Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

spidergoat said:
While those are admirable inventions of Muslim and Arab culture, I don't see how you could attribute them to Islam. Anyway, the point you are trying to make breaks down where there are scientific discoveries that seem to contradict some aspects of religious faith, such as evolution.
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Hazrat Hasan al-Basri once fell sick. His neighbour, an unbeliever, came to pay him a visit.

"O Imam," he exclaimed, "I detect a bad smell." The Imam told him it was caused by illness, but the neighbour insisted: "That is not the odor of sickness. It is a lavatory smell. For the love of Allah, tell me what it is!"
He had not noticed that sewage was leaking from his house into that of the Imam.

When the neighbour pressed him, the Imam finally said: "For some months your drain has been seeping through to our side. I tried to fix it, but without success."
His neighbour asked why he had not told him before, but the venerable Imam said: "I might have offended you."

The unbeliever was so impressed by this ethical refinement that he was ennobled with True Faith, for he recognized the Imam's morality as a ray of Islam.



WHAT IS THE USE TO TALK ABOUT CIVILISATION WHEN MAN INSTEAD OF BEING ETHICAL AND PRINCIPLED ;HE OR SHE BECOMES MATERIALISTICCALY INCLINED TO THE EXTANT THAT HUMBEING BECOMES A CHEAP CURRENCY
 
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tresbien

1. please do not post so many stories
2. please post a link to the ones you do post (otherwise, it is plagiarism)

Also, posting verses and hadith over and over is considered preaching and is against the forum rules.

Ashkirk.
 
That story would not impress me.

Didn't you say you don't believe in evolution? It's great to use the number zero and everything, but science has progressed alot since then.
 
Arsalan said:
I did not bring up the Crusades. And labelling these wars of defense as "Crusades", a term which is associated with Europeans slaughtering innocent masses, be they Jew or Muslim, in the Holy Land, is unfair and incorrect as well.
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Firstly, ALL historical evidence points to the fact that after Syria, Egypt, etc... where conquered in the Muslim Crusades there was a total collapse of civilization and a return to subsistence farming. For example, up until the point of being conquered in the Islamic Crusades the cities along the eastern coast of the Mediterranean were renown for having the most sophisticated sculptors. To do so takes a very high level of trade and civilization, specialization, knowledge, etc... after their conquest this industry totally collapsed. Actually, these skills and many others completely vanished - forever, as people returned to working the land just to eat.
Secondly, why is it that there is so little information?

You know, Bush called the war in Iraq a defensive war. Hitler called WWII a defensive war. The Japanese called Korea the dagger poised at the heart of Japan and used this to justify Korea's conquest and colonization by Japan. Hey, and guess what, within a generation people in Korea were worshiping the God Damn Japanese Emperor as their f*cking God and speaking Japanese. Sound a little familiar.

The Islamic Crusades were defensive sure yup got it. Back to rule #1.

Muslims Crusades were wars of defense where no one was harmed and everyone ate lollys and candy and lived on a big sugar cone with a cherry on top.
Xiant Crusades were Blood soaked Bloody Blood .. yup. Now I remember.

Michael
 
Michael said:
Firstly, ALL historical evidence points to the fact that after Syria, Egypt, etc... where conquered in the Muslim Crusades there was a total collapse of civilization and a return to subsistence farming. For example, up until the point of being conquered in the Islamic Crusades the cities along the eastern coast of the Mediterranean were renown for having the most sophisticated sculptors. To do so takes a very high level of trade and civilization, specialization, knowledge, etc... after their conquest this industry totally collapsed. Actually, these skills and many others completely vanished - forever, as people returned to working the land just to eat.
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What historical information? What source?


Muslims Crusades were wars of defense where no one was harmed and everyone ate lollys and candy and lived on a big sugar cone with a cherry on top.
Xiant Crusades were Blood soaked Bloody Blood .. yup. Now I remember.

Michael
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Well the Muslims never ate their victims
Reports of cannibalism were recorded during the First Crusade, as Crusaders reportedly fed on the bodies of their dead opponents following the Siege of Ma'arrat al-Numan. Amin Maalouf also discusses further cannibalism incidents on the march to Jerusalem, and to the efforts made to delete mention of these from western history.

