Overall, and all things considered..is religion good or bad?

[New Life]

Re: Re: re: Old Testament

Originally posted by Nehushta
And the NT suggests that people cut off certain body parts for the kingdom of heaven's sake :bugeye: (see Matthew 19:12)!

But if you want to discuss religious brutality, we don't have to go back nearly so far in history to find some pretty horrendous examples of Christian atrocities, so just remember that when you want to bring up ancient Pagan history. [/B]

with the NT suggesting that people cut off certain body parts it means that if you're doing something (ie rubbing a girls thigh) that is causing them to sin (in this case lust) then you need to stop doing it immediately (not literally cut off your hand)

All the pagan's I know are cruel and love to cast spells (or whatever they do) that are supposed to be harmful to the person they are casting against!

 

[Nehushta]

Re: I'm not following your arguement

Originally posted by Bridge
Yeah, so what? How does this description of Yahweh bolster your contention that the OT is proof of religion having done more harm than good?

According to the OT, his followers have zealously destroyed entire civilizations in order to carry out his genocidal, land-grabbing schemes. Read about the slaughter of the Midianites and the Amalekites; read about the destruction of Jericho and Ai, and all of those other Canaanite cities - does any of that give you the "warm fuzzies"? How about God's destruction of the firstborn of Egypt? Apparently he was so eager to heap this tragedy upon the Egyptian people that he hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would be forced to take this action against the entire Egyptian nation! The OT is chock-full of such nastiness!

I'm having a great deal of trouble finding any connection between your somewhat predisposed opinion of the Christian Gospels (which are NT) and your contention that the OT is proof of religion having done more bad than good.

The atrocities committed by the followers of Yahweh and recorded in the OT are examples of how biblical religions have done more harm than good - but they are not the only examples. At the risk of wearing out an old record, you can add to that the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Witch hunts, slavery, invasions of foreign lands followed by the forced conversions of the native peoples - all deeds done by Christians who were supposedly following the NT guidelines! How were they any better than their OT forebears, whose examples they were obviously following? Do you see the connection yet?

Sacrificing humans? I'll have to take that one under advisement but I would say immediately without any reference to scholarly interpretations that if this is your viewpoint, it is in direct conflict of the great command, thou shalt not murder.

Yeah, that would be the first time that happened, wouldn't it? But anyway, here is Matthew Henry's commentary on the Leviticus passage:

II. Things or persons devoted are here distinguished from things or persons that were only sanctified. 1. Devoted things were most holy to the Lord, and could neither revert nor be alienated, v. 28. They were of the same nature with those sacrifices which were called most holy, which none might touch but only the priests themselves. The difference between these and other sanctified things arose from the different expression of the vow. If a man dedicated any thing to God, binding himself with a solemn curse never to alienate it to any other purpose, then it was a thing devoted. 2. Devoted persons were to be put to death, v. 29. Not that it was in the power of any parent or master thus to devote a child or a servant to death; but it must be meant of the public enemies of Israel, who, either by the appointment of God or by the sentence of the congregation, were devoted, as the seven nations with which they must make no league. The city of Jericho in particular was thus devoted, Jos. 6:17. The inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead were put to death for violating the curse pronounced upon those who came not up to Mizpeh, Jdg. 21:9, 10. Some think it was for want of being rightly informed of the true intent and meaning of this law that Jephtha sacrificed his daughter as one devoted, who might not be redeemed.

I emphasized the commentator's obvious assumption, which to the best of my knowledge is unsubstantiated. Consider the fact that Abraham was ready to sacrifice his only son to his god, and that Jephtha did sacrifice his only daughter to that same god. These biblical events certainly do not lend support to the idea that this practice was strictly limited to the enemies of Israel, do they? But in any case, I have a bit of a problem with any god that demands human sacrifice for any reason, don't you?

The OT god is worshipped by the followers of the Abramic religions, who have committed some of the worst atrocities known to man. I'm not saying that all religion has done more bad than good - it's mainly just the "Big 3", and the records that support that contention begin with the OT. That's not to say they end there, though.

