Overall, and all things considered..is religion good or bad?

[jayterrier]

From what i have read in the bible, religion is a bad thing. The church as described in the bible, is our relationship and devotion to god. Religion is about politics and control. Remember the new testament and how Jesus had more trouble from the church(Jewish(god's chosen children))) than anyone else. Even Moses and Arron took liberty with the "law". The laws became so complicated that no one was capable of keeping them. We take simple decrees and over time distort the very purpose for which they were commanded. Can't see the trees for the forest.

 

[Raithere]

Re: Placebo effect

Originally posted by tiassa
I agree with the assertion of a placebo effect for prayer; it is one of prayer's chief mechanisms.

I concur... although to be contentious I would state that the effect of prayer is entirely psychosomatic. It seems to have no affect beyond what can be demonstrated by other means.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Good point! I can't get over thinking my 1) and 2) from above are related or somehow part of the placebo effect....

They are examples of the mind affecting the physiology. 1 and 2 that you gave are clarity of thought and concentration. There are many demonstrations of these and their affects on the body; primarily in controlling what are typically autonomic functions (heart rate, blood-pressure, pain tolerance, etc.). There is also the fact that mental stress has a detrimental effect upon health. The release of stress then, of course, is beneficial.

Beyond this, however, it seems that positive thought; whether deliberate or through belief (religion, placebo) has its own, measurable, effect. Additionally it has been found that altruism is beneficial to one's health. Helping others, literally, is a way to help one's self.

~Raithere

 

[Nehushta]

Re: It's probably pointless to say this

Originally posted by Bridge
The genocide remark is really way over the top.

But apparently you're okay with the world domination remark. And yes, Christians have practiced genocide in their quest for world domination. For a perspective you are apparently unfamiliar with, read this article (and it won't cost you a dime!):Columbus, The Original American Hero

Then the attempted connection between the occult and Christianity is as impuissant as your attempt to conjoin all Christians with the Westboro Baptist Church. Such grasping at straws!

If I read you right, you seem to want to deny that some Christians practice mysticism, but you haven't offered a shred of proof to back up this assertion. Please note that I have offered you proof that this is indeed the case, as has Tiassa (thank you for the references, Tiassa), although you have ignored this completely (as you have various other proofs I've offered you in this thread).

And I'm not saying that all Christians are like Fred Phelps, by the way - it's pretty much just the Fundamentalists. And yes - I believe that deep down in their hearts, many Fundamentalist Christians are very much like him. (I know too many of them personally to doubt this.)

Obviously the quote to the Vatican, taken in context, also shows how clever Hitler was to consolidate power through means of religion, however, you missed that idea too.

Actually, I granted you that much - apparently you weren't paying attention. I also noted that I believe that our own "religious" politicians have similar motives for their pathetic displays of religiosity. However, I guess you missed that idea too.

Despite that, if you want to believe Hitler was a Christian, hey, you're not alone-- but you are wrong in the technical sense.

You know, if someone comes to me and shows me a diploma from Harvard with their name on it, well then by golly, I accept that that person is a Harvard graduate. That doesn't necessarily mean that they graduated at the top of their class, or that they actually bought into anything their professors taught them, or that they even liked their professors or that their professors liked them. None of that matters - what matters is that they satisfied all of Harvard's academic and other graduation requirements. That's what it takes to be a Harvard graduate.

Now it may take considerably less to be a Christian, but hey - even Christians themselves can't agree on what that entails. I think the fact that the Catholic Church was willing to baptize Hitler and call him a Catholic should suffice, don't you?

Sorry your 'puter locked up. The material is fascinating but it is time consuming to load.

That's okay - probably something to do with having a standard telephone modem, which is something I'm not going to change any time in the near future (I actually don't want people calling me when I'm on the computer!). You're not the first person to direct me to that website, and now I remember why I hadn't read the article before. I do think it would be interesting, and maybe someday I'll be able to take a look at it.

You're right about me not wanting to pay for an article, but maybe I can get the NYC Public Library system to send me a copy for free (I've done that before, but with the Denver Public Library).

You do love your Mom though don't you? Despite her being a fundie?

