On the Radar: The rise of atheism

S.A.M. said:
I simply follow suit. Do you hold the atheists here accountable for their generalisations or just me?:p
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Not just you, but for some there's just no hope. I think you know better then some characters on here.
I challenge you to find a post of mine in which I generalize any group, so please don't insult me by generalizing atheists.
 
Enmos said:
Not just you, but for some there's just no hope. I think you know better then some characters on here.
I challenge you to find a post of mine in which I generalize any group, so please don't insult me by generalizing atheists.
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You did not answer my question.;)
 
Done, in this very thread was the most recent...although to be honest it was a challenge due to a misunderstanding (I think I worded what I meant oddly). It does prove however that Enmos isn't singling you (or theists) out...

PS turn back to page 3, I responded to u :)
 
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Enterprise-D said:
Low quality videos do not necessarily mean "fake"...there are bandwidth concerns when you can't connect your laptop to your DSL@home when your @home is being razed by angered Americans...
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Have you seen the videos? You do realise that poor bandwidth cannot change the shape of your nose or redirect the placement of eyebrows?
Fundamentalists often target persons that drink and hang out in bars...to appear like a "regular Joe" and to prey on the fact that alcohol is perceived to be a false escape...especially if they happen to catch the attention of a depressed individual. Easy marks.

What does this have to do with anything anyway?
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Did the hijackers say they were al Qaeda?
1. Osama did not actually fly the planes himself, therefore there will exist no video in which he says he did it.
2. Would you, SAM, after having committed a crime of that magnitude, record court-permissable visual evidence of your guilt?
3. Openly applauding the terrorists and inciting more action as they have allows for Osama/Al Queda to be wanted as accessories to the crime. Of course this assumes that you are anywhere near accurate in your opinion that Al Queda didn't commit the actual crime.
4. Osama and allies are STILL clearly motivated to violence by religion as quoted in the same link you provided. Even if Osama had no link as you say, the article contains such quotes as:
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So what is the evidence of his involement in 9/11?

Facts, empirical data only please?
He said he was on a "holy mission" and would soon complete it. He said his mission was to liberate Palestine from Jews. "I promise to fulfil my mission with the help of my followers."

Bin Laden also claimed that thousands of Muslim youths were committed to stand by him. "They are even ready for suicidal missions..."

He said the jihad against anti-Islamic forces would continue "until atrocities against Muslims stopped..."
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[/QUOTE]


Hmm jihad and holy mission. That could involve anything from speaking writing to protesting. Jihad is a very generic term for struggle; I heard on TV that the Afghanis have a jihad on opium.

They were even ready for suicidal missions. So no one has actually performed one yet?

And for future info: I don't read red print.
 
Enterprise-D said:
Done, in this very thread was the most recent...although to be honest it was a challenge due to a misunderstanding (I think I worded what I meant oddly). It does prove however that Enmos isn't singling you (or theists) out...

PS turn back to page 3, I responded to u :)
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He disagreed. He did not single you out.

So you see there is a bias in how he views theists and atheists.:)
 
S.A.M. said:
Have you seen the videos? You do realise that poor bandwidth cannot change the shape of your nose or redirect the placement of eyebrows?
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Yes, I've seen the video...however I have not had the dubious honour of seeing OBL in person for comparison. You have I take it?

S.A.M. said:
Did the hijackers say they were al Qaeda?
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Did I miss the fact that the hijackers are dead?

S.A.M. said:
So what is the evidence of his involement in 9/11?

Facts, empirical data only please?
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Hm. Unfortunately SAM I do not have empirical data. I'm not the investigating power on the case. I can only go on what the media presents and what appears to make sense. Osama is quoted in the videos (that you claim are faked) as being quite the little planner of the escapade.

IMO, it is much more believable that a fundamentalist group (whether Al Qaeda or not) who were pissed off at the US instigated the attacks, as opposed to some clubbing playboys on a joyride in a few Boeings. Your playboys theory is outlandish with no evidentiary base. The Osama link appears to fit the facts much better.

I have no way of actually knowing; I can only trust that law enforcement agencies do their job as we expect.


S.A.M. said:
Hmm jihad and holy mission. That could involve anything from speaking writing to protesting. Jihad is a very generic term for struggle; I heard on TV that the Afghanis have a jihad on opium.

They were even ready for suicidal missions. So no one has actually performed one yet?

