Noah's ark

[Muslim]

You've all missed the point? it was not a GLOBAL FLOOD! this is a miss translation from Latin the region at the time was on the continent of Africa including the middle east, you know the cradle of life? started! anyway most of the people were confined to that region. so when the flood happened everyone taught it was a global flood. I mean take the tsunami if you were there and all the water was coming in you'd assume this is happening every-where due to the volume of water coming at you.

also there is archaeological evidence to support most of the middle east was flooded.

 

[Woody]

bottom line:
there is no scientific basis for the flood, and there is plenty of scientific evidence that there was no such event. you can go on and on with the if this, if that, maybe this, maybe that, but where is the evidence that suggests that this event did happen (not just could happen, but did)?

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

How about this "evidence" discovered recently from the Black Sea Project:

THE EXPEDITION ALSO spotted planks, beams, tree branches and chunks of wood untouched by worms or mollusks, a strong indication that the oxygen-free waters of the Black Sea’s 7,000-foot-deep abyss may shelter intact shipwrecks dating back to the dawn of seafaring.
“It is beyond our wildest imagination,” explorer Robert D. Ballard, leader of the expedition, said yesterday. “Wood is existing much shallower than we thought. When we do go deep, it can only get better.”
The discovery is the latest from the Black Sea project to look for ancient shipwrecks and perhaps evidence of a great flood. Late last year, the team discovered the outlines of an ancient coast 550 feet below the current waterline, the first visual evidence that a flood had occurred in the region eons ago.

How do you explain shipwrecks in a shoreline that is 550 feet in depth below the current one on the Black Sea?

To find evidence, you have to be looking for it in the right place. Who's looking for the evidence in the evolution community?

Drum Roll Please:

Perhaps this will answer S/G's question about a lack of flood evidence in the ocean floor:

Archaeologists have long been interested in the Black Sea, because its waters are anoxic – lacking in oxygen – below a depth of 500 feet. In theory, organic material that shipworms quickly gobble elsewhere would lie untouched in the Black Sea’s sterile depths. Later this month Ballard plans the first-ever exploration of the Black Sea floor.

Of course this doesn't prove Noah's ark ever existed, but it does test the premise of a flood during the time of humanity. The science community is apparantly closed-minded about it because it has religious overtones. Surely they will come up with their own sanitized version of whatever flood evidence is discovered, that helps them sleep better at night.

There is a debate on the black sea deluge theory. But nobody denies that the Black Sea "flooded" contemporanous with man.

Black Sea today (light blue) and in 5600 BCE according to Ryan's and Pitman's theories

I got this and other information from this link:

Noah

Fascinating. Noah's flood is claimed to happen about 7,500 years ago, and here's what's been found:

In a series of expeditions, a team of marine archeologists led by Robert Ballard identified what appeared to be ancient shorelines, freshwater snail shells, drowned river valleys, tool-worked timbers, and man-made structures in roughly 300 feet (100 m) of water off the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey. Radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusk remains indicated an age of about 7,000 years.

According to a report in New Scientist magazine (May 4, 2002, p. 13), the researchers found an underwater delta south of the Bosporus. There was evidence for a strong flow of fresh water out of the Black Sea in the 8th millennium BCE.

The review of sediments in the Black Sea in 2004 by a pan-European project (Assemblage - Noah Project) confirmed the conclusion of Pitman/Ryan. Further, calculations made by Mark Siddall predicted an underwater canyon that was actually found.

The hypothesis remains an active subject of debate among archaeologists.

There is also similar evidence in the Persian Gulf.

Scientists dispute the arc flood with a theory that the Mediterranean Sea rose and flooded the Black Sea which was then a freshwater body.

They counter claim:

Then, about 5600 BC, as sea levels rose, Ryan and Pitman suggest, the rising Mediterranean finally spilled over a rocky sill at the Bosphorus.

Well somebody tell me what caused the Mediterreanen sea to rise -- was it a flood? What about the Caspian Sea?