Yes, I love my Mom - but she can be awfully hard to take. I can't seem to have a conversation with her without her incessant proselytizing! She'll give up for awhile, shake the dust from her feet and all that, but then she'll turn right around and do it again! No rest for the wicked, I guess.

 

[Nightpoet]

I think it depends on the religion, and the people controlling it. I think Christianity is so harmful, because that religion does not teach tolerance and does not allow the practioner to be open to other ideas and other idealogies.
I tihnk the things carried out in the name of religion are horrible and damaging.

I know this sounds totally unimaginitive, but I agree with the apostle from Dogma. Its better to have ideas.

Originally posted by New Life
All the pagan's I know are cruel and love to cast spells (or whatever they do) that are supposed to be harmful to the person they are casting against!

New Life my dear, the idea behind Paganism is to harm none. These people are examples of those that seize power and manipulate it.
And how many pagans do you know?

 

[Bridge]

It is noble

to be against oppression, hate and bigotry. I admire that. I think one has to be careful not to be so enthusiastic about it that they become their own worst enemy.

I understand why we have revisionist history. The picture painted by much of the material on world history has a slant to it, depending on who's doing the presenting and which way they see things. I also know of author's such as David Irving. He is a prime example of the revsionism taken to the extreme. I don't know about this Wade Frazier, the author of the article you cited. I skimmed it tonight but plan on reading through it fully in the days to come and checking his sources and credentials. At first glance I'd say he looks alright but I shudder saying that because his works are frequently posted on anti-semetic websites.

Somehow, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that you have a "Free Mumia" t-shirt in your dresser somewhere? You can have your revised versions of history. You can blame Christians and Jews for all the world's problems. I'd just say don't be so blinded by your own hate that you hate too.


What you seek is what you will find.

 

[Nightpoet]

Re: It is noble

Originally posted by Bridge
The picture painted by much of the material on world history has a slant to it, depending on who's doing the presenting and which way they see things...You can have your revised versions of history.

Hate to get in the middle of this, but doesn't that mean you have your own revised versions of history??

 

[Bridge]

Yes, you're correct

I should revise (no pun intended) that:

You can have your revised versions of history and I'll have mine.






























Even though mine are more correct than yours.

 

[Tiassa]

Quotes coming to mind

"History is a lie agreed upon." (Napoleon)

Well, okay. Not "quotes" in the plural sense. I guess just a quote.

And, besides, who knows if Napoleon actually said that?

Edit!

A note for Raithere:

I concur... although to be contentious I would state that the effect of prayer is entirely psychosomatic. It seems to have no affect beyond what can be demonstrated by other means.

There is also the cathartic.

I keep referring to IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences), but these things apparently take time to build. In the end, I point you back to an article I've brought to Sciforums before. I keep hoping for new developments one way or the other.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Raithere]

The efficacy of intercessory prayer

Originally posted by tiassa
A note for Raithere:There is also the cathartic.

I keep referring to IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences), but these things apparently take time to build. In the end, I point you back to an article I've brought to Sciforums before. I keep hoping for new developments one way or the other.[/color]

Tiassa

Byrd's study is rather hotly contested, however, with question as to whether the double-blind was maintained, etc.:

http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/prayer.html

An AMA article:

The fact is that intercessory prayer has been experimentally evaluated in 8 carefully conducted clinical trials designed and supervised by believing investigators that were published in refereed journals.1-3 The results of these studies are unequivocal: there is no evidence whatsoever that intercessory prayer has any measurable benefits for medical patients.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v162n12/ffull/ilt0624-6.html#rrc1r3

and from a Theistic POV:

We propose that a crud factor–like mechanism is more than sufficient to explain these and other positive distant prayer results, as have others.25-27
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/issues/v161n21/rfull/icm00048.html

And from one of the studies:

RESULTS: At 26 weeks, a primary end point had occurred in 25.6% of the intercessory prayer group and 29.3% of the control group (odds ratio [OR], 0.83 [95% confidence interval (CI), 0.60-1.14]; P=.25). Among high-risk patients, 31.0% in the prayer group vs 33.3% in the control group (OR, 0.90 [95% CI, 0.60-1.34]; P=.60) experienced a primary end point. Among low-risk patients, a primary end point occurred in 17.0% in the prayer group vs 24.1% in the control group (OR, 0.65 [95% CI, 0.20-1.36]; P=.12). CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?db=m&form=6&Dopt=r&uid=11761499

~Raithere

 

[Tiassa]

Excellent!