And for future info: I don't read red print.
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Sorry, I only colourized the text to show quotes, rather than using 4 or 6 quotation marks ;) I'll italicize next time...

Anyhoo:

- You are using one definition of jihad and the most benign one indeed. A jihad is more widely known as a "holy war against infidels". Since Osama repeatedly uses the word "infidels" when referring to jihad, I will infer that he intends violence. At the very least, it is grounds for an interrogation.
- I don't care whether anyone actually carried out a suicidal mission or not. The fact that they are capable of thinking of carrying out a suicide mission based on religious beliefs indicated (IMO) a mental imbalance.
 
S.A.M. said:
He disagreed. He did not single you out.

So you see there is a bias in how he views theists and atheists.:)
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No there isn't a bias. I do not 'single people out' because of their religion, if I do I do it because of their actions.
There are few bigots on here that I have 'singled out'. You can have their names if you want (if I can remember them).
Btw. many other people have truly been singling you out, you didn't see me contributing to that..
Can you please clear up when something becomes 'singling out' in stead of 'disagreeing' ? I'm not entirely clear on that.
 
S.A.M. said:
He disagreed. He did not single you out.

So you see there is a bias in how he views theists and atheists.:)
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Well, honestly SAM...I also have a bias as to how I view theists vs atheists. I also have a bias as to how I view men vs women, cars vs planes, pizza vs lasagne etc.

Theists tend to be emotive, arguing based on what they feel and believe. Atheists usually are more logical, using evidence, facts and scientific theory to illustrate their points. Clearly there has to be some sort of discernment when reading arguments from these two groups.

You also have a similar bias, however you tend to support theists more often and I have yet to see you agree with anything a non-theist says. Especially when they challenge the views of Islam.

If we did not have bias, there'd be no debates...
 
I do have to agree that the recent press time being given to Atheism is interesting. On the positive side I think that Dawkin's book "The God Delusion" have had something to do with it, then there's Sam Harris's recent antics.

Unfortunately, most of it is more reactionary. In the USA we have the Theists trying to wedge ID theory into the science classroom, and we have a president who is stopping federal funding for embyonic Stem Cell research based on a religious conviction. Add to that the European discomfort with their Muslim immigrants, the 9/11 incidents in the USA, the 6/6 London underground bombings and it is no wonder that Atheists and Agnostics are asking questions and rightly so.

Recently there was a special 3 part series on CNN called "God's Warriors", which reviewed the extremeism in all 3 abrahamic religions in 2 segments.

Even more recently we have muslims calling for the deaths of a Sweedish cartoonist for an unflattering portrayal of Mohammed. This and other incidents that have happenned in the past (there was a similiar Danish incident a couple years back), and it's as if Islamicists get very angry about any criticism of their sacred icons. I do think that it is a good thing that we get this stuff out in the open. Some might think that al-Quaeda is blameless for 9/11 and 6/6, but I do believe that there is good evidence that they were involved. Regardless of whether or not it was AQ (of which there is little doubt), Islam was involved in both incident. We've also seen suicide bombers in Israel and it is clear that Islam is tied up with the psyche of the terrorist. The real question is, does Islam promote this behaviour, or is Islam easily perverted into promotion of this behaviour.

The common factor I see is that we seem to be seeing a surge in religious extremeism in a time when religions should be becoming more and more moderate.

Note to the other poster...i'm going to do a little looking around, but my understanding from news agencys on both sides of the atlantic, (I'd been living in London and Normandy for the past 4.5 years and recently returned to the states) That Al-Quaeda not only was responsible for 9/11 and 6/6, but that they have openly took credit for them. I'll do a little more research on this as I was unaware that there was any challenge to that position.

I am familiar with and have done some work on one aspect of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, especially the Pentagon incident. My conclusion is exactly that a American Airlines 757 is what hit the Pentagon, and the evidence is overwelming. It is also clear from cell phone calls made from passengers in that aircraft that the perpetrators were middle eastern and identified themselves as Muslims. (transcripts of cellular phones calls made from the AA flight that struck the Pentagon are public record).
 
Papaver2005 said:
Recently there was a special 3 part series on CNN called "God's Warriors", which reviewed the extremeism in all 3 abrahamic religions in 2 segments.