A year after the event, one of the crusader commanders would write to Pope Urban II, explaining their actions as compelled by the lack of food:

"A terrible famine racked the army in Ma'arra, and placed it in the cruel necessity of feeding itself upon the bodies of the Saracens."

The Crusaders committed numerous atrocities against Muslim populations: mass executions, throwing of the heads of Muslim over besieged cities, exhibition and mutilation of naked Muslim cadavers, or cannibalism as in the 1098 Siege of Maarat.

Other chroniclers, such as Radulph of Caen, who participated to the siege of Maarat, describe such scenes without a hint of moral justification:

"In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma'arrat_al-Numan
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Civilization always triumphs, and civilization has no place for religion.
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S.A.M. said:
Ah now Fraggle, I am going to put on my lab coat and ask you to prove that claim.
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Religion--certainly the Abrahamic kind--invariably reinforces tribalism. Tribalism is the anathema of civilization. Abrahamism in all of its long history has never been able to transcend the tribal instinct. Just as soon as one sect manages to evangelize an impressively large group of people into forming a community, it splinters and the factions start battling among themselves. Catholic vs. Protestant vs. Mormon, Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Sufi, even Orthodox vs. Reform in the Jewish community whose size is constrained by its refusal to evangelize. Only when and where secularism begins to moderate the religious, and they learn to see their traditions and icons as metaphors rather than the literal word of a supernatural creature, do they begin to transcend tribalism and show promise of achieving true global civilization.

BTW, read the back of the laundry instruction label on your lab coat. It is a reminder that scientists never "prove" their claims. They merely accumulate evidence. :)
phlogistician said:
I have, and I have seen terrorists clutching AK-47's and a copy of the Koran on Al-Jazeera. That is terrorists deliberately making the link, and your linked article does nothing to dispell that.
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You can't trust the publicity photos produced by bin Laden any more than those from his arch enemy Bush. They are calculated to have an impact, and it works. I've posted a couple of op-eds from seasoned observers of the Middle East, and they insist that the anti-Western terrorist movement is predominantly a political one rather than religious. Their leaders convince us that their people hate us because of religion, and our leaders play into their hands by convincing their people that we hate them because of their religion. If you repeat something often enough people start to believe it--or as Lenin said, it actually comes the truth. Moderate Muslims with no ties to the Middle East except Mecca begin to feel a sense of kinship with the terrorists, and Americans begin to worry that they want to send Muslim armies to America rather than simply expelling the armies of Western capitalist democracy from Mesopotamia. This would all fade away if both sides had less confrontational leaders.

We're hopefully going to get one next year. Much as I have my reservations about Obama, interviews with foreigners strongly suggest that if he enters the White House, the entire world is going to pause and reevaluate America. That might be a good enough reason to elect him.
tresbien said:
Where Are U Q.would U Pls Answer My Questions
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Q isn't the only articulate atheist here and we all have jobs and families and hobbies and other things to do besides sitting at our computers. What did you want answered? This thread is too long to scroll back and find a specific post, sorry.
 
Michael said:
Apologist View B:[/B]
RED HERRING ALERT
European Slavery was worse WAY WORSE. *blab on about Xian and Slavery for a bit as if is somehow relevant* Islam is Perfect. Qur'an is Perfect. All Hail to the Führer! Hail to The Prophet! Allahu Akbar!!! *BOOM*
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Arsalan said:
I dont know what "apologists" youve been talking to then.
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tresbien said:
i would like that u coment on the following passages that show that although some charge islam with barbarity and agression , it can not be compared to what happened to bihops and priests that were killed in the name of religion.
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Making any sense yet Arsalan?

Pretty simply really,
Muslims Crusades = Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice.
Xiant Crusades = Blood soaked Bloody Blood Blood.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah and in the first 100 years of the Arab conquests (check them in the list), the Muslims were mostly the Arabs themselves, not the people who were "conquered"
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I often hear the Japanese telling the Koreans the same thing.