The Caspian Sea is a landlocked endorheic sea between Asia and Europe (European Russia). It is the world's largest inland body of water. It has a surface area of 371,000 km² (143,000 sq. mi.), and a maximum depth of about 980m (3200 ft). Thus it has characteristics common to both seas and lakes. It is often listed as the world's largest lake, though it is not a freshwater one. It has a salinity of approximately 1.2%, about a third the salinity of sea water.

Those scientists appear to be in error concerning the Black Sea. The Caspian Sea, which is even further inland is saline and landlocked.

The Caspian became landlocked about 5.5 million years ago. The level of the Caspian has fallen and risen, often rapidly, many times over the centuries. Some Russian historians claim that a medieval rising of the Caspian caused the coastal towns of Khazaria, such as Atil, to flood. In 2004, the water level is -28 metres, or 28 metres/92 feet below sea level.

Somebody tell me how much the earth would have to flood in order to create the Caspian. Why is the salinity only 1/3 that of the ocean? Something doesn't fit. Any scientists around here?

 

[Muslim]

woody well done. Excellent post! which has irrefutable evidence.

 

[cato]

http://www.caspianenvironment.org/newsite/Caspian-Background.htm

 

[SnakeLord]

How do you explain shipwrecks

Ships invariably get destroyed and sink every now and then. Such is life.. yes, even unsinkable ships like the Titanic. Ancient poorly built ships would be even more likely to sink.

a shoreline that is 550 feet in depth below the current one on the Black Sea?

Firstly let me just say I would be somewhat more impressed if the story featured on more well known and respected website. Indeed I start to question validity of stories when they contain spelling errors in the first sentence.

I would expect to see the evidence gathered from the claimed expedition - be that with actual relics or through photography. There are probably a million poorly designed sites that make claims that are indeed fallacious.

Having said all that, I doubt one person here will decline from stating that floods do happen and have happened. It is a leap of extreme proportions to go from a sunken ship to a boat piloted by 8 people that had in excess of 3 million animals on board while every other breathing creature on the planet got whacked.

While it is always of historical interest to find sunken ships, ancient ruins, even a roman coin in your back garden.. it does not in any way attest to a global flood survived by a 600 year old sinless man that had several million pets. K?

Of course this doesn't prove Noah's ark ever existed, but it does test the premise of a flood during the time of humanity.

Premise of a flood? Dude.. there's been many floods. Hell, there's floods every year in England. Of course you were completely correct with the first part of your sentence.

The science community is apparantly closed-minded about it because it has religious overtones.

Don't be silly. Science just doesn't say there was a 600 year old man with 3 million animals and be done with it. Science finds the 'real' answers, regardless to how nice or horrible they sound.

Radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusk remains indicated an age of about 7,000 years.

Since when did you religious fundies start believing carbon dating was accurate? It's quite bizarre, but if this was a discussion refuting something religious, (say the shroud of turin), you'd be the very first person telling us all how unworthy carbon dating is.

Btw, I'm sure many freshwater animals died 7,500 years ago.. just as they continue to do today.

Scientists dispute the arc flood with a theory that the Mediterranean Sea rose and flooded the Black Sea which was then a freshwater body.

There you go then. Why do you instantly dismiss what science has to say on the matter?

Somebody tell me how much the earth would have to flood in order to create the Caspian. Why is the salinity only 1/3 that of the ocean? Something doesn't fit. Any scientists around here?

Why you asking for scientists here when you've already quoted some things written by scientists? If their explanation is not good enough for you, why would ours be?

Let me just end by reaffirming that floods do and have happened. How do you get from a flood, (which is a regular occurrence), to a 600 year old man with 3 million animals?

 

[Spectrum]

Snakelord, where do you get '3 million animals' from?? Species is different to a tpe of animals. Gathering a male and female spider is not the same as gathering a male and female of every type of spider!

 

[SnakeLord]

Snakelord, where do you get '3 million animals' from?? Species is different to a tpe of animals.

This is a debate in and of itself, but it stands that the majority of people of such fundamentalist nature to believe Noah is true would instantly and outright deny 'evolution'. As such, any species that is alive today was alive then - and as such needed to be on the ark to be saved from extinction.

