Oklahoma - Police kill 5 year-old child

[Tiassa]

it was a caustic sarcastic remark on my part.
i know how some people are when it comes to certain things.

It's all cool with me. I'm pretty sure I know what you were referring to; on the one hand, I wasn't going to give on that point, while to the other I didn't feel like arguing the point, either.

i agree. but what is this officer guilty of? lack of judgment or criminal intent?
that is the question that needs answered then we can go on to prescribe what needs to be done.

Well, three officers have been suspended. That's curious. We might see a bit of both. For instance, while a lack of judgment led to the shooting, it is entirely possible that the officers conducted themselves in the aftermath in a manner that violates statute. As I noted in my response to Pete, above:

In this context, I think the grandfather's accusation is significant: "They didn't tell us they were the ones who had been shooting or that they had shot him. They didn't admit a doggone thing."​

What, exactly, does that mean? And how accurate a summary is it? Have they committed something akin to leaving the scene of an accident? I suppose the question is how Oklahoma law treats such notions. Did they conspire to alter the story? Perhaps this elevates the charge from negligent homicide or manslaughter to murder?

At the very least, the story we've received thus far suggests some form of criminal negligence. The rest, though, is left for the investigation to determine. In the meantime--

City officials had no excuses for the tragedy.

“I apologize to the community for this event; it should never have happened,” City Manager Bob Wade said.

Mayor Gary Hayes said he wishes he could turn back time and change things. He said an apology was not enough, but he recognizes that something went terribly wrong.

“We as a community have to look at this and say, ‘OK. How can we make sure something like this doesn’t happen again?’” Hayes said. (Norman Transcript)

• • •​

Wade refused to identify the officer but said the person had been placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation.

"This is so bizarre it has to be fully investigated," he said. "We're pretty sure circumstantially that it is the bullet from the police officer's gun, but it might be a bullet from someone else."

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation spokeswoman Jessica Brown said a state investigation was under way, though it appeared the fatal shot had been fired by the officer. (CNN.com)​

--this is about all we can say about the status of the investigation.

hogtie with apples on the side

So ... caramel instead of tar?

 

[laughing weasel]

Proffessionals are supposed to rely on their training and are held to a higher standard of accountability especially in their field. A nurse is held to a higher standard at the scene of an accident when giving first aid. A lawyer when giving advice. Police get a lot of training on when and how to shoot including lines of fire. I was killing copper heads with a stick when I was 6. Shooting a snake is hard enough on the ground much less in a tree. They deserve a suspension without pay for a little while at least to encourage thinking next time.

 

[leopold]

. . . while a lack of judgment led to the shooting, it is entirely possible that the officers conducted themselves in the aftermath in a manner that violates statute.

this can mean they are concerned about legalities, you know, like not admitting anything in an automobile accident? yes, yes, yes, i know this is much worse than an automobile accident but the concepts involve could be identical.

What, exactly, does that mean? And how accurate a summary is it?

judging by some of the sources some of these posters consult it could be spot on or a blatant lie.

Have they committed something akin to leaving the scene of an accident? I suppose the question is how Oklahoma law treats such notions. Did they conspire to alter the story? Perhaps this elevates the charge from negligent homicide or manslaughter to murder?

i don't know about you but i wasn't there so anything i say would be speculation at best.

the questions i have are:
where was animal control?
did the officers even attempt to contact them?

 

[Tiassa]

The department's animal control office was and is vacant; they were and are advertising for the job. As to contacting county animal control or a local shelter, that question seems to be on the minds of at least a few Noble residents.

 

[Baron Max]

Proffessionals are supposed to rely on their training and are held to a higher standard of accountability especially in their field. ...

So, ....is that to say that you don't believe in equality under the law?

If the shooter had been a normal ol' citizen, the crime and punishment would and should be different?

Baron Max

 

[Tiassa]

So, ....is that to say that you don't believe in equality under the law?

If the shooter had been a normal ol' citizen, the crime and punishment would and should be different?

You seem to hold the standard that people with authority ought to behave according to a different standard. Consider the complaints you've made about the conduct of Sciforums' moderators.

When the stakes are greater, and include guns and the people who are authorized to kill people under circumstances that ordinary citizens can't, why do you suddenly abandon this position?

When one becomes a police officer, they accept that obligation under law. The law still applies equally inasmuch as it affords people the opportunity to step up and take certain responsibilities that delegate different behavioral obligations.

Your application of "equality under the law" is just a bit too general.

