Oklahoma - Police kill 5 year-old child

[Tiassa]

Splittin' hairs (but not with a .40-caliber round)

The question that should be answered is; was he trigger happy?

It depends, I guess, on how we define trigger happy. Only one officer discharged a weapon. Three officers responded. Three officers have been suspended from duty. Under certain circumstances, an officer needs permission from a supervisor. The shooter was a rookie, and a veteran shift supervisor is among the suspended. All of that considered, it seems that there was time to ask and receive permission to shoot.

The most recent news I can find:

Two other officers, including a sergeant, were there at the time of the shooting of what turned out to be a harmless black rat snake that is sometimes mistaken for a dangerous snake, he said. A .40-caliber handgun was used in the shooting ....

.... The internal investigation will center on whether police policies were violated.

“We have a use of force policy that even has a section that deals with shooting an animal,” Wade said. “And it pretty much lays it out that it has to be a threat. The shooting has to be the result of a situation that endangers human life.”

The city of Noble had no animal control officer at the time of the shooting. Still, there were options open to the officers other than gunfire, Wade said. (News Examiner-Enterprise)

I'm thinking the investigation will show that their actions fall somewhere between, "Shoot it ... we don't have time for this crap," and, "Yeah ... heh ... blast the effin' thing." I don't think it was, "Holy crap! (bang-bang!)".

 

[Orleander]

So, are there any updates on this story. has the officer been charged?

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

Investigation will take "a couple weeks". We shouldn't expect any decisions on charges until then. I'm guessing that they will be charged with something, though. The City has chosen their words carefully throughout, and, unlike New York or Seattle, it seems small-town police departments just haven't the time to jerk the people around on this.

 

[Cortex_Colossus]

It depends, I guess, on how we define trigger happy. Only one officer discharged a weapon. Three officers responded. Three officers have been suspended from duty. Under certain circumstances, an officer needs permission from a supervisor. The shooter was a rookie, and a veteran shift supervisor is among the suspended. All of that considered, it seems that there was time to ask and receive permission to shoot.

The most recent news I can find:

Don't you agree that this should be made into an example of what not to do in future situations? And that in order for this example to be indoctrinated into the police training procedure and to hold more water it would need to be stigmatized?

I'm thinking the investigation will show that their actions fall somewhere between, "Shoot it ... we don't have time for this crap," and, "Yeah ... heh ... blast the effin' thing." I don't think it was, "Holy crap! (bang-bang!)".

Ah but that would make the police trigger happy fucks. Why handle a gun while so near a child? This only surmises to be a case of lack of patience or thought.

 

[Enterprise-D]

“The officer decided shooting the snake would be the best option,” said OSBI spokesperson Jessica Brown. “They heard a splash in the pond from the first shot. The second shot struck the 5-year-old in the head.” (Norman Transcript, August 4, 2007)

• • •​

If they had time to register a splash in a pond, and given that the tree and house were probably a reasonable distance away from the pond in order for the splash sound to travel back and register in the memories of the officers and homeowner, would that have not been enough to signal "hey, the bullet isn't going where we think it should"?

 

[zanket]

I voted "other". I'd give the officer a choice: five years in prison, or five years at his current salary educating other cops about the perils of using their guns unnecessarily. The family should get some money, but not gobs of it.

 

[Tiassa]

I voted "other". I'd give the officer a choice: five years in prison, or five years at his current salary educating other cops about the perils of using their guns unnecessarily.

An interesting idea. Should we extend that to all accidental killings, or just the cops?

The family should get some money, but not gobs of it.

A friend of a friend ... anyway, one day a young man only a couple weeks shy of his 18th birthday is gunned down by a friend. The shooter claims it was an accident. A couple of years in juvenile detention, and restitution to the family. That restitution was a little under $1,150, and didn't even cover the cost of the funeral. That's what human life is worth in Oregon. At least, sixteen years ago.

 

[§outh§tar]

If you caught the cop in the act of killing your son and were overcome with rage and grief (and the certainty that he will not be held accountable in a redneck state), I would forgive you for temporarily losing your connection to civilization and killing the sonofabitch. I promise. If that ever happens, try to get me on your jury.

But I will not condone you killing his son. That is not "the heat of passion." That is damn cold-blooded murder of an innocent. That is two wrongs trying to make a right. That is how we end up with places like the Middle East, where civilization has completely collapsed.

Remember that the fundamental rule that supports the continuity of civilization is: "You don't get to kill anybody, except in self defense when there's no other way. Not ever. Not for any reason."

Thanks for the guaranteed support, Fraggle.

