On the grounds of what are Christians so sure they will go to heaven?

[joepistole]

I don't think there is one answer that applies equally to all Christian sects. Some sects, like Sandy's, believe that heaven is achieved by grace and the belief in Christ. Other sects, require more individual action...similar to Judaism. Some believe in varying levels of heaven...e.g. purgatory. Mormons have a more complex view of heaven with 3 levels or degrees of heaven.

Christians, depending on sect, have varying views of heaven and how to get there. But the all require a belief in Christ.

 

[sandy]

I just believe what the Bible says. I think the sects/denominations have really twisted His Word.

 

[CptBork]

We are not "emotional beings". We are spirits. We live in a body. We have a soul (mind, will, emotion). Getting into Heaven is easy. All you have to do is get "born again"* according to the Bible. It really is that simple. You don't work your way into Heaven and you don't go for being a good person. You go because once you are saved (born again) you are a child of God/Jesus, and Heaven is for His kids.
*or be a Jew. They are God's chosen.

No offense, but it almost sounds like you were programmed in C++ or something. Whoever did it, I must commend them on a fine job, malicious though it may be.

#include <Bible.h>
using namespace Bornagain;

void testfaith();
int main() {...}

void testfaith()
{
if (belief_in_Bible != 1) {
     threaten->sanctions->damnation();
// Requires future editing as new punishments are invented

     if (threaten->sanctions.intimidated == 0) {
          for (int i = 0; i<100000; i++) arguments->activate(srand(i),"fury");
     }
     else { ... }
     
...}
...}

 

[pjdude1219]

Ok, then let's start with that. I know that I know that I am going straight to Heaven when I die. There will be no stops along the way. I know because Jesus told me, and I believe EVERYTHING He says. How about you?

I'm not a christian and I don't believe in heaven though I have read the bible and it disagrees with you and your jesus.

 

[pjdude1219]

I just believe what the Bible says. I think the sects/denominations have really twisted His Word.

You mean like those crazy born again sects?

 

[Thoreau]

Ugh, all this talk about who's right and wrong and the condemnation that comes with it...

The idea that you call "right" is the idea that someone else calls "wrong." The solution that you call "perfect" is the solution that another calls "unworkable." The position that you feel is unassailable is the very position that others assail.

There’s nothing “wrong” with anything. “Wrong” is a relative term, indicating the opposite of that which you call “right.” Yet, what is “right”? Can you be truly objective in these matters? Or are “right” and “wrong” simply descriptions overlaid on events and circumstances by you, out of your decision about them?

Your ideas about right and wrong are just that—ideas. They are the thoughts which form the shape and create the substance of Who You Are. There would be only one reason to change any of these; only one purpose in making an alteration: if you are not happy with Who You Are.

What will solve all of this? Not attack, that's for sure. And not defense, either. So what is left? Simple human love. The kind of love that says, "It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. It only matters that you are not hurt. And that we both can benefit. All true benefits are mutual."





"We are all one. Ours is not a better way, ours is merely another way." - NDW

 

[Photizo]

Via a circular argument. It goes like this:

1. The bible is an infallible source that was written by God.
2. The bible reports Jesus as saying that belief in God could guarantee you a place in heaven (if I remember correctly).
3. This has been extended by the happy clappers to include belief in Jesus as one's personal saviour.
4. We know that the bible is infallible because it was written by God.
5. We know that God exists because the bible says he does, and the bible is infallible.

Woe to you.

 

[James R]

Woe to you.

Yeah, woah, baby! Get down.

 

[spidergoat]

I just believe what the Bible says. I think the sects/denominations have really twisted His Word.

That's interesting, since Christianity is really a sect of Judaism.

 

[joepistole]

Does it really matter?

If people believe they are going to heaven wither they be Christian or Jew or some other religion, who has the right to say otherwise? If people feel/believe they are going to heaven, so be it.

 

[sandy]

No offense, but it almost sounds like you were programmed in C++ or something. Whoever did it, I must commend them on a fine job, malicious though it may be.

Nah, programmed by the Bible, Jesus, and some good preachers/teachers. I needed it.

That's interesting, since Christianity is really a sect of Judaism.

Maybe in the early days. Not now. Christianity is Christ-worship. Judaism is God-worship.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

That's interesting, since Christianity is really a sect of Judaism.

*************
M*W: I would consider the early sect of christianity (if one could call the Essenes that) more of a philosophy of a progressive Judaism. I would say that is pretty much what you said.

 

[spidergoat]

Nah, programmed by the Bible, Jesus, and some good preachers/teachers. I needed it.



Maybe in the early days. Not now. Christianity is Christ-worship. Judaism is God-worship.

If Christ and God are different, aren't you worshiping the wrong thing?

 

[Jan Ardena]

sandy,

We are not "emotional beings". We are spirits. We live in a body. We have a soul (mind, will, emotion). Getting into Heaven is easy. All you have to do is get "born again"* according to the Bible. It really is that simple. You don't work your way into Heaven and you don't go for being a good person. You go because once you are saved (born again) you are a child of God/Jesus, and Heaven is for His kids.
*or be a Jew. They are God's chosen.

Could you explain what it actually means to be "born-again", the process of becoming B.A, and where it is all stated in the bible

jan.

