this is the most asinine post I have read all morning, Congrats!
Like anything when someone becomes fanatical it may lead to danger...
no one can make anyone believe anything without that person's consent. We are each responsible for our own belief systems, people dont own our minds. we have choices when it comes to our beliefs. I am a theist and I dont believe in hell.
I agree when someone is sick they need to go to the damn doctor.
there will always be *something* else to cause dissension...
Amie--"Won't someone please think of the children?"
It is as a result of this process, however, that I've come to "forgive" Christianity (see forgiveness thread for clarification on Tiassa and forgiveness) for its lies and deceptions. I see now that this is the way it must be among that church, for, like me, my aunt was indoctrinated to Christianity. It didn't take root in my mother, strangely. And before their generation you were allowed to teach the Bible to children in public schools and tell them it was historical and scientific fact.
So if you would like to say that "no one can make anyone believe anything without that person's consent", I would ask that you give some consideration to the indoctrination of children.
My daughter's grandparents--maternal--have sent us a satellite dish; it is designed to receive only 3ABN, a Seventh-Day Adventist international television network. One of Tigger's aunts has sent a "church dress" for Emma Grace: pink and pleated and it has that white thing on the shoulders, and its cut to show her ass just like "cute" little dresses do ....
Apparently, we're supposed to start the indoctrination now.
At any rate, the situation starts a trend that I would apply to your post:
- We are each responsible for our own belief systems, people dont own our minds. we have choices when it comes to our beliefs. You know, I am acquainted with adults who still to this day fear God according to their indoctrination. As adults I hold them directly responsible for their choices, but I'm still not so sure they ever chose to be Christians inasmuch as they failed to choose not to.
- I am a theist and I dont believe in hell. That's ... helpful. I mean, I'm a theist only because I finally came across a way of looking God I could accept.
- there will always be *something* else to cause dissension Here's the thing: "Democrat or Republican" is an interesting choice because the results of that choice have vast implications for the outcome of American society. "Christian, atheist, or otherwise" is an interesting choice with massive implications because it affects the processes leading to the outcome. Where one might be persuaded logically on an economic position, such persuasion is doctrinally not possible in the religious arena.
But I agree, Q25's post is asinine. It seems pretty much religious in its zealotry, and makes the serious mistake of basing opinions of religion on Christianity. Well and fine, but comparatively, I could look at that post and decide that humanity is asinine. Not a very good standard, eh?
But I've always noticed that it is in defense of Christianity that people assert choices; I would then ask every Christian household to please spare their children from the family religion until they are legal adults and can make that choice for themselves. In the meantime, indoctrination, extortion, and subversion do not result in a freely-given choice.
:m:,
Tiassa
Amie, I must respectfully disagree. My brother and I were raised Lutheran, and from the beginning my maternal grandmother and my aunt began supplying the "God is everything, man is nothing" that Emma Goldman laments in religions. Gaither records, books about God ... I grew up afraid of God because that's how it was taught me. True, they couldn't force me to continue believing that crap after I started studying the faith itself, and once I had better knowledge of the Bible, the children's propaganda books campaigning for God and Christ revealed themselves as lies.
It is as a result of this process, however, that I've come to "forgive" Christianity (see forgiveness thread for clarification on Tiassa and forgiveness) for its lies and deceptions. I see now that this is the way it must be among that church, for, like me, my aunt was indoctrinated to Christianity. It didn't take root in my mother, strangely. And before their generation you were allowed to teach the Bible to children in public schools and tell them it was historical and scientific fact.
So if you would like to say that "no one can make anyone believe anything without that person's consent", I would ask that you give some consideration to the indoctrination of children.
My daughter's grandparents--maternal--have sent us a satellite dish; it is designed to receive only 3ABN, a Seventh-Day Adventist international television network. One of Tigger's aunts has sent a "church dress" for Emma Grace: pink and pleated and it has that white thing on the shoulders, and its cut to show her ass just like "cute" little dresses do ....
Apparently, we're supposed to start the indoctrination now.
