Original Sin?

[Lori_7]

786,

Hi...sorry to butt in, but I've often pondered this as well, and the way I understand it is that the Father is a being...a being of some type which is omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent and created the universe...which is a being that I definately can not conceptualize. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of this being...like we as humans have a body and a spirit, so does the Father. And Jesus is the human form of this being...called the Son of God, as Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of the Father. So in essence, all three are different forms of the same thing...one form that is a being...one form that is a spirit...and one form that is a human. Jesus is God come to earth in the flesh...a manifestation of God in the flesh. But since Jesus was born of His own spirit, then He is also His son. He is His own son...and can be because they are two different manifestations of the same being...one human, and one not human, but something else. Trippy...

 

[786]

786,

Hi...sorry to butt in, but I've often pondered this as well, and the way I understand it is that the Father is a being...a being of some type which is omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent and created the universe...which is a being that I definately can not conceptualize. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of this being...like we as humans have a body and a spirit, so does the Father. And Jesus is the human form of this being...called the Son of God, as Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit of the Father. So in essence, all three are different forms of the same thing...one form that is a being...one form that is a spirit...and one form that is a human. Jesus is God come to earth in the flesh...a manifestation of God in the flesh. But since Jesus was born of His own spirit, then He is also His son. He is His own son...and can be because they are two different manifestations of the same being...one human, and one not human, but something else. Trippy...

Let me ask you, Who has the most power? My understanding is that they are equal in everything. So if Jesus wanted his Father to take away "that cup", he did not have to ask his Father. Because the Father didn't have any powers that Jesus himself didn't have. So why did Jesus say something like why thous hast forsaken me. Jesus forsaken himself, if he had the same powers that his Father had. Jesus had the power, and the ability to take "that cup" away from himself. Don't you people get it?

 

[okinrus]

786, they both are of the same divine nature, thus having the same power. But the Son's power proceeds from the Father's. For instance, everything that the Son asks from the Father is given to the Son. Hence, Jesus did not ask that the cup be taken away from him, but for the cup be taken away *if* it was the Father's will. His words are more for our edification than for his own.

So why did Jesus say something like why thous hast forsaken me. Jesus forsaken himself, if he had the same powers that his Father had. Jesus had the power, and the ability to take "that cup" away from himself. Don't you people get it?

I would understand to be an expression of Jesus' physical dispair, because he felt that the Father had forsaken him physically, by allowing death to overcome. Some also understand it to be drawing upon psalm 22

 

[786]

786, they both are of the same divine nature, thus having the same power. But the Son's power proceeds from the Father's. For instance, everything that the Son asks from the Father is given to the Son. Hence, Jesus did not ask that the cup be taken away from him, but for the cup be taken away *if* it was the Father's will. His words are more for our edification than for his own.


I would understand to be an expression of Jesus' physical dispair, because he felt that the Father had forsaken him physically, by allowing death to overcome. Some also understand it to be drawing upon psalm 22

Psalm 22:1-2
22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

Well look at verse 1 and 2.
So Jesus wanted help. Well you can clearly see that God didn't help him. Especially verse 2. He prayed but God did hear his pray. God didn't listen to Jesus. You said God gave Jesus whatever Jesus wanted. Well Jesus wanted help, and to be listened. Why wasn't it given to him?

 

[Jenyar]

Those Psalms were written by David, Jesus quoted them.

Jesus, as a human, had human needs and prayed as any human would - but:

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matthew 26:39)

He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." (Matthew 26:42)

"Abba,[Aramaic for Father] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." (Mark 14:36)

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (Luke 22:42)​

Does it become clear how we could imitate Him?