There was some degree of hyperbole and sarcasm there (how often do I use Christianity to justify my moral actions?). My point was that if anyone killed my only begotten son, God help me, I don't know what I'd do but I might do something nasty. Besides the (not innately human) desire for civility, there are the innately human desires for revenge and bashing in the heads with those who fuck with your kids. I heard a joke some time ago that went something like this (maybe it wasn't a joke and the person was being serious): Regardless of how badly a black mother slaps and beats and yells at her kids, woe betides the wretch who dares to lay a finger on her baby.

I don't think that's a cultural thing. I'd like to think not?

 

[juju]

That is so sad. Why did he want to kill the snake??? Hasn't he heard of backing off?
Oh well, the damage has been done and he'll have to live with himself.

 

[§outh§tar]

I wonder why Michael Vick is more important to PETA than this episode. Could it be because Michael Vick brings in the money and publicity or could it be because this one involves human life?

 

[zanket]

An interesting idea. Should we extend that to all accidental killings, or just the cops?

Some form of the idea to all accidental killings. I think it would be more effective as a deterrent than prison.

That restitution was a little under $1,150, and didn't even cover the cost of the funeral.

$1,150 would of course add insult to injury. Millions would be a windfall.

 

[pjdude1219]

i just knew the snake would turn out to be harmless hell the type of snake in question is sometimes used by farmers in stead of a cat to control mice in a farm their very benifitial animals

 

[Lord Hillyer]

Why would a law-enforcement officer be taking pot-shots at a creature in its rightful habitat with his duty weapon? Is it against Oklahoma law for snakes to climb trees?

The officer should have immediately been given a lifetime ban from possessing firearms or holding positions of public trust. Then he should be made to walk through a snake pit with only a pink plastic water pistol.

The town's police department should be disbanded, all their equipment liquidated, and the proceeds sent to the victim's family. The sheriff's office can patrol the area until the townsfolk can evolve far enough beyond the brain-stem to sustain unarmed police as per the UK/Mayberry model.

The town's mayor could also use replacing.

 

[Orleander]

UPDATE

NOBLE, Okla. -- Cleveland County's top prosecutor has decided to prosecute two Noble officers involved in the shooting death of a 5-year-old boy.

A Noble officer fired his gun at a snake more than a month ago, and the bullet ricocheted and hit 5-year-old Austin Haley in the head.

The Noble Police Department and the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation looked into the case.

Cleveland County District Attorney Greg Mashburn explained on Friday that he took no pleasure in filing a pair of second-degree manslaughter charges against the officers, identified as Brad Rogers and Shawn Richardson.

They could face up to four years in prison if convicted of the felony charge.

However, he said that the officers failed to take reasonable care by firing shots in an open area at a non-poisonous snake. According to police reports, the officers responded on Aug. 3 to a report of a snake in a birdhouse.

Jack Tracy said he was fishing with Austin that night when he saw the first shot hit the water near where they were standing. As he pulled his grandson to his side, he said, a second shot hit the boy in the head.

 

[s0meguy]

Man, what's the chances of this happening.

So they're both prosecuted? I guess only one of them shot and it probably can't be proved who did. Plus noone actually saw them shooting. I don't think that the prosecutors stand much chance here?

I don't really think that they should be charged with murder. They didn't do it on purpose, there is no point in prosecuting them. This is not the purpose of 'the system'. It's supposed to keep dangerous people from damaging society.

 

[Tiassa]

Notes around

I guess only one of them shot and it probably can't be proved who did. Plus noone actually saw them shooting. I don't think that the prosecutors stand much chance here?

Authorities have confirmed that the fatal shot was discharged by rookie Officer Paul Rogers. The other officer charged, Sgt. Robert Richardson, is likely charged for approving the shooting. ("Except for exigent circumstances, supervisor approval is required", see Norman Transcript, Aug. 10, 2007.)

According to District Attorney Greg Mashburn,

"I conclude that these officers failed to do something that a reasonably careful person would do by firing a weapon at a nonpoisonous snake that was stuck in a birdhouse without knowing what laid behind their location .... Although this event was accidental, with reasonable care and caution, the death of a child could have been avoided, and there must be some level of accountability for those officers that were involved.” (Griswold)

According to the NewsOK.com, after reviewing the incident Mashburn could not treat the case differently than any other accidental shooting. In post #73, I reviewed what appeared to be the applicable laws, including 21-732, which excuses police officers of manslaughter if they have reasonable belief that the killing is necessary. Apparently, Mashburn did not feel this case met that standard.

In that post, I also noted my failure to find a definition of "culpable negligence", the basis for the manslaughter charge. According to the Norman Transcript:

The second-degree manslaughter is based upon “culpable negligence,” Mashburn said.