Thanks, Raithere. I poked around for the data every once in a while, but could never find much aside from the 1998 articles which called for more research.

There is still a cathartic, though. The distant-healing aspect is only one aspect. But there are identity-issues and, as always, baseball.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Raithere]

Re: Excellent!

Originally posted by tiassa
There is still a cathartic, though. The distant-healing aspect is only one aspect. But there are identity-issues and, as always, baseball.

I think there are many psychological benefits in prayer, particularly when it is more than simple placation or homage though there are probably beneficial aspects to that as well.

~Raithere

 

[Nehushta]

Re: It is noble

Originally posted by Bridge
I don't know about this Wade Frazier, the author of the article you cited. I skimmed it tonight but plan on reading through it fully in the days to come and checking his sources and credentials. At first glance I'd say he looks alright but I shudder saying that because his works are frequently posted on anti-semetic websites.

There are also anit-Semitic websites that talk about God and Jesus, and do a lot of bible-quoting, as in this example:

Kingdom Identity Ministries - Doctrinal Statement

So what does that say about God, Jesus and the bible?

Somehow, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that you have a "Free Mumia" t-shirt in your dresser somewhere?

No such t-shirt adorns my wardrobe, but there is supposedly a professional hitman named Arnold Beverly who has confessed to the murder that landed Mumia on death row. From what I understand, a Federal Court Judge and Pennsylvania State Court Judge have both refused to allow Beverly to testify before the court or to be cross-examined on his testimony. What is it about people that makes them want to see someone - anyone - executed for a crime they didn't necessarily commit? Any time someone is arrested for a particularly heinous crime, there seems to be a collective sigh of relief, followed by a chorus of "Good - now hang the s.o.b.!" It doesn't seem to matter one whit to them whether or not the defendent is even guilty of the crime for which they have been arrested! It just makes them feel better to know that someone will pay!

Just to clarify my position on this - I'm not claiming any special knowledge in this case. Maybe Beverly did it, and then again, maybe it was Abu-Jamal after all. But if there's any chance at all that they might have the wrong guy on death row, shouldn't they at least hear the case?

You can have your revised versions of history. You can blame Christians and Jews for all the world's problems.

I don't hate Christians or Jews - but I do dislike the religions to which they adhere and the god that they worship. Oh, and you can include Islam on that list of religions as well.

I'd just say don't be so blinded by your own hate that you hate too.

I'm not sure what you intended to say here, but I think you're warning me against hating people - is that right? Don't worry - I don't hate anyone.

 

[biblthmp]

religion good or bad?

All depends upon which religion you are talking about.

corrupted and adulterated Christianity, like Roman Catholocism has brought much harm.

Biblical Christianity on the other hand has restored many lives from destruction, by restoring the only real source of hope in this world, the risen savior Jesus Christ.

Non-biblical religions have all brought destruction on the earth.

 

[Amie]

religion

I do not think religion itself is a bad thing. I think it depends on how religion is manifested in ones life which makes it "good" or "bad". I feel anytime a religious belief causes a propensity to harm another in any way either physically or emotionally then it is time to abandon that belief or at the very least re-evaluate its purpose in ones life. I see God belief itself as harmless however like many things when taken to extremes it can be severely destructive...

 

[Nightpoet]

Re: religion good or bad?

Originally posted by biblthmp
Non-biblical religions have all brought destruction on the earth.

Can you prove that please?
:m:

 

[wesmorris]

Re: religion good or bad?

Originally posted by biblthmp
Non-biblical religions have all brought destruction on the earth.

Did you think about that much before typing it? It doesn't seem so.

Those warmongering buddists are kicking my ass right now. The Hindus are just encouraging them. What about the religions you've never heard of?

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: religion good or bad?

Originally posted by biblthmp
All depends upon which religion you are talking about.

No true Scottsman would ...