 

[Lori_7]

sandy,



Could you explain what it actually means to be "born-again", the process of becoming B.A, and where it is all stated in the bible

jan.

i forget what book it's in, but jesus is having a conversation with nicodemus and explains it to him.

 

[Adstar]

sandy,



Could you explain what it actually means to be "born-again", the process of becoming B.A, and where it is all stated in the bible

jan.

Jesus tried to explain to the High Priest that in His current flesh state he could not enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus used the term Born Again to show that we must be resurrected and changed into a perfect Being before we can be acceptable to exist with God in eternity.

So being Born Again is starting out again as a new changed / perfected creation after the resurrection. Only then can one have eternity with God.

Now some organised religions have changed the meaning, to them the change happens when one accepts the Messiah Jesus as Lord and Redeemer and is baptised into their church. That’s why they call themselves born again after the baptism.

I look forward to being Born Again upon the resurrection, or if God is willing upon the rapture. Either way being born again will not happen to me until i am changed by God into my eternal state of being.

Here is the scripture in question not a long read:

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Photizo]

Jesus tried to explain to the High Priest that in His current flesh state he could not enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus used the term Born Again to show that we must be resurrected and changed into a perfect Being before we can be acceptable to exist with God in eternity.

So being Born Again is starting out again as a new changed / perfected creation after the resurrection. Only then can one have eternity with God.

Now some organised religions have changed the meaning, to them the change happens when one accepts the Messiah Jesus as Lord and Redeemer and is baptised into their church. That’s why they call themselves born again after the baptism.

I look forward to being Born Again upon the resurrection, or if God is willing upon the rapture. Either way being born again will not happen to me until i am changed by God into my eternal state of being.

Here is the scripture in question not a long read:

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

First of all, Nicodemus was not "the High Priest". Nowhere in the Gospels is Nicodemus refrred to as a priest. The text merely says he was "a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews". Later in the exchange Jesus calls him "a teacher of Israel".
Time constraints prevent me from replying further at this time, but I will deal with the rest of your comments later.

 

[Adstar]

First of all, Nicodemus was not "the High Priest". Nowhere in the Gospels is Nicodemus refrred to as a priest. The text merely says he was "a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews". Later in the exchange Jesus calls him "a teacher of Israel".
Time constraints prevent me from replying further at this time, but I will deal with the rest of your comments later.

You are right. He was not the High Priest. I stand corrected.

But He was a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews. He was one of the religious elites.

Later on when the Chief priests where in council seeking the arrest of Jesus Nicodemus was there with them.

John 7
45 Then the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees, who said to them, “Why have you not brought Him?”
46 The officers answered, “No man ever spoke like this Man!”
47 Then the Pharisees answered them, “Are you also deceived? 48 Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him? 49 But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.”
50 Nicodemus (he who came to Jesus by night, being one of them) said to them, 51 “Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?”
52 They answered and said to him, “Are you also from Galilee? Search and look, for no prophet has arisen[k] out of Galilee.”

Nicodemus was one of them. He was not just a lowly ranked rabbi in the hierarchy of the Jewish religious Authorities.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[kurros]

Ugh, all this talk about who's right and wrong and the condemnation that comes with it...

The idea that you call "right" is the idea that someone else calls "wrong." The solution that you call "perfect" is the solution that another calls "unworkable." The position that you feel is unassailable is the very position that others assail.

There’s nothing “wrong” with anything. “Wrong” is a relative term, indicating the opposite of that which you call “right.” Yet, what is “right”? Can you be truly objective in these matters? Or are “right” and “wrong” simply descriptions overlaid on events and circumstances by you, out of your decision about them?

Your ideas about right and wrong are just that—ideas. They are the thoughts which form the shape and create the substance of Who You Are. There would be only one reason to change any of these; only one purpose in making an alteration: if you are not happy with Who You Are.

So you believe that any quest for objective truth is futile? Because it seems to me that there are lots of things we can all objectively agree on, is it not worth working hard to discover as close to the objective truth as possible? I remember reading something about treating it like an optimisation problem, we need moral standards such that we optimise the global distribution of freedom and happiness (not just for ourselves but for future generations too). Such ideas surely contain something of objective (even logical) merit.

 

[Thoreau]

So you believe that any quest for objective truth is futile? Because it seems to me that there are lots of things we can all objectively agree on, is it not worth working hard to discover as close to the objective truth as possible? I remember reading something about treating it like an optimisation problem, we need moral standards such that we optimise the global distribution of freedom and happiness (not just for ourselves but for future generations too). Such ideas surely contain something of objective (even logical) merit.

Religion and religious experiences are subjective because their scriptures are made to be subjective - open to interpretation. There is no truths to be found other than your own truths. One of the few things that could be objective within the various beliefs is the agreement to not treat each other negatively based on the religious differences and individual "experiences". For something to act as evidence or to be a truth, it first must be widely accessible so that it can be tested. Religious experiences, though, are not widely accessible, and so they cannot be tested; they therefore cannot count as evidence for religious belief and thus, going back to my previous statement, there are no truths to be found other than your own. Religious experiences are merely mental events, and there is therefore no logical problem with our having these experiences without the world being as they represent it to be.