact that in essence they are bartering their body.

Its the same issue that I have with contracted surrogacy. Just because a woman can be convinced to loan her womb for reproduction if the financial incentive is good enough and even if it could be legalised so as to preclude exploitation, ethically, its still unsound practice.

I guess the issue is when is it ethical to treat a human being as a commodity?

REPLY: I know I have been hard on you, but it is you trying to impose your values on people such as me. People such as me never try and impose our values on people like you, NEVER.
But you, and people like you are forever condemning the likes of me and always trying to enact laws and find ways of punishing us. For what ? Living lives that do not conform to your standards of conduct.
I am not out hurting people or robbing them or anything like that. There have been times in my life such as when I served in the Marine Corps in the VIET NAM WAR when prostitutes are the only women available to you.
This is nothing new. Prostitutes have followed soldiers around throughout history. And I know at times rapes have occured. This is surely not what was going on in Okinawa and all the other places these situations developed.
Aside from that, in places like Nevada and some European, Asian, and other Countries that have not caved in to the moral restrictions you and like minded people have forced on their fellow citizens, just who do you imagine yourself to be that you have any right to tell others how they should live their lives ? In fact it angers me that people such as you have influenced the different governments where you have been successful in restricting my FREEDOM to have sex with adult prostitutes who wish to ply their trade . Prostitution is a NORMAL and NATURAL expression of HUMAN NEED. The need for sex on the part of the buyers and the need to provide for their financial needs on the part of the prostitutes. It is a completely NATURAL arrangement.
Do you imagine these young women would prefer to be cleaning up after you and others for the chump change that sort of work pays ? What is it that angers you so about all this ? The fact that some men are out there having some truly exciting experiences with some beautiful young women ? You only live once SAM. If you want to spend your life devoid of some of the at times truly wonderful experiences that can be had for the price paid, I do not care. I, myself , choose to get what I can out of what time I have to live and at times this includes paying a prostitute I decide is worth it. Right now I have a gorgeous woman who is pleased to be with me, so I am very fortunate in that regard. This is not always the way it has been for me. I will never change my way of living and give up anything I want to comply with the wishes of people like you, EVER.
All people such as me have ever asked of people such as you is to stay out of our lives and not attempt to impose your values on us. We never, ever, try and meddle in your lives. ...fellowtraveler

 

[Raithere]

Interesting points James, one of the problems I have with "consent" as a criteria for what regulates prostitution is that it ignores the intrinsic ethics of such decisions. Just because someone is alright with being exploited as a sex object and the "service" is regulated for their health and protection [and to reduce overt exploitation] does not change the fact that in essence they are bartering their body.

All of your points so far can be similarly attributed to any other service occupation. Unless you just have a general objection to people performing services for money, the only difference is in how you personally view the act of sex.

It's not an unusal or even incorrect view, but you err in assuming it is shared by everyone. It's not exploitive unless they are being coerced into doing something they feel is unethical. That you feel it is unethical is irrelevant.

~Raithere

 

[madanthonywayne]

Man...your country sucks.

I wouldn't say that, but SciForums has most definitely changed my opinion of Australia. (My former opinion was based primarity upon Olivia Newton John and Crocodile Dundee.)

 

[Asguard]

I wouldn't say that, but SciForums has most definitely changed my opinion of Australia. (My former opinion was based primarity upon Olivia Newton John and Crocodile Dundee.)

then thats a good thing, Crocodile Dundee (and steve erwin for that matter) makes most Australian's cringe. It would be like saying that all American's are cowboys riding around on horses shooting native americans and generally making an ass of themselves. If anything i have herd people say that Australia generally is most like callifornia but i dont know because I've never been there.

Man...your country sucks.

i would love to know what makes you say that. Is it because they were imposed in the first place? (hell if the US can live down Bush, we can live down Howard as long as Abbott never gets the PMship) in that case i would agree with you except that thankfully they are now gone

Or is it because they were removed? if thats the case i feel sorry for you, im proud to live in a country which put workers rights above the "rights" of big companies whos only goal is to drive working people's pay and conditions into the dirt until we are as divided as the US is between the haves and have nots

 

[quadraphonics]

Isn't financial consideration a form of coercion? To take a less extreme example, about 200 women in India give birth to surrogate babies every year [this is only counting the successes, there are probably far more failures] because the $3,000 - $6,000 they are paid for it far exceeds the <$500 they make in a year.