Think of a marriage, for instance. If your spouse has sex with another person, why is it any big deal? Perhaps because your spouse has promised fidelity? It's not that your spouse is any less human. The spouse has "every right" that unmarried people do to have sex with whomever he or she wants, but the spouse has also made an agreement not to.

Police agree to an obligation to protect and serve. That's the basis for granting them higher standing under the law than other people get.

Thus, while the charge might be the same, the punishment might be greater. It's part of the exchange the officer has agreed to. If these terms are unacceptable, one can certainly do something else for a living.

 

[Baron Max]

You seem to hold the standard that people with authority ought to behave according to a different standard.

You didn't even read my post, did you, Tiassa? Read it again, and you'll see that I said exactly the opposite of what you thought you read. Wanna' try again?

And with that in mind, I didn't even bother to read the remainder of your post ...assuming that it was something about the above, which was/is totally false and inaccurate.

Baron Max

 

[Tiassa]

You didn't even read my post, did you, Tiassa? Read it again, and you'll see that I said exactly the opposite of what you thought you read. Wanna' try again?

Too bad you didn't bother reading the rest of my post. A piece of advice: When sentences are placed in sequence to form paragaphs, they are relevant to one another.

Like I said in the same paragraph, in the next sentence after your citation: "Consider the complaints you've made about the conduct of Sciforums' moderators."

I was thinking of posts such as:

Hey, Tiassa, ....still attacking the person instead of the argument, huh? Ain't that against the rules around here? And ain't you one of them thar' moda-fuckin'-rators? (#1477695)

As I explained to you at the time, "You know, some people consider it a courtesy to adopt or honor another's customs .... In the meantime, stop complaining that people are bothering to speak your language."

It seems to me quite clear that you expect authority figures to conduct themselves differently from the masses. Unless, of course, something important is actually on the line, like life and death.

The lack of good faith about your posts does nothing to help your baseless accusations. It's not that I didn't read your post, Baron. Rather, I was calling you out on the hypocrisy of it.

 

[MetaKron]

The perpertrator, will have to live with his conscience and since it was apparently a mistake, that should theoretically be punishment enough.

We can't even be sure that he has a conscience. Will this one decide, perhaps, to be part of a campaign against the excruciatingly stupid use of firearms?

Bear in mind that if I had done something like that and that officer had been the arresting officer he would have had no problem with charging me with heinous crimes even if it was an accident. This officer should have to serve exactly the same penalty that I would.

 

[Tiassa]

Yesterday saw funeral services for Austin Haley, age 5:

Austin completed his summer wish list eight days before he died, including fishing with his grandpa, she said.

"His list was so simple and loving towards the people he cherished," Renee Haley said. (Tulsa World)​

This is about all I can reproduce here; the family is so devastated that, like many in the midst of tragedy, religion is the only thing keeping them functioning.

It is worth noting that, according to the Tulsa World article above, young Austin had arrived to fish at the pond only minutes before he was slain.

 

[Challenger78]

We can't even be sure that he has a conscience. Will this one decide, perhaps, to be part of a campaign against the excruciatingly stupid use of firearms?

Bear in mind that if I had done something like that and that officer had been the arresting officer he would have had no problem with charging me with heinous crimes even if it was an accident. This officer should have to serve exactly the same penalty that I would.

I don't think any jury would convict you if it were an accident. Neither would they convict an officer.

 

[milkweed]

What a moron!

He deserves prison time. Prison time that includes 24/7 reruns of Crocodile Hunter.

hmmm theres a snake in the tree.... what to do?? I know, SHOOT IT!!

Better police response-

Ma'am, I knows you believes snakes is the devil hisself, but iffen yoo awl just leaves the snakes alone hes gonna slither over yonder an leaves you good people in peace. Effen hes still hangen from yoo awls tree in the morn, me an billy-bob here ull come on down and see iffen we cant git that thar critter outta yoo awls tree.

How come yoo awls got a tree anyways? Dang things aint no good for nothin cept blowing around during one them thar tor Nados. yoo all autta cut that dang thing down, cquze mah language.
/end civilian police encounter

I mean any real okie woulda had their own gun to shoot the snake with and not bothered the police with such drivel.

 

[Tiassa]

Oklahoma bastards!

I don't think any jury would convict you if it were an accident.

And yet people are convicted of drunk driving when they honestly believed they were sober.