 

[Bridge]

So the Israelites killed a bunch of people

because of the OT? I'm not denying they killed people I'm just wondering how the OT part fits in there. Some of the Israelites didn't even have the benefit of reading the OT did they? It was written about them-- not for them. Regardless of that little triviality, doesn't all of world history have a violent past? Why is it you think Christianity or the Abramic religions are so bad and how do you connect the blame to the OT and Yahweh for bad religion? If the things portrayed in the Bible are true ( and somehow I doubt you actually believe they are true ) then why is the overall message, the one about loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself the part you ignore? It wasn't just Jesus who had that message. That message was echoed in Leviticus also (Lev 19:18 I think). So to make the case that the OT is evidence of a bad religion....no....you haven't made the case. The OT events with atrocities are not THE guiding principles of how Christians are to live and behave.

So what's the answer: Yahweh made me do it?

The OT god is worshipped by the followers of the Abramic religions, who have committed some of the worst atrocities known to man.

Did you mean to say: Some of the worst atrocities known to man were committed against followers of the Abramic religions?

I think something like 6 million Jews died in German concentration camps during WWII. How does that stack up to the OT? Don't tell me you really believe Hitler was a Christian? If that's the case I'm Jon Bon-Jovi. I didn't know Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol-pot were big followers of Yahweh. The Rwandan genocide, don't tell me, those guys were Jewish too, right?

Examples of bad religion may include the Jim Jones', David Koresh's and even the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's (even though the only people they killed were old people who couldn't eat right after sending them all their SSI money). It doesn't mean Chrisitianity (or Judaism or Islam) is a bad religion. Bad people make bad religion not ancient history.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Originally posted by man_of_jade
many people voted that religon has done more bad than good. Anyone who voted that care to offer up some proof?

sure...i can't think of anyting good...I can think of bad things (war, suppression of society, terrorizing people, inquisition, exclusion of other minded people from society etc.). Is that proof enough?

 

[Bridge]

re: i can't think of anyting good

Take a look around at the hospitals in the USA sometime. You may notice a pattern in the names.

Religion in many instances has brought sanctity to human life, with Christianity, first through the Pentateuch and also by opposing the Greco-Roman practices of abortion, infanticide, child abandonment, and suicide. It raised the level of sexual morality and gave dignity to family life.

Christians founded hospitals as early as the 4th century and one only need look around to see how many hospitals are the result of Christian organizations, (ie; Methodist Hospital, Houston, TX). The same applies to a number of significant universities and higher education facilities.

Christianity also brought dignity and honor to labor, aided in spawning and developing modern science, was first in condemning slavery and inspiring its abolition, and has a long list of major contributions to art, architecture, music, and literature.

Religion in general has also provided answers (perhaps not adequate by today's standards but noentheless) for some of the burning questions that our ancestors must have had about the world around them as they developed analytical abilities.

Religion gave rise to some of the earliest writings of the human race - a way in which knowledge could be passed on to subsequent generations in a consistent, repeatable manner.

Religion may have taught people to value and help their fellow man and to work together for a common cause - clearly a very useful skill across a whole range of endeavours.

The prayer and faith combination brings a host of interesting things to mankind. Prayer has been shown to help significant numbers of people with a host of problems including drug addictions, depression, smoking and alcohol abuse. It also contributes to lower blood pressure, less stress, healthier pregnancies, healthier newborns and stronger marriages.


So if you think religion hasn't done anything good I guess you're just not thinking very much period.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Re: re: i can't think of anyting good

is abortion bad or good? I would say that it is often good. The same for suicide and euthanasia. But christians think it is bad therefore it must be bad.

Wouldn't there be hospitals or universities without christians? Could they be better without the christian alliance?

slavery was approved by christians and promoted.

religion is the opium of the people if you that mean by answers given by religion.

every society has values, with or without religion.

blabla...

anything important left on the list?

the Question that we really have to ask if we really still need religion in our modern society, and if religion might be detrimental to our society. And If I ask myself this question I have to come to the conclusion that religion does more harm than good. How can we have an elightened society if we still cling on to an ancient meme, which might have served its purpose in the past, but just hinders the modern development of our society.