Isn't this coercive?

No more than it is coercive that I accepted a high-paid white collar job instead of working for minimum wage at McDonald's. If the surrogates would rather take the $500 and not carry someone else's baby, what is stopping them? If nothing is stopping them, where is the coercion?

If someone in power uses that power to obtain gratification from you for services rendered by using your body, aren't both the user and the usee placing a value on something that should not be on the market?

Where is the assumption that the service in question should not be on the market coming from? It seems to be a separate question from the considerations of power, per se.

 

[Orleander]

I'm confused. Is this thread about rape, prostitution, or owning a person?

I think a lot of parents feel they own their children.

 

[Asguard]

I'm confused. Is this thread about rape, prostitution, or owning a person?

I think a lot of parents feel they own their children.

and they would be wrong, you own property, you cant own a person. Hell you cant even own an animal the way you do property, you owe it a responcability to treat it properly as inforced by law. A can or TV on the other hand has no such restrictions

Anyway i agree with you, SAM is jumping all over the place. This thread wasnt ever an honest discussion on prositution, rather it was just a way for SAM to push a paticular adjender (and not a very subtle way either)

 

[CheskiChips]

i would love to know what makes you say that. Is it because they were imposed in the first place? (hell if the US can live down Bush, we can live down Howard as long as Abbott never gets the PMship) in that case i would agree with you except that thankfully they are now gone

Or is it because they were removed? if thats the case i feel sorry for you, im proud to live in a country which put workers rights above the "rights" of big companies whos only goal is to drive working people's pay and conditions into the dirt until we are as divided as the US is between the haves and have nots

I live in Phoenix Arizona, Arizona had a top 30 hospital world wide and a few top 100 specialty hospitals. I pay 15% income tax federal,state and city... food products are untaxed and general sales tax is only about 5.5-6.25%. It's a right to work state and there are no unions anywhere in the state. It's the 5th biggest city in the country and has a cost of living similar to cities half its size. When there was no recession unemployment hovered around 3 to 5%. Now in the heart of the recession it's only 8.6%. If your company fires you, they pay unemployment for up to a year. That's their incentive to not fire, and that's their incentive to hire the right guy the first time. We have an elected sheriff who's known as the toughest sheriff nation wide, Joe Arpaio. Paradise Valley (an urban suburb/borough) has the highest median wages in the entire world. It was home to one of the first MULTICS systems - and has the best internet infrastructure in Americas largest cities.

Why do we have all these things? Because the government stays out of the corporate worlds business.

 

[Asguard]

have fun with that
personally i will wait to see what sorts of wages and conditions remain once that unemployment rate rises a bit. It will you know, nothing ever stays the same

 

[S.A.M.]

You say you are looking at these questions from the 'demand' side... Its pretty pathetic at times when you realize that its not the woman who is being used but the man. Its probably one of the reasons why when they tried to shut down all the brothels here in Phnom Penh it was the prostitutes who went out on the streets to complain.

And when the Indian government tried to crack down on child labour, the children were sold into sexual slavery. Does this make either child labour or sexual slavery ethical?

Just because its their own body they are willing to barter for money, does it make the practice moral?

 

[fellowtraveler]

I'm confused. Is this thread about rape, prostitution, or owning a person?

I think a lot of parents feel they own their children.

REPLY: Well, your confusion is understandable. SAM equates prostitution with somehow owning a person. Anyone who has involved themselves in prostitution, as a prostitute or a client in the usual course of this business knows that is preposterous. He comes up with imagined scenarios that in no way represents the usual course of events regarding prostitution. Yes I have been a customer. More than that I was an MP on Okinawa for about one year.The big transit center for all soldiers and marines going to or returning from Viet Nam . This was from late summer 1969 to late summer 1970. My last real duty during my four years as a Marine. Prior to that I was training for or fighting the war with some time off for recovering from injuries. Yes I do know a thing or two about prostitution.
That last year of duty was quite a year for me, a very good year and I am in no way ashamed about it. I never once arrested anyone. I kicked the crap out of some troublemakers, and put them in a cab and got them back to their bases. They were either going to or coming back from Viet Nam. I wished them no more misery than they had going in their lives.
And for sure I was doing my part in supporting the local economy so to speak. If that makes me a prick, then a prick I am, M`am. ....traveler

 

[S.A.M.]