"I was told that they tried several ways to get the snake down, but it was still hissing at them and firmly lodged," Wade said. "What I was told is that the owner of the home either suggested or agreed that they should go ahead and shoot the snake, and then everything happened from there." (CNN.com, August 6, 2007)

• • •​

The officer, whose name has not been released by the Noble police department, was responding to a call sometime around 8 p.m. about a snake trapped in a birdhouse. The animal is believed to have been a “cotton mouth” or “water moccasin” — a poisonous water snake. It was then the officer allegedly unholstered his firearm and expelled two rounds.

“The officer decided shooting the snake would be the best option,” said OSBI spokesperson Jessica Brown. “They heard a splash in the pond from the first shot. The second shot struck the 5-year-old in the head.” (Norman Transcript, August 4, 2007)

• • •​

The note on the call on the emergency radio log for Friday evening reads, "brown diamond head snake hanging from neighbor's porch" ....

....The snake was nearly five feet long, said Jessica Brown, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation's public information officer.

Officials have not confirmed what kind of snake it was. The initial report from OSBI was of a water moccasin ....

.... Officials have not confirmed what kind of snake it was. The initial report from OSBI was of a water moccasin ....

.... An anonymous source at the Norman Animal Shelter said the snake was a black rat snake, according to unconfirmed published reports. Rat snakes are not venomous, but can be confused with the kinds that are ....

.... Noble Police officers are trained through the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training.

Police officers do not receive any animal control training at CLEET, said Steve Emmons, public information officer for CLEET.

Officers do receive training in the use of force, including firearms training, Emmons said.

"That would have been specific to identifying the target and being aware of the backdrop, what's behind the target," he said.

When it comes to whether to shoot an animal, Emmons said officers are told to refer to their own department's policy.

Noble's policy on the use of firearms says they may be used to destroy an animal that represents a threat to public safety.

"Except for exigent circumstances, supervisor approval is required," according to the policy. (Norman Transcript, August 10, 2007)​

A point worth mentioning, and then setting aside until it becomes relevant, is that as of Aug. 4, the OSBI statement was that "The officer decided shooting the snake would be the best option". The CNN report, updated on August 6, quotes Noble City Manager Bob Wade, "What I was told is that the owner of the home either suggested or agreed that they should go ahead and shoot the snake, and then everything happened from there." This appears to present a possible discrepancy. We'll see what comes.

But as the Norman Transcript points out, "There are at least 30 houses in the immediate area" of the shooting. OSBI spokesperson Jessica Brown estimated the distance between the snake call and the pond at 200-250 yards.

However, it has been suggested to me by a former prison official that it would be unusual for police to not have a shotgun on hand; in his years of working with police, he'd never heard of it. And he confirmed that a .40 caliber pistol wasn't a good choice of weapon for shooting at a snake dangling in the air.

So even though we're all in agreement that this was an accident, there are still some important considerations:

• Why use a .40 caliber pistol? Anyone with shooting experience is welcome to correct me on this point, but wouldn't a shotgun (A) give better results, and (B) present the safer option?

• Did the officers ignore their training?

• Is the appearance of a possible discrepancy significant?​

Of the first two, could either of these points have altered the outcome? Of the third, though, if the officers changed stories or, as grandfather Jack Tracy seems to imply in the CNN article, acted in a manner suggesting a degree of coverup, how sympathetic will a jury be?

Nobody set out to kill anyone, but just like a drunk driver might believe everything's okay, there is a point at which someone is criminally responsible for an accident.

As near as I can tell from the 2.5 mb .rtf file (bastards!) that contains the Oklahoma statutes regarding crime and punishment, there may be a case for Second Degree Manslaughter:

Every killing of one human being by the act, procurement or culpable negligence of another, which, under the provisions of this chapter, is not murder, nor manslaughter in the first degree, nor excusable nor justifiable homicide, is manslaughter in the second degree. (21-716)​

I did not find any definition of culpable negligence in the 618-page (bastards!) .rtf file.

Second-degree manslaughter is punishable by 2-4 years in the State Penitentiary, or up to 1 year in county jail, or a fine of up to $1,000, or a combination of fine and imprisonment. (21-722)

Section 21-731, however, explains "excusable homicide":

1. When committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act, by lawful means, with usual and ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent.​

Section 21-732 specifically exempts peace officers (police) under circumstances including,

3. The officer is in the performance of his legal duty or the execution of legal process and reasonably believes the use of the force is necessary to protect himself or others from the infliction of serious bodily harm ....​

It is possible that the death of Austin Tracy, age 5, will be excused under the law. The officers might plead usual and ordinary caution; that seems questionable from what we've seen so far. They might, also, plead necessary force. After all, even if it was a non-venomous black rat snake, it could have been mistaken for something dangerous.