 

[Q25]

religion=bad

I hate religions,especialy xianity,
it teaches lies,like your 6000 years young Earth,that xians thought was was flat,until some atheist scientist showed them otherwise,to thank him they burned him,how nice!
religion is great for controling the minds of simple impresionable people,comes in real handy when you want to fly an airliner into a building full of people,for example,or blowing up an abortion providing clinics/doctors,in the name of God,
or exploiting them financialy
by making them believe they will burn in hell if they don't give enough money to the local God pusher/preacher/hustler!
as far as morality goes,the bible
(the original word of GOD,so lets not hear any crap that it shouldn't be taken literaly) teaches,advises its followers that
slavery,rape,murder,stoning of bad children,etc,is ok.
see www.thewaronfaith.com. and read Bible Quotes.
religion stood in the way of progress,and every improvement of modern life,imo,
if we all believed in bible we would still be living on flat Earth and pray to some skydady to heal the sick instead taking them to the doctors,(some damn imbeciles ie;Jehowas Witless still do,but hey
its a natures way of eliminating the weak/stupid,I guess)
and whats the crock about not being allowed to have sex before marriage?
what if someone wants to stay single?
religion must go before there can be peace on Earth,simple as that.

 

[Bridge]

A mind is a brilliant thing to blow

xians thought was was flat,until some atheist scientist showed them otherwise

Oh brother. Nice level of intellect and understanding on world history. Go take another history class Einstein.

FYI:

In or around 500 B.C., Pythagoras figured out that the earth had to be a sphere. In 400 B.C. a Greek astronomer named Aristarchus promoted the heliocentric concept of the heavens but was pretty much dismissed by those in any position of authority. The reason being that at the time, with the given mathematical tools available, both the geocentric and heliocentric viewpoints were defensible. It was Aristotle and then later Claudius Ptolemy that gave the geocentric viewpoint its lofty position.

Then came Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Galileo.

When the Roman Church attacked Copernicus and Galileo, it was not because their teaching actually contained anything contrary to the Bible. The church authorities thought it did, but that was because Aristotelian elements had become part of church orthodoxy, and Galileo's notions clearly conflicted with them. In fact, Galileo defended the compatibility of Copernicus and the Bible, and this was one of the factors which brought the trial (Schaeffer, p.156).

So the controversy surrounding the "Copernican revolution" was NOT "the Bible vs. science" - it was Aristotelian science (which had been merged with the Bible) vs. the "new" science. The real culprit was the changing nature of medieval science.

2,000 years after he first posited the heliocentric worldview, Aristarchus was ultimately vindicated by Galileo and his immediate predecessors.

religion stood in the way of progress,and every improvement of modern life,imo

Apparently religion didn't hurt LOUIS PASTEUR, ISAAC NEWTON, MICHAEL FARADAY, LORD KELVIN, BLAISE PASCAL, GREGOR MENDEL, JOSEPH LISTER, etc., etc.,

Sources: Schaeffer, Francis. Complete Works. Vol. 5. Westchester, IL: Crossway Books, 1982.

and also

http://www.irr.org/schaefer1.html

 

[Nightpoet]

Re: religion=bad

Originally posted by Q25
religion is great for controling the minds of simple impresionable people,comes in real handy when you want to fly an airliner into a building full of people,for example,or blowing up an abortion providing clinics/doctors,in the name of God,
or exploiting them financialy
by making them believe they will burn in hell if they don't give enough money to the local God pusher/preacher/hustler!
as far as morality goes,the bible
(the original word of GOD,so lets not hear any crap that it shouldn't be taken literaly) teaches,advises its followers that
slavery,rape,murder,stoning of bad children,etc,is ok.
see www.thewaronfaith.com. and read Bible Quotes.

It is the people that distort the words taught to them that are responsible for convincing weak-minded fools who don't have access to the actual text, or just believe the interpretation to fly planes into buildings and blow up abortion clinics.

You know what's better than reading quotes? Reading them in context. Read the Bible. Its tedious, but you'll be much more informed. Most of the books in the Old Testament were written by prophets or scholars about the times. Not all of the books are the supposed "original word of God." NOw I"m not sure about slavery, but rape, murder and stoning is not condoned. Well, not within the Israelite community itself. NOt to mention, what we hear in the Bible from God is second hand. We don't really know for sure if those messages are correct. If so, then some of it is really frightening, I agree.