If you're personally cool with evolution, and willing to just dampen the biblical text then fine.. there was a dude with a rowboat that saved a pet goat when the local river went a little higher than normal. I'm good with that too.

From a biblical perspective, god says:

"of every clean animal you must take seven pairs... of every unclean animal you must take two..."

This text clearly states that two/seven of every animal and species of animal must be taken on the ark. It does not imply that Noah is instructed to take 2 spiders and feel happy.

 

[Spectrum]

Noah...would instantly and outright deny 'evolution'. As such, any species that is alive today was alive then - and as such needed to be on the ark to be saved from extinction.

Perhaps creation and evolution are both true! God could have created the animals and time created the species', hence Darwin's 'Origin Of The Species' (as I was told by a wise man)!

 

[Woody]

Firstly let me just say I would be somewhat more impressed if the story featured on more well known and respected website. Indeed I start to question validity of stories when they contain spelling errors in the first sentence.

So what do you think of William Ryan and Walter Pitman, geologists from Columbia University, who in 1998 published evidence that a massive flood through the Bosporus occurred about 5600 BCE? Do you think they have a religious agenda?

While it is always of historical interest to find sunken ships, ancient ruins, even a roman coin in your back garden.. it does not in any way attest to a global flood survived by a 600 year old sinless man that had several million pets. K?

So what do you think of the Black Sea supposedly being freshwater (before the flood), according evolutionists, and then became a saltwater body -- disproving a large-scale flood? The Caspian Sea, which is further inland, is saline, and has seals living in it. Does this seem consistent to you?

Premise of a flood? Dude.. there's been many floods. Hell, there's floods every year in England. Of course you were completely correct with the first part of your sentence.

We're speaking of continental and/or intercontinental flooding.

Since when did you religious fundies start believing carbon dating was accurate? It's quite bizarre, but if this was a discussion refuting something religious

OK then, would you prefer I use a bible instead of science? I have no problem with the theory behind scientific dating methods -- but I might have a disagreement on some of the assumptions (inputs) being used. Imperfect inputs in a perfect model yield imperfect results.

Btw, I'm sure many freshwater animals died 7,500 years ago.. just as they continue to do today

I almost completely agree -- it was a non-impact event during a worldwide flood. Fresh water species survived.

There you go then. Why do you instantly dismiss what science has to say on the matter?

Because they can not agree -- some say it (the Black Sea) was saline, and others say it was freshwater. Those that don't accept Noah's flood prefer the freshwater version.

Why you asking for scientists here when you've already quoted some things written by scientists? If their explanation is not good enough for you, why would ours be

?

Probably best to read about it on my own.

 

[Woody]

http://www.caspianenvironment.org/newsite/Caspian-Background.htm

Thanks for the link on the Caspian. It says the Caspian Sea was at one time connected to both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. It first disconnected from the Pacific, then the atlantic. The seal species there is quite unique, as well as other uniques life forms.

 

[ghost7584]

I just read a bit of the chapter on Noah's ark. I now have a question for the rigid believers amongst us.

I saw no mention of plants. Just creatures of flesh. How do you suppose plants survived a global flood.

God and His angels (possibly the UFO aliens) could have easily replanted the Earth with whatever plants they wanted to.
Called the Watchers and the Holy Ones in Daniel; God's angels seem to be like the caretakers of the planet.

 

[Spectrum]

Seeds float do they not? They could have floated until they were deposited on soil...and then grew.