At any rate, the situation starts a trend that I would apply to your post:
- We are each responsible for our own belief systems, people dont own our minds. we have choices when it comes to our beliefs. You know, I am acquainted with adults who still to this day fear God according to their indoctrination. As adults I hold them directly responsible for their choices, but I'm still not so sure they ever chose to be Christians inasmuch as they failed to choose not to.
- I am a theist and I dont believe in hell. That's ... helpful. I mean, I'm a theist only because I finally came across a way of looking God I could accept.
- there will always be *something* else to cause dissension Here's the thing: "Democrat or Republican" is an interesting choice because the results of that choice have vast implications for the outcome of American society. "Christian, atheist, or otherwise" is an interesting choice with massive implications because it affects the processes leading to the outcome. Where one might be persuaded logically on an economic position, such persuasion is doctrinally not possible in the religious arena.
But I agree, Q25's post is asinine. It seems pretty much religious in its zealotry, and makes the serious mistake of basing opinions of religion on Christianity. Well and fine, but comparatively, I could look at that post and decide that humanity is asinine. Not a very good standard, eh?
But I've always noticed that it is in defense of Christianity that people assert choices; I would then ask every Christian household to please spare their children from the family religion until they are legal adults and can make that choice for themselves. In the meantime, indoctrination, extortion, and subversion do not result in a freely-given choice.
:m:,
Tiassa
Re: Amie--"Won't someone please think of the children?"
people just tend to teach their children what they themselves believe in.
but they do have the choice now. Thats unfortunate that they fear God. The choice is alwasy there for them though
Absolutely not. Thats merely your interpretation of my belief.
I think people are inherently good.
Psychological conditioning?
That was my own statement of my own perspective.
Maybe you won't blackmail and extort your children, but that hardly guarantees that others won't. And given the number of people I know who have, it's a rather bleak situation. When you're taught as fact that you cannot choose to not believe at the stake of eternal punishment ... for a friend of mine, that's the first half of her life and more. Do you know what it's like to get calls from strangers who know who you are who are members of the local church and wanted to make sure you're doing okay? I mean, one of the things my partner's parents did when they were up to see the baby was go around and give our address to a bunch of Seventh-Day Adventists. Tigger used to get random calls from people who met her parents at a church campground to invite her to come to Sabbath service. One of their gifts to us for the child was a satellite dish that gets only a religious network run by their church.
So in the end, nobody blackmails my daughter. Not even me. And I'm proud to try because I've never known anyone to try before.
And then, yes, she will be able to choose, Amie. She will be able to choose because she will not have been extorted and menaced into doctrinal compliance.
Do you realize some Christians who finally choose need therapy in order to separate out what is real and what is not? That's some serious damage, and if you think that person had a choice before the day they made the choice ....
Some people I've known have been so indoctrinated that they considered their departure from the church a form of suicide. It's miserable to abandon your family, it seems. But the void of separation is that much better than the agony of beliefs rooted in extortion and sometimes even violence.
- :Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. (Proverbs 22.6, RSV)
:m:,
Tiassa
Which is part of the point.
Do they? I was indoctrinated by family for years, then sent to Lutheran confirmation--forced to attend and participate. Now, certainly I have a choice to disobey my parents at age 12, but what kind of anarchy are we seeking to license here? It is under duress that one "chooses" the religion of their parents.
Wow. Lighten up and trust your fellow human being, Amie:
That was my own statement of my own perspective.
I like to tell myself that from time to time.
Maybe you won't blackmail and extort your children, but that hardly guarantees that others won't. And given the number of people I know who have, it's a rather bleak situation. When you're taught as fact that you cannot choose to not believe at the stake of eternal punishment ... for a friend of mine, that's the first half of her life and more. Do you know what it's like to get calls from strangers who know who you are who are members of the local church and wanted to make sure you're doing okay? I mean, one of the things my partner's parents did when they were up to see the baby was go around and give our address to a bunch of Seventh-Day Adventists. Tigger used to get random calls from people who met her parents at a church campground to invite her to come to Sabbath service. One of their gifts to us for the child was a satellite dish that gets only a religious network run by their church.
So in the end, nobody blackmails my daughter. Not even me. And I'm proud to try because I've never known anyone to try before.