“Culpable negligence is defined as the omission to do something a reasonably careful person would do. Based on my review of the OSBI report and my viewing of the scene, I concluded these officers failed to do something that a reasonably careful person would do by firing a weapon at a non-poisonous snake that was stuck in a birdhouse without knowing what lay behind their location,” he said. (Blakey)

They didn't do it on purpose, there is no point in prosecuting them. This is not the purpose of 'the system'. It's supposed to keep dangerous people from damaging society.

When I took an ADIS course while handling issues pertaining to a DUI arrest, one of my classmates had gotten popped for a BAC of 0.01%. Clearly, he had even better cause than I did for thinking he was okay to drive (I blew a 0.088%). Had he gotten in a wreck and killed someone (he was pulled over initially for speeding), he would have been prosecuted for manslaughter even though it would not have been intentional. Even in my case, it's not like I was trying to drive under the influence, and being told by my passenger and other comrades that I was fine to drive certainly didn't do anything to create doubt about my capability. Should drunk drivers who kill someone be given the grace you suggest? (Mind you, I don't object; rather, I'm not sure how I feel about the notion.)

The fact that 21-732 appears to not apply in the DA's mind is encouraging; I'm thinking the officers will attempt to plead down.

• • •​

Don't you agree that this should be made into an example of what not to do in future situations? And that in order for this example to be indoctrinated into the police training procedure and to hold more water it would need to be stigmatized?

Absolutely. And, for what it's worth, so does the family.

Jack Haley said he wants the officers to be taken off the force and never be allowed to be officers again. Renee Haley said she would like to see the scenario used in police academies to train officers about what to do in this type of situation. (Griswold)

Ah but that would make the police trigger happy fucks. Why handle a gun while so near a child? This only surmises to be a case of lack of patience or thought.

They didn't know there was a child near, and didn't bother to check.

The two officers first attempted to remove the large black snake from the birdhouse using “a yard implement handle and a police asp baton,” but were unsuccessful. The snake was hanging, headfirst, approximately one foot and 10 inches out of the birdhouse entrance, hissing at the officers, the OSBI report states.

Richardson told the other officers, “I guess we’ll have to shoot it.” The officers then asked a neighbor if there was anything in the area behind and east of the residences, and were told it “was all field and there was nothing in the heavily wooded area.”

Richardson then told Rogers to kneel down so he could shoot at the snake. An eyewitness said she heard the officers “discuss shooting toward a large tree, which she understood to mean they wanted to use the tree to stop the bullets.”

Within a few seconds after the second shot was fired, the officers said they heard someone screaming from the wooded area southeast of the back yard. They ran to the back of the residence, jumped over a fence and came upon the ATV, with Austin lying in the back and Jack Haley screaming that his son had been shot, according to court documents. (Blakey)

I don't think I'll go with "trigger-happy". "Deathly stupid" suffices.
____________________

Notes:

Staff. "Questions still arise". Norman Transcript. August 10, 2007. See http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_222012328

Griswold, Jennifer. "Rookie fired the shot that proved deadly for 5-year-old". NewsOK.com. September 8, 2007. See http://newsok.com/article/3120824/1189230014

Blakey, Tom. "Noble officers charged". Norman Transcript. September 7, 2007. See http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_250160900.html​

 

[s0meguy]

Should drunk drivers who kill someone be given the grace you suggest? (Mind you, I don't object; rather, I'm not sure how I feel about the notion.)

Nope, while they are dangerous, I think that the drunk driver should be given a more suitable punishment. For example they get to choose: long prison time for murder OR a strictly enforced course to reduce or stop their addiction to alcohol and if they are ever found to be driving drunk again, they'll receive 1,5 (or double) times the prison time. Maybe a fine added to that, that they have to pay periodically, that remembers them of what they did and makes them regret it or something.

Keep in mind that I just made this up on the spot and didn't really think it through yet. But anyway not only would it probably reduce the amount of prison inmates and thus the costs, but I think it'd make for a healthier society too if people were 'fixed' instead of put in prison, after which they'd continue the same behavior anyway.

 

[Tiassa]

Nope, while they are dangerous, I think that the drunk driver should be given a more suitable punishment.

So ... what's the difference? That the shooters are cops?

 

[Oniw17]

Of course charges need to be filed. Cops are trained to know better. They have animal control, but he decided to be a cowboy and take it out like a good ol boy. Idiot. I certainly hope he lives with it the rest of his life.

I agree with this completely.

 

[s0meguy]

So ... what's the difference? That the shooters are cops?

In the case of the drunk driver it was because the driver was drunk and driving and knew it, but in the case of the officers that was just pure coincidence.