 

[MacZ]

Essentially, religions allow people to think, en masse, that they are somehow better than others, and that's got to be bad.

 

[Bridge]

Move to China

is abortion bad or good? I would say that it is often good. The same for suicide and euthanasia.

Move to China, you'd fit right in. You could get a good job working for the Chinese government. You could snitch out anyone who has more than one baby. That kind of abortion is much more satisfying than the impersonal kind where they just suck out bits and pieces of the fetus into a bowl. You could kill the little ones alongside those grandpas and grandmas who no longer add any value to society.

the Question that we really have to ask if we really still need religion in our modern society, and if religion might be detrimental to our society.

There are many good books as well as college courses on comparative religion. Huston Smith's book "Does Religion Matter?" might be a good starter.

btw, my name is Bridge, I'll be your waiter tonight and I'm pleased to announce monkey is still on the menu

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Move to China

Originally posted by Bridge
Move to China, you'd fit right in.

Burn any witches lately?

 

[Bridge]

Burn any witches lately?

Who, the Chinese?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them.

 

[Nehushta]

Re: So the Israelites killed a bunch of people

Originally posted by Bridge
because of the OT? I'm not denying they killed people I'm just wondering how the OT part fits in there. Some of the Israelites didn't even have the benefit of reading the OT did they? It was written about them-- not for them.

You must be doing this intentionally, because I really didn't think I was being all that unclear when I said that the OT is a record of many of the atrocities committed in the name of Yahweh. Someone else had asked for proof that religion has caused more harm than good, and I offered the OT as a starting point. See? Why are you trying to make this more complicated than it is?

Regardless of that little triviality, doesn't all of world history have a violent past?

Yes, and I had in fact stated as much myself. I also mentioned the fact that one does not have to go back very far in history at all to examine Christianity's violent past. Given the fairly recent actions of the Westboro Baptist Church following the death of Matthew Shepard, I'd be hesitant to say that Christianity has ever stopped being a religion of violence and hatred.

Why is it you think Christianity or the Abramic religions are so bad and how do you connect the blame to the OT and Yahweh for bad religion?

Now I am certain I had made this completely clear before. I am absolutely positive that I had listed a number of atrocities committed in the name of the OT god. Can we agree those were bad things? Was Yahweh not the god who allegedly commanded such acts? Can we agree that many of those stories/events are recorded in the OT? Isn't it true that religious Fundamentalists who worhip that god follow the writings of the OT? Isn't it true that the OT was the foundation for the Christian bible? Where have I failed to be clear?

If the things portrayed in the Bible are true ( and somehow I doubt you actually believe they are true ) then why is the overall message, the one about loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself the part you ignore?

In the first place, I have a huge problem with loving a genocidal, megalomaniac of a god with any portion of my being, and I refuse to be ordered by that god to do so. I'm okay with the loving my neighbor part, but that's hardly the main theme of the bible, and particularly not the OT. There are many more pages devoted to what to sacrifice should be made to atone for what "sin" (including natural bodily functions that were supposedly part of his own design), or what punishment is befitting a person who fails to keep all the six hundred and some odd laws of the OT.

I think something like 6 million Jews died in German concentration camps during WWII. How does that stack up to the OT? Don't tell me you really believe Hitler was a Christian? If that's the case I'm Jon Bon-Jovi.

Well Jon, it's like this - Hitler claimed to be Catholic. Here is a quote from Hitler regarding his Christian beliefs and how they influenced his actions against the Jews:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed. Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922, published in My New Order, quoted in Freethought Today April 1990

See? He was doing it all for Jesus.

 

[Bridge]

and you believe your viewpoint on Hitler is well-rounded?

So many alleged free-thinkers and atheists love that quote from Hitler because it serves their purpose in condemning a religion and because they're so damn stupid they actually believe it. If you were planning on world domination and genocide wouldn't you lie to get what you want? Duh?