 

[Godless]

786 the trinity is made up bull shiet, and today we can flatly say it without being persecuted and killed such as this poor gentlemen of past:

The Errors of the Trinity"

A few excerpts from The Errors of the Trinity, which caused such violent actions, follows. Servetus writes:

The philosophers have invented a third separate being truly and really distinct from the other two, which they have called the third Person, or the Holy Spirit, and thus they have contrived an imaginary Trinity, three beings in one nature. But in reality three Gods, or one threefold God, are foisted upon us under the pretence, and in the name of Unity...For with them it is very easy, taking the words in their strict sense, for three beings to exist, which they say and yet strictly, simply, and really, so different or distinct yet one is born of another, and yet all these three are shut up in one jar. Since I am unwilling to mis-use the word Persons, I shall call them the first being, the second being and the third being, for in the Scripture I find no other name for them...Admitting thefore these three, which after their fashion they call Persons, they freely admit a plurality of beings, a plurality of entities, a plurality of Essences, a plurality of substances, and taking the word of God strictly, they will have a plurality of Gods.

He continues:

If this is so, then why the Tritorites are blamed, who say that there are three Gods, for they also contrive three Gods or one threefold one. These threefold Gods of theirs form one composite substance. And although some will not use the word implying that these three have been put together, yet they do use a word that they are constituted together and that God is constituted out of three beings. It is clear therefore that they are Tritories and we have a threefold God. We have become Atheists, man without any God. For as soon as we try to think about God, we are turned aside to three phantoms, so that no kind of unity remains in our conception. What else is being without God but being unable to think about God, when there is always present to our understanding a haunting kind of confusion of three beings, by which we are forever deluded into supposing that we are thinking about God...They seem to be living in another world when they dream of such things for the kingdom of heavens knows none of this nonsense and it is in another way unknown to them, that Scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit.

He adds:

How much this tradition of Trinity has alas, alas! been the laughing stock of Mohammedons only God knows. The Jews also shrink from giving adherence to this fancy of ours, and laugh at our foolishness about the Trinity, and on account of its blasphemies, they do not believe that this is the Messiah promised in their Law. And not only the Mohammedons and the Hebrews, but the very beasts of the field, would make fun of us, did they grasp our fantastic notion, for all the workers of the Lord bless the One God...This most burning plague, therefore, was added and superimposed, as it were, on the new gods which have recently come, which our fathers did not worship. And this plague of philosophy was brought upon us by the Greeks, for they above all men are most given to philosophy; and we, hanging upon their lips, have become philosophers, and they never understood the passages of the Scriptures which they adduced with regard to this matter.

Servetus also stressed what he believed to be the true nature of Jesus:

Some are scandalised at my calling Christ the prophet, because they happen not themselves to apply to him the epithet, they fancy that all who do so are chargeable with Judaism and Mohametism, regardless of the fact that the Scriptures and ancient writers call him the prophet.

Conclusions

The writings of Michael Servetus' The Errors of the Trinity certainly shows that there are those who calls themselves Christians and are yet not blinded by the faults of the Trinitarian dogma. One would no doubt wonder why the Church resorted to persecuting Michael Servetus and his anti-Trinitarian writings instead of debating about it in a scholarly manner, if the Church is certain that the doctrine is undisputable and is indeed an inherent part of the Christian faith.



link

That's how the church took care of busines back then, aren't they great!!

Godless.

 

[Lori_7]