Muslims Crusades = Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice.
Japanese Crusades = Natto and Miso and Everything Kiso.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Religion--certainly the Abrahamic kind--invariably reinforces tribalism. Tribalism is the anathema of civilization. Abrahamism in all of its long history has never been able to transcend the tribal instinct. Just as soon as one sect manages to evangelize an impressively large group of people into forming a community, it splinters and the factions start battling among themselves. Catholic vs. Protestant vs. Mormon, Sunni vs. Shiite vs. Sufi, even Orthodox vs. Reform in the Jewish community whose size is constrained by its refusal to evangelize. Only when and where secularism begins to moderate the religious, and they learn to see their traditions and icons as metaphors rather than the literal word of a supernatural creature, do they begin to transcend tribalism and show promise of achieving true global civilization.

BTW, read the back of the laundry instruction label on your lab coat. It is a reminder that scientists never "prove" their claims. They merely accumulate evidence. :)
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I don't see any evidence here.:p

Just fantasising. ;)

One could easily say that when basic needs are fulfilled, people are free to explore other parts of their humanity. Does not always work too well, as when corporations pay coffee growers 70 cents for a crop and then sell it for $20 a pound (aka free trade), but one hopes they will eventually develop morals.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yeah and in the first 100 years of the Arab conquests (check them in the list), the Muslims were mostly the Arabs themselves, not the people who were "conquered"
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Michael said:
I often hear the Japanese telling the Koreans the same thing.

Muslims Crusades = Sugar and Spice and Everything Nice.
Japanese Crusades = Natto and Miso and Everything Kiso.
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No refutation to the point eh?
 
tresbien said:
I disagree with u.who has contributed to the western civilisationcivilisation.
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Ahhhhh Haaaa Haaaa Haaaahahahaha.... I'm sorry tresbien don't take this the wrong way but - Pffff Haahahahahahaaaahahhaa... Haaa Haaa hahaha...

Yeah Arabic the Perfect language too huh? Haahahaaaa Haaa Haaa.... Yup.

Too funny,
Thank you for that.

Islam is responsible for the European Enlightenment. tee hee ... , Ballet, calculus, sculptor, classical painting, orchestra's symphony, Mozart, Shakespeare's plays, comedy's, tragedies, The Opera ... all of it.

Funny thing is tresbien, if Islam was so influential WHY didn't any of the enlightenment happen in Islamic countries who remained poor superstitious and backwards? odd that one...

Oh,,, maybe that's because someone fed you a load of shit and you ate it up. What next tresbien? Why stop with the Enlightenment?

Islam is also directly responsible for Western Civilization, The Roman Empire, Greek Democracy, The moon landing, Computers, Nuclear Power, The Periodic Table, They discovered Electricity and invented the Telephone, blah blah blah ,..... :roflmao:

tresbien said:
Let us do a brief review of the contribution of Islam to civilization as we know it.

Invention of Zero

First of all, the number zero was invented by Muhammad bin Moosaa
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Haaahhaaaa Haaa

Haaaa haaaaa

Yeah, Muhammad bin Moosaa... Pffff ....



Temporal Lobe for sure,
Michael
 
Michael said:
Ahhhhh Haaaa Haaaa Haaaahahahaha.... I'm sorry tresbien don't take this the wrong way but - Pffff Haahahahahahaaaahahhaa... Haaa Haaa hahaha...


Temporal Lobe for sure,
Michael
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This really bothers you huh?

Your response is exactly the one the British had to Indian works. Not surprising at all, really.
 
Come on SAM - ZERO???

You don't find that a little ... ooo I don't know - STUPID? We both know that the Indians' and Greeks wrote extensively about Zero 1000s of years before Islam. Greeks spent volumes debating the very concept of zero and Indian notation used zero as it is today (Greek astronomers put a dot in the middle)

Why don't I did up the citation for you? Because we had this same God Damn discussion 1 million times and I am tired of spending half the day digging up the citation to post it for you. If anything YOU should remember and YOU should be the one refuting tresbien and Arsalan. The question is: Why aren't you? Go back to the massive thread about art and sculpture and find it yourself. Christ I posted it for YOU three times now.

Why don't you post to tresbien the fact that zero was most certainly NOT "invented" by Muhammad bin Moosaa. I mean Jesus H Christ.

Michael
 
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