Hitler was indeed a baptized Catholic. I think that's pretty much where he departed in his relationship with Christianity. If you think you're open-minded enough and can handle the truth, you can learn alot more about the "Nordic Messiah"-- you may want to explore THE NUREMBURG PROJECT at the Rutgers University School of Law website listed below. The Rutgers site's presentation is entitled "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches" .

In case you decide you have other pressing pieces of propaganda to read condemning Christianity, here are a few out takes from "National Review Online" columnist, Dave Shiflett, who wrote in that online journal January 21, 2001:

".. the new study “will unsettle those who have been taught that Hitler was a Christian of some stripe — and indeed, by some accountings, an enthusiastic Catholic."

A Hitler quote:

"Pure Christianity — the Christianity of the catacombs — is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into fact. It leads simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely wholehearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics."

Another Hitler quote:

"It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood." His countrymen would have to choose: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

http://camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/nurinst1.htm

http://www.lawandreligion.com

As an alleged Pagan yourself, I thought you would be aware of the fact that Hitler was quite the opposite of a Christian, dabbling regularly in the occult.

Hitler's elite bodyguard, the SS, participated in occult rituals. In fact, in later years the SS were forbidden to participate in Christmas. Instead they celebrated the winter solstice in some bizarre ritualistic manner modeled after the Teutonic Knights.

I'm not going to debate the content of the OT with you. If you believe that the OT as a written text of words is proof of a religion having done more harm than good, then who am I to change your mind? If you wish to believe a record of 66 books written by a plethora of different people, at all different times, in many different places, from all walks of life, are responsible for more evil than good-- and that's your prerogative in life, just be happy with it. You have a narrow view of history and the events that shaped the modern world. My goal wasn't to change your mind. It was to point out an opinion expressed as a fact.

Love and pentagrams always,

Jon

 

[Nehushta]

Re: and you believe your viewpoint on Hitler is well-rounded?

Originally posted by Bridge
If you were planning on world domination and genocide wouldn't you lie to get what you want? Duh?

That's what I've been saying about Christianity for years, but no one sees my point either.

Hitler was indeed a baptized Catholic.

Well, that seems to settle it then. He was baptized Catholic and he claimed to be Catholic - what more do you want? A golden halo hanging over his head? A choir of angels shouting it from the heavens? You seem to have a great deal of trouble accepting the labels others give themselves. Why is that?

If you think you're open-minded enough and can handle the truth, you can learn alot more about the "Nordic Messiah"-- you may want to explore THE NUREMBURG PROJECT at the Rutgers University School of Law website listed below. The Rutgers site's presentation is entitled "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches".

You mean if I had a more powerful computer and could read sideways - the damned thing was locking up my computer! But what I did see trying to load up was coming out sideways. I would be interested in reading it if there is a friendlier version around.

At any rate, Hitler wanted a religious people for other reasons than because he himself was so religious - I'll grant you that much. I suspect similar motives from our own "religious" politicians. Here is another Hitler quote:

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people. Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933

As an alleged Pagan yourself, I thought you would be aware of the fact that Hitler was quite the opposite of a Christian, dabbling regularly in the occult.

You say that as if you are completely unaware that some Christians do "dabble in the occult". Have you ever heard of the Order of the Astral Star, for example? As a matter of fact, the first Christians were mystics - not literalists. If you're interested in doing further researching in this area, you might want to begin by reading, "The Jesus Mysteries," by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy.

 

[Jaxom]

The text of the Bible is not evil. They're just words.

It's the usage of the power of those words by various organizations, in the past and present, to promote and justify certain agendas...I hesitate to say "evil", even though hindsight would probably define them as unjust.

It's power and corruption that is the problem...I wouldn't doubt that there have been other, non-biblical texts that have done the same thing.

 

[Tiassa]

Christian mysticism

For good Christian mysticism, I always recommend The Magus, by Frances Barrett. The animal-blood incenses are ... interesting.

Also of note is S.L. MacGregor Mathers' translation of Clavicula Solomonis: The Key of Solomon. That's right--Solomon.