Given the size of this document (bastards!), I beg forgiveness if I don't go digging after the wrongful death laws.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I have a special problem with cops so I have absolutely no patience with them or leniency toward them. Lately I've been living in the D.C. area, where cops use taxpayers for target practice, punching bags, and pylons in high-speed chases.

The cop in this case was abusing his authority. Every municipality has an entire department of people who are trained to deal with animal incidents. The cop had no business trying to solve the snake problem unless it was an anaconda and it was trying to kill somebody.

He also showed incredibly poor judgment. If you fire a gun into a tree and you miss your target, the bullet will keep traveling until it hits something--or someone--else.

At the very least this is involuntary manslaughter. If a black or Latino civilian had done this, in frelling Oklahoma, he'd be up for straight manslaughter. Heck, if shooting a snake without a license is a misdemeanor, he'd be up for Murder II.

He should be prosecuted, but regardless of the outcome of the trial in a cop-lovin' redneck state, he should be terminated from the force. And his superiors should be investigated for letting someone so poorly qualified out among the citizenry with a gun.

Who needs crooks when we've got cops like this running around?

 

[§outh§tar]

How about taking the police officer's child and shooting it in the head? An eye for an eye

 

[Baron Max]

I have a special problem with cops so I have absolutely no patience with them or leniency toward them. ....
Who needs crooks when we've got cops like this running around?

Interesting, Fraggle. You seem to be lumping all cops into the same mold. In most of your posts, you're almost exactly the other way around. What's the deal? Have you had a couple of bad experiences with cops, so now you're painting them all with the same brush?

Baron Max

 

[Cortex_Colossus]

• • •​

The officer, whose name has not been released by the Noble police department, was responding to a call sometime around 8 p.m. about a snake trapped in a birdhouse. The animal is believed to have been a “cotton mouth” or “water moccasin” — a poisonous water snake. It was then the officer allegedly unholstered his firearm and expelled two rounds.

“The officer decided shooting the snake would be the best option,” said OSBI spokesperson Jessica Brown. “They heard a splash in the pond from the first shot. The second shot struck the 5-year-old in the head.” (Norman Transcript, August 4, 2007)

Sounds like a typical case of fear and fragility on the police officer's part. The question that should be answered is; was he trigger happy? If yes, this would make it less of an accident. Guns and the mentally unstable are never a good mix. Pure stupidity could have been another reason for the tragic event. Of all times the police officer picked that instance to make a mistake, why?
The punishment should be given with options of payment and/or imprisonment. There should be tests to answer the question of "why?" if the family cares to know. A definite "cause" is the most effective method of alleviating the loss for the family. The atrocity is what happens when there is the lack of a cause.

When a punishment is too harsh, the family would only become guilty upon realizing this with time, and the pain for their child will grow because they would gain a sense of coldness and indifference to convince themselves that they are doing justice when it is understood as possibly not. The best way for most families is to become compassionate and accept the loss. To satisfy their curiosity they may choose to behave as scientists and conduct tests to determine the psychological state of the shooting officer.

Tragedy is a part of reality, and with anything it may be overcome. How does one overcome tragedy and does the denial of tragedy only lead to confusion and dissociation from life, where the balance between good and evil are as influential as that of life and death?

 

[S.A.M.]

How about taking the police officer's child and shooting it in the head? An eye for an eye

Wow! Talk about misguided justice.:bugeye:

 

[§outh§tar]

But it says an eye for an eye in the Bible and this is a Christian country!

I don't think I would find that too repulsive in the moments after I had discovered that this is what happened to my only son. In fact, I would probably come up with much better forms of justice.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I don't think I would find that [shooting the cop's own son in the head] too repulsive in the moments after I had discovered that this is what happened to my only son. In fact, I would probably come up with much better forms of justice.

If you caught the cop in the act of killing your son and were overcome with rage and grief (and the certainty that he will not be held accountable in a redneck state), I would forgive you for temporarily losing your connection to civilization and killing the sonofabitch. I promise. If that ever happens, try to get me on your jury.

But I will not condone you killing his son. That is not "the heat of passion." That is damn cold-blooded murder of an innocent. That is two wrongs trying to make a right. That is how we end up with places like the Middle East, where civilization has completely collapsed.

Remember that the fundamental rule that supports the continuity of civilization is: "You don't get to kill anybody, except in self defense when there's no other way. Not ever. Not for any reason."