786,

It has to do with will...the Fathers will. Jesus is asking if there is any other way in his Father's will. But throughout Jesus' persecution and tortures and death, he could have put a stop to it at any time. After all, he had a will of his own. Jesus had the gift of free will that is given to all humans. But his will was always that of the Father's will, being one and the same. And that is what Jesus also preached for all of us...that our will be the same as our Father's..."thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven". It's just that I know from personal experience that even though his will is what is best for us, the flesh will fight it every step of the way. The will of the flesh and the will of his spirit oppose each other. The spirit is holy and the flesh is sinful. So in order to adopt the will of the Father, the flesh must be crucified, and that kinda hurts. To Jesus, crucifiction was literal...to the majority of us, it is metaphorical. But when you come to know him, and you experience more and more of his will in your life, and the consequence of sin in your life, you come to realize that his will is so good...it is perfect...it is in your very best interest...it is in perfect love. So even though it may sting your flesh a bit, you adopt his will to your own...you desire to anyway. He helps. All you have to do is sincerely desire his will in your life, and he basically takes it from there to help you and make it as easy on you as possible. Trust me, to the point of a full fledged freak your mind miracle (getting me off drugs). Sometimes though, my flesh cries out. I have had some real temper tantrums...frustrations...yelled at god...cussed him out even. I'm so awful...such a spoiled ungrateful brat at times. And its strange...because deep down inside...I am so eternally grateful, and I love him so much. When you are born again, you can feel the difference between your flesh and your spirit so profoundly. You can feel the war going on inside of you between their wills. And it is those temper tantrum throwing moments when my flesh is crying out in pain...but only because my spirit is winning the battle. And I know that...and he knows that....and he forgives me...and loves me just the same anyway. He is so awesome. Jesus had flesh too...even though he didn't sin...he felt the same things that we all feel...he felt that opposition between the will of his flesh and the will of his spirit. The flesh was foresaken, not the spirit. It was the only way...it was his destiny. It was for his own ultimate good, and to save all of us. The ultimate sacrifice...the spotless lamb of God.

So to clarify, Jesus and we have a will of our spirit which is holy...a will of our flesh which is sinful...therefore opposing wills...and the gift of free will...which is the choice between the two. You can not have both, because they are directly opposing one another, and are mutually exclusive in any particular choice or circumstance. For one to live, the other must die. To choose the will of the spirit, the will of the flesh must die, and vice versa. And ultimately, in this life...the purpose of this life...is to choose a will for all of eternity. Do you want the will of the spirit? That of the Father, who is holy, and who created us and keeps us in perfect love and peace and joy, in eternal life? Or do you want the will of the flesh? That which keeps us in the dark and confused and scared and in pain, sickness, and suffering, until death? Free will is a bitch, but it is a gift that is given in perfect love. Because you can not force love. He never wanted us to be a bunch of puppets for him to play with. And by letting us experience good and evil and the consequences of both in this life, God has given us the knowledge that we need to make an informed and truly voluntary decision as to what we want. He has given us understanding. Because only in that knowledge and understanding of truth, can we come to love him.

 

[786]

Jesus got what he wanted. I see you point about will. But could you answer the verses I posted on Psalms. God didn't help him.

 

[Preacher_X]

Now this is clearly an exageration of Jesus' or better yet a complete fuking LIE
because by prayer no one has been able to move a godamn mountain. Nor made it rain, nor cured AIDS. By prayer the individual only "feels" better, and hopes his or her prayers go answered. MOSTLY ARE NOT!!

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

Now how many christians do you think have asked to be cured from AIDS only to die a few years latters?.

Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

Yea right, People are still waiting to see MT. Everest moved.

you cant expect miracles from God although you sometimes get them. and the Prophets (a.s, s.a.w.) did get miracles, many of them.

and next there are conditions to if your prayer gets accecpted. "God is not a slave, when you need him you call him and when you get what you want you forget him"

and also there are quite a few studies as to if prayer works. i can remember one where they did hospital patients who got prayed by the Chruch and ones who didnt (the people did not know if they were gettomg prayed for or not) and the ones being prayerd for got healed a lot faster.

anyway, foget it, its too hard (for me definatley not to hard for some) saying it to a "Godless" person so im not gonna try. but to sum it up prayer does worlk for me for my family and for millions of other people

 

[Preacher_X]

1. and Lori_7, i havenet read all of your post, just the tope bit but i dont believe that Jesus was killed.

2. i havent read this entire thread only one or two posts so im getting confused, 786 are you Muslim?

3, nice one southstar, i hope we cool now

5. yah! 500 posts!!

 

[786]

1. and Lori_7, i havenet read all of your post, just the tope bit but i dont believe that Jesus was killed.