Yeah. The Solomon.

Ain't no foolin' ....

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[wesmorris]

Re: re: i can't think of anyting good

Originally posted by Bridge

The prayer and faith combination brings a host of interesting things to mankind. Prayer has been shown to help significant numbers of people with a host of problems including drug addictions, depression, smoking and alcohol abuse. It also contributes to lower blood pressure, less stress, healthier pregnancies, healthier newborns and stronger marriages.

Actually I'm convinced this is correct, but not for the reasons normally attributed to it by theists. I would contend that (and this is likely pointless as I'm no phsycian) prayer is effective is twofold:

1) Prayer is generally "pure". When unfettered by encumbering distractions, the human mind can devote itself more directly to the task of its will... thusly prayer in this case could have a measurable effect.

2) Prayer is a concentrated effort. When not dsistracted by cumbersome random thoughts, the human mind can devote itself more directly to the task of its will... thusly prayer in this case could have a measurable effect.

Okay I'm a bit of a smart ass.

Regardless I believe what I've said to be quite reasonable though probably somewhat off topic, pardon.

 

[Bridge]

It's probably pointless to say this

The genocide remark is really way over the top. Then the attempted connection between the occult and Christianity is as impuissant as your attempt to conjoin all Christians with the Westboro Baptist Church. Such grasping at straws!

Obviously the quote to the Vatican, taken in context, also shows how clever Hitler was to consolidate power through means of religion, however, you missed that idea too.

Despite that, if you want to believe Hitler was a Christian, hey, you're not alone-- but you are wrong in the technical sense.

Sorry your 'puter locked up. The material is fascinating but it is time consuming to load.

If you can get a back copy of the NY Times, the January 13, 2002, Sunday copy has an article on the issue by Joe Sharkey " Word for Word"--The Case Against the Nazis; How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity

Here is a link:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30611FA345D0C708DDDA80894DA404482

unfortunately though, they want $2.95 for the article and doubt you'd spend a nickel on something that actually cuts against the anti-Christian propaganda you've been spoon fed lately. At least I tried. Like I said, probably pointless in consideration of your abject hatred towards Christianity. You do love your Mom though don't you? Despite her being a fundie?

 

[Raithere]

Faith and healing

Originally posted by wesmorris
Actually I'm convinced this is correct, but not for the reasons normally attributed to it by theists. I would contend that (and this is likely pointless as I'm no phsycian) prayer is effective is twofold:

You forgot #3, the placebo effect. The studies that do demonstrate the effects of prayer in healing also show that prayer has about the same efficacy as placebos do. In this light, theists need to explore why faith in God is no more effective than faith in a sugar pill.

~Raithere

 

[Tiassa]

Placebo effect

The placebo effect has come up elsewhere recently, related to Ufos: BBC: Alien abductees show real symptoms.

I agree with the assertion of a placebo effect for prayer; it is one of prayer's chief mechanisms.

The pseudoscience thread is just a note on the power of placebo.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[wesmorris]

Re: Faith and healing

Originally posted by Raithere
You forgot #3, the placebo effect. The studies that do demonstrate the effects of prayer in healing also show that prayer has about the same efficacy as placebos do. In this light, theists need to explore why faith in God is no more effective than faith in a sugar pill.

~Raithere

Good point! I can't get over thinking my 1) and 2) from above are related or somehow part of the placebo effect....

I think the placebo effect is actually mostly stress related... in that if you get all funked up thinking you got a problem, then you take something you believe will help you... you can defunkificate a bit and let your brain/body/immune system do its thing without jacking it all up.

So to put it in my ever so annoying way:


3) Prayer is an effort that convinces the prayER (given that the prayER is earnest in the endeavor and can concentrate adequetely) that they have done something proactive about the object of their prayer. In turn, the stress related to the object of said prayer is lessened. When not distracted by cumbersome stresses regarding the object of prayers, the human mind can devote itself more directly to the task of its will... thusly prayer in this case could have a measurable effect. (as does the placebo effect)