Have you ever been a prostitute fellowtraveler? Given your body to be used by strangers for money? Bent over and grabbed your ankles so other people could use you as a cum receptacle?

And once you know me better, you'll realise that telling me that your war crimes mandated you to use strangers as your cum receptacle to provide entertainment for you in your job of slaughtering civilians in their own country, is not really a winning argument with me. :bugeye:

The fact that you value the lives of others even less than you value their bodies, is not really a surprise. Its quite common in soldiers.

 

[iceaura]

The thread can be kept simple.

Is prostitution a form of barter where you own a person's body?

No.

And when the Indian government tried to crack down on child labour, the children were sold into sexual slavery. Does this make either child labour or sexual slavery ethical?

No.

Just because its their own body they are willing to barter for money, does it make the practice moral?

No.

See? Easy.

 

[S.A.M.]

The thread can be kept simple.
No.
No.

No.

See? Easy.

Cognitive dssonance is never simple

See this

People such as me never try and impose our values on people like you, NEVER. ...I am not out hurting people or robbing them or anything like that. There have been times in my life such as when I served in the Marine Corps in the VIET NAM WAR when prostitutes are the only women available to you.

Worse yet what if it meant a life-time of poverty and toilet cleaning and your toilet cleaning youth is spent right into a toilet cleaning old age when they finally boot you out for being too old and you haven't a pot to piss in?...In any case I think its better for a woman to get payed for sex with whom she chooses if she chooses than to be married off to the first man her family arranges whether she likes it or not as they do in Hindu society. AND THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR THE MAN TO TAKE HER OFF THEIR HANDS TOO!!!

See?

 

[Bells]

Have you ever been a prostitute fellowtraveler? Given your body to be used by strangers for money? Bent over and grabbed your ankles so other people could use you as a cum receptacle?

Do you think young women who marry and have sex with rich men for the 'benefits' are prostitutes?

Is it the exchange of money that disturbs you so much?

You seem to be imposing your moral judgement as to how people should be making money. To you, you would rather clean toilets than be a prostitute. Good for you. But that is your choice and you are saying that knowing that you will never be placed in that kind of position where you would actually have to choose. It is easy to show moral outrage when you know that you will never be placed in the position that would force you to make that choice.

I have met and known many prostitutes and the greater majority of them were hard working men and women who were striving to do the best they could to ensure their family's financial security and survival. Does not make them immoral. It makes them unselfish people who would do anything and everything to ensure that their children got the best start in life that they could give them.

No, they are not slaves and no they are not owned. Those that are forced into it by others deserve our pity and not condemnation from a wealthy woman passing judgements on how others should spend their lives and/or make money.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you think young women who marry and have sex with rich men for the 'benefits' are prostitutes?

Not unless their relationship is entirely restricted to an exchange of sexual favours for financial ones. In which case, the common term is "bimbo". Still, it shows long term planning since, once they get too old to obtain sufficient financial benefits from their bodily receptacles, they still get it from other means [alimony or inheritance]. If they were also sleeping with other men at the same time for money as their rich husband, you can be sure he would consider it a poor bargain, unless he participates.

How would you feel about either of your sons becoming prostitutes, given your stance?

No, they are not slaves and no they are not owned. Those that are forced into it by others deserve our pity and not condemnation from a wealthy woman passing judgements on how others should spend their lives and/or make money.

What if they sell their children for sex?

 

[iceaura]

What if they sell their children for sex?

What if they sell them for toilet cleaning?

Do you think young women who marry and have sex with rich men for the 'benefits' are prostitutes?
”
Not unless their relationship is entirely restricted to an exchange of sexual favours for financial ones

So if they throw in cleaning toilets they aren't prostitutes any more, and they can get some respect?