And then, yes, she will be able to choose, Amie. She will be able to choose because she will not have been extorted and menaced into doctrinal compliance.
Do you realize some Christians who finally choose need therapy in order to separate out what is real and what is not? That's some serious damage, and if you think that person had a choice before the day they made the choice ....
Some people I've known have been so indoctrinated that they considered their departure from the church a form of suicide. It's miserable to abandon your family, it seems. But the void of separation is that much better than the agony of beliefs rooted in extortion and sometimes even violence.
- :Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. (Proverbs 22.6, RSV)
:m:,
Tiassa
Re: Re: Amie--"Won't someone please think of the children?"
Hi 'lieverd'
For starters I agree Q25 goes overboard in his views.
But besides that, and with all due respect...
I think the teeny weeny, though essential detail that usually get's left out in a religious upbringing, is that it is a belief that's being passed on. The child(ren) will be told that there is a god, rather than mommy and daddy belief there is a god. Obviously this is what the parents belief, so as far as they're concerned God indeed exists. Thus it's what they'll tell their offspring. Even though they know it does ultimately boil down to believing and having faith.
By the way; I'm leaving the whole discussion whether there's a valid reason to conclude God is real, or there isn't out of it here.
The thing is, that children, at an age where they're also prone to believe Santa Claus or the Toothfairy are real, can't make that subtle distinction between what's undoubtedly so, and what's accepted in good faith; the verry distinction the parents to my knowledge usually discard. And perhaps belief and faith would be a concepts too complicated to explain to young children.
That way i.m.o. it doesn't so much become a matter of wanting or choosing to believe is God, but rather not wanting to abandon that belief. (Not getting into whether they aught to or not; that's something every individual should be able to decide for themselves.) Because it's all they've ever known.
"Because that's what mom and dad told me" becomes the stuff that God is first of all made of, rather than the individuals personal self-aquired faith.
Couldn't the parents, in that respect, have a bit more 'faith' in God being faith-worthy?
--------
On the subject of the thread. I think religion is a very potent thing, that brings out either the best or the worst in us. It's a 'tool' that needs to be handled with care. I absolutely 'believe', that with you Amie, that tool is in the best of hands, judging from the wonderfull kindhearted daughter you're raising.
Hi 'lieverd'
For starters I agree Q25 goes overboard in his views.
But besides that, and with all due respect...
I think the teeny weeny, though essential detail that usually get's left out in a religious upbringing, is that it is a belief that's being passed on. The child(ren) will be told that there is a god, rather than mommy and daddy belief there is a god. Obviously this is what the parents belief, so as far as they're concerned God indeed exists. Thus it's what they'll tell their offspring. Even though they know it does ultimately boil down to believing and having faith.
By the way; I'm leaving the whole discussion whether there's a valid reason to conclude God is real, or there isn't out of it here.
The thing is, that children, at an age where they're also prone to believe Santa Claus or the Toothfairy are real, can't make that subtle distinction between what's undoubtedly so, and what's accepted in good faith; the verry distinction the parents to my knowledge usually discard. And perhaps belief and faith would be a concepts too complicated to explain to young children.
That way i.m.o. it doesn't so much become a matter of wanting or choosing to believe is God, but rather not wanting to abandon that belief. (Not getting into whether they aught to or not; that's something every individual should be able to decide for themselves.) Because it's all they've ever known.
"Because that's what mom and dad told me" becomes the stuff that God is first of all made of, rather than the individuals personal self-aquired faith.
Couldn't the parents, in that respect, have a bit more 'faith' in God being faith-worthy?
--------
On the subject of the thread. I think religion is a very potent thing, that brings out either the best or the worst in us. It's a 'tool' that needs to be handled with care. I absolutely 'believe', that with you Amie, that tool is in the best of hands, judging from the wonderfull kindhearted daughter you're raising.
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Nehusta, I thought of you today
I thought how appropriate this commentary was regarding our little arguement over whether Hitler was a Christian or an atheist.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html
I thought how appropriate this commentary was regarding our little arguement over whether Hitler was a Christian or an atheist.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html