2. i havent read this entire thread only one or two posts so im getting confused, 786 are you Muslim?

3, nice one southstar, i hope we cool now

5. yah! 500 posts!!

Yeah.

 

[Lori_7]

786,

I did just that in my last post. First of all, those psalms were written by David, not Jesus, and as I explained, David is crying out in the pain of his flesh. You do not live in this world without it...even David...even Jesus...even those who are born again. And living according to the spirit and in his will does a real number on your flesh...it is not easy...the will of your flesh has to die, and that death is painful to the flesh...sometimes physically, sometimes emotionally, sometimes intellectually.

And of course, you must have stopped reading the psalm at verse 2, right where it stopped serving the purpose of your intent, because if you were to read further, it describes all about how god is the deliverer of men who suffer in this world unto his will. In the very next three verses it says this...

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Isreal.
In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted you and you delivered them.
They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

See, what you want is to never cry in the first place right? Isn't that what you are saying? That because men cry, there is no god. Or because men cry out to god, the god they cry to is unworthy or false? No...the very reason that I cry out to god is because I know Him, and I know that He is the only source of truth, love, and peace that may be bestowed upon me. He is my only source of strength and rescue...to keep me and help me through the trials of life, and the pain of the crucifixion of my flesh, which I pray for and seek of my own free will, out of faith...a trust which comes from a true knowledge and understanding of Him and His love, that has developed from a real relationship with Him.

 

[786]

786,

I did just that in my last post. First of all, those psalms were written by David, not Jesus, and as I explained, David is crying out in the pain of his flesh.

Could you please reference me to, what books of the Bible were written by Jesus? I would very much like to know what was written by Jesus.

 

[Godless]

"God is not a slave, when you need him you call him and when you get what you want you forget him"

Funny you should mention "slave" because that is exactly what you are, you'r a slave to your convictions, to your suppose code of ethics and morals, and god is a slave to every whim one desires, though many of those wishes do not come true. God is as slave, because you worship it, with out identifying what god is. Your convictions of a made up ancient entity keeps your mind stagnant.

Religious dogma is a stagnation of human development, the beliefs of anciet past only bring more world wars, and more missery.

However fundamentalist leaders, keep it going "only because they live off the gullible" Visit the Vatican you will know what I mean.

Your "book" of suppose guidance is full of discrepancies, outright lies, contradictions, and borrowed mythology.

Unexplained miracles do not happen to anyone. Most are made up lies, and deceptive, ominous "claims" of such miracles are told only to keep religious "dogma" going. With science religion is loosing it's grip. Hence the Reneissanse was the beggining of your end. However I do admit churches and religious dogma have survived, this only because they adapted to the new freedoms of free thought. I've shown what the churches have done to the unbelievers of the past, I've shown the discrepancies of the bible, it's contradictions, only to be refuted as "out of context" senteces, LOL, the whole fucking bible is "OUT OF CONTEXT" it does not make any sense.

This is why you've got nuts with such ZEAL of religious devotion crashing in to buildings, killing doctors (anti-abortionist) are mostly christians, commiting mass suisides, (Rev. Jim Jones) and seducing children (Dave Karesh, Waco)
and the Catholic glergy.

Is this the religious guidance of the bible?.



Godless.

 

[Lori_7]

786,

None of the bible was written by Jesus. You didn't know that? It was written about Jesus, but not by Jesus. Jesus was a sacrifice...a healer...a teacher...but not a writer. It would not be so credible to write a book as a witness to yourself right? But to have many others, from all walks of life, over many years, in many different ways, and through many different reasons, witness to the identity of the same man...now that is credibility.

 

[Godless]

None of the bible was written by Jesus. You didn't know that? It was written about Jesus, but not by Jesus. Jesus was a sacrifice...a healer...a teacher...but not a writer. It would not be so credible to write a book as a witness to yourself right? But to have many others, from all walks of life, over many years, in many different ways, and through many different reasons, witness to the identity of the same man...now that is credibility.