Even more recently we have muslims calling for the deaths of a Sweedish cartoonist for an unflattering portrayal of Mohammed. This and other incidents that have happenned in the past (there was a similiar Danish incident a couple years back), and it's as if Islamicists get very angry about any criticism of their sacred icons.
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Yep. Watch the whining by Muslims commence on this board if one of us posted a jpg of an image of Mohammed on here.
 
Nickelodeon said:
Why, what does he look like?
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What did the Mohammed that the Danish newspaper posted look like?

The one that I would post is on a tshirt. It's a cartoon drawing of him with one of those spherical bombs (like you saw on Bugs Bunny cartoons) in his turban.
 
Here is a pretty good Wikipedia entry on the 9-11 hijackers. Several of the hijackers were known members of Al-Quaida, and the financiers of the hijackings approved their plan with bin Ladin prior to the attacks. Regardless, bin Ladin is responsible for the previous attack on the world trade center and that is the reason he was stripped of his citizenship in Saudi Arabia and was on the run in Afghanistan. Bin Ladin founded Al-Quaida. The guy is a scumbag. Period. Al-Quaida has also claimed responsibility for a number of other bombings before and after 9-11. Every member of this terrorist group should be hunted down and killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

My problem with religious people in general is their utter bigotry and hypocracy. You wouldn't believe what I heard while watching a catholic television show early sunday morning a couple weeks ago. They are on a razers' edge parallel with Al-Quaida in terms of their extremist views. Then there are the conflicts in India between muslims and hindus, the violence and bombings carried out by sikhs, and the attacks on secular education by protestants all over North America. I would list all the problems religionists are causing around the world, but it would take a LIFETIME to list them all and the job would still be unfinished. The only people making more trouble and making more headlines are common criminals and politicians!

I have a very dim view of religious people.
 
Harmonic_Subset said:
Here is a pretty good Wikipedia entry on the 9-11 hijackers. Several of the hijackers were known members of Al-Quaida, and the financiers of the hijackings approved their plan with bin Ladin prior to the attacks. Regardless, bin Ladin is responsible for the previous attack on the world trade center and that is the reason he was stripped of his citizenship in Saudi Arabia and was on the run in Afghanistan. Bin Ladin founded Al-Quaida. The guy is a scumbag. Period. Al-Quaida has also claimed responsibility for a number of other bombings before and after 9-11. Every member of this terrorist group should be hunted down and killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

My problem with religious people in general is their utter bigotry and hypocracy. You wouldn't believe what I heard while watching a catholic television show early sunday morning a couple weeks ago. They are on a razers' edge parallel with Al-Quaida in terms of their extremist views. Then there are the conflicts in India between muslims and hindus, the violence and bombings carried out by sikhs, and the attacks on secular education by protestants all over North America. I would list all the problems religionists are causing around the world, but it would take a LIFETIME to list them all and the job would still be unfinished. The only people making more trouble and making more headlines are common criminals and politicians!

I have a very dim view of religious people.
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Known members of al Qaeda? From the FBI report, yes?

:rolleyes:


Bin Laden's apparent attempt to distance himself from involvement in 9/11 dovetails with statements made shortly after the event in which he told a Pakistani newspaper that he was not involved in the attacks.

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States," Bin Laden told Ummat, "As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle."

The supposed Osama "confession video" in which the terrorist leader discusses how the attacks were carried out has been widely debunked as a hoax. On closer analysis, the individual in the tape is clearly not Bin Laden and he makes statements completely inconsistent with Bin Laden's previous public comments. Other so-called Al-Qaeda tapes have been directly traced back to the Pentagon and Donald Rumsfeld.

Though the information provided by Bentley is third or fourth hand, it makes interesting reading nonetheless when compared with previous statements from individuals with close ties to Bin Laden

The White House regularly intones that critics of President Bush are in some way aiding the enemy but it was not until recently that the media picked up on a similar tack in trying to smear anyone who questions the official version of 9/11 as being sympathetic with Al-Qaeda or even a recruiting aid for terrorists.
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I have a very dim view of your ability to sift fact from fiction
The Al-Qaidah group had nothing to do with the 11 September attacks on the USA, according to Usama bin Ladin in an interview with the Pakistani newspaper Ummat. Usama bin Ladin went on to suggest that Jews or US secret services were behind the attacks, and to express gratitude and support for Pakistan, urging Pakistan’s people to jihad against the West. The following is the text of an interview conducted by a "special correspondent", published in the Pakistani newspaper Ummat on 28 September, place and date of interview not given.
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http://www.911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html
 
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