LOL, What a load of crap!!.

Jesus didn't write anything because he was illiterate, he couldn't write nor read.

the one dumb ass who claims Jesus to be the Messiah was Paul. However for centuries even the Jewish people have discredited the Jesus mesiah myth.

Godless.

 

[786]

786,

None of the bible was written by Jesus. You didn't know that? It was written about Jesus, but not by Jesus. Jesus was a sacrifice...a healer...a teacher...but not a writer. It would not be so credible to write a book as a witness to yourself right? But to have many others, from all walks of life, over many years, in many different ways, and through many different reasons, witness to the identity of the same man...now that is credibility.

You said, "I did just that in my last post. First of all, those psalms were written by David, not Jesus" so I thought Jesus wrote something. But I already knew he didn't. The way you said it, seemed to me that Jesus wrote something. Ok thanks though. Well let me ask you the question that Jesus's apostles were "true" followers, right. Much of the Bible is written by his apostles right. Then lets read a few things here.

Paul tells us how the apostles were wrong and he was right and how even Barnabas followed in their "hypocrisy" and it was necessary for him to show the apostles the truth (in the King James Version, the actual word used by Paul in Galatians 2:13 is diplomatically translated as "dissimulation.." However, in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible which was compiled from more ancient manuscripts than the KJV, the word Paul used is honestly translated as "hypocrisy").

Galatians 2:11-14
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.("hypocrisy" in RSV)
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

So if even the apostles were misguided according to Paul. Then why believe in the books written by the apostles?
Not only that, but even Barnabas, who singled handedly convinced the apostles of the conversion of Paul. This should show us that the words of Barnabas were very understood by the apostles.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Godless: What a load of crap!!

Jesus didn't write anything because he was illiterate, he couldn't write nor read.

the one dumb ass who claims Jesus to be the Messiah was Paul. However for centuries even the Jewish people have discredited the Jesus mesiah myth.
*************
M*W: Good point, Godless.

The Messiah was supposed to be the Messiah the Jews have been waiting on for centuries! If Jesus had been the Messiah, it would be quite clear to the Jews. Jesus was nothing more than a enlightened Rabbi, and if he were doomed to die for anyone, it would have been the Jews. Jesus was a good Jew. He taught Judaism. He taught his people to be good Jews and go to the temple to pray. JESUS DID NOT TEACH CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE! That was Paul, but call it what it is -- Paulianity!

 

[kula]

has anyone explored the concept that the original sin may have been committed by Satan in the Garden of Eden by telling Adam and Eve that he was God. And the possibility that the bible and all contact, believed to be divine, has infact been Satan all along, manipulating us for another purpose.

if , for example God were nature and universal harmony, then Satan may be seen as something that upsets universal harmony. Free will is the only thing that can appear to work against universal balance.

kula

 

[Hisprincess16]

Please answer the following questions.

What is "original sin"?
Who is responsible for the "original sin"? (Adam or Eve)
Did the whole mankind inherit this sin? (is everyone born with a sin?)
(has everyone sinned, even a baby who died after 1 minute of birth?)
Why did we inherit it?

Please provide your reference through the Bible (Chaper:Verse)

Hi.. umm i'll try to answer your questions as best i can. umm i'm a bit confused about what you mean when you say original sin, umm theres nothing about that in the bible but if you mean the first sin it was adam and eve or more specifically Eve ( i'm sure you already know that though) but umm before adam and eve fell into this sin they had perfection, immortal life, complete knowledge of goodness and power but when they disobeyed god on one command he asked the knowledge of all the evil and fear came to mankind so that ment that from that point on men had knowledge of all the bad and evil in the world they could be lied to by the devil and stuff like that. I'm not sure if that really helped you out with much but i tried. so no mankind didn't inherit this sin they only became very susceptible to it because the devil could finly get to them cause now they had the knowledge of "good and evil" remember??