 

[James R]

I have some questions about Noah's flood:

1. Why is there no layering of sediments across the world in every cliff, oil wellm coal mine etc., showing conglomerates, sand, siltstones, mudstones and claystones?
2. If all fossilisation is due to animals being killed in the flood:
(a) why does the fossil record include floating sea creatures such as ammonites and nautiloids, which would not die in a flood?
(b) Why are many fossils only found in specific geographic areas, and in certain well-defined layers? Wouldn't they all have been mixed up, especially in the layering?
3. If the layering of sediments was caused during the flood, then the thick layers of salt which are seen must have been dissolved in the waters during the flood. These salt layers should be obvious in the top layers of the land and ocean floor today. But the ocean floor is not covered by salt. Why not?
4. Why aren't the salt layers uniform across the world? In Australia, salt layers are much rarer in the rocks than in the UK, for example.
5. A world-wide flood which covered all the mountains would require 4.4 billion cubic kilometres of water to be added to the oceans. Where did the water come from? If it was rain, then during the rain the atmosphere would have had to have been 99.9% water vapour, which would be unbreathable. The density of the atmosphere would have been 840 times greater than what it is now, so any animals with lungs would have died (including those on the ark).
6. Were the flood waters fresh water? If so, the oceans would have been diluted and most salt-water species would have died.
7. How did Noah build such a large ark? How many helpers did he have? The ark would be 150 metres long, 25 wide and 15 high, with three decks.
8. How did Noah cope with feeding all the animals? For example, elephants need 300 kilograms of greenery per day. Where was the food kept? And how was it gathered?
9. How did Noah get the large animals such as hippos and elephants into the ark? Were there dinosaurs, too?
10. What did Noah do with the 10000 different species of termites he had on his wooden ark?
11. How could the ark, made entirely of gopher wood, be sea-worthy, considering that the other largest wooden ship ever built (at 110 metres long) was unstable and had to be continuously pumped out? Who did the pumping on Noah's ark?
12. How was the ark made strong enough to carry all the weight of all the creatures on board?
13. Was there enough space on the ark for all the animals? Assume 30 percent of the volume would have been taken up by the structural supports, decking etc. How much space did each species have?
14. How did Noah preserve fresh Eucalyptus leaves for the Koalas, for 40 days and nights? How did the Koalas get to the ark from Australia?
15. There are many tree-dwelling animals which cannot be kept in cages, but need trees. How did Noah collect and store the trees?
16. How did Noah keep the Platypuses and the Otters, which require free-flowing water?
17. Some animals die if not kept at a cold temperature? What refrigeration was available on the ark?
18. Limestone would have been washed into the sea, along with huge amounts of mud and clay. How did the sea creatures survive? How did coral reefs survive?
19. How is the genetic diversity of species alive today explained, in light of the flood which occurred only 6000 years ago? There doesn't seem to have been time for such diversity to develop.
20. Many insects cannot reproduce unless they are part of a colony. Many birds will not reproduce unless they are part of a flock. How were numbers repopulated after the flood, with only two of each animal?
21. The great majority of plants and their seeds will die in salt water. How did they survive?
22. Many plants need insects to polinate them. How did they survive after the flood?
23. How did Noah get the ark loaded in one 24 hour period?
24. How did the Dodo, a flightless bird, reach the ark? Did it swim across the Indian ocean?
25. Which of the people on the ark carried all the sexually-transmitted diseases which otherwise would have died out in the flood?
26. What did Noah do about the hermaphrodites and other organisms which produce asexually, or which do not have a definite sex?
27. How were the carnivores which only feed on fresh meat fed on the ark? What about the animals which only eat living animals?
28. Did Noah have a huge supply of bamboo for the pandas?
29. How did Noah preserve all the parasites which live only on certain animals?
30. Kuru is a disease from the New Guinea highlands, which only cannibals can get by eating a person's brains. Which of Noah's family ate somebody's brains to ensure the survival of that disease?
31. Who had the feeding duties on the ark? How did they supply food to all the animals? How many animals per minute could they feed?
32. How did the animals which require exercise get it on the ark?
33. Who cleaned up the waste from all the animals? How big a job was this?
34. How did the animals below decks breathe?
35. When the ark landed on Mt Ararat, how did the tropical animals survive the cold?
36. What did the animals eat after leaving the ark?

I hope you can help me, Woody.

 

[Hapsburg]

The fresh rain water would dilute the salinity, but that doesn't matter.

Yes, it would. The oceans we be desalinated to the point that most, if not all, seafaring animals would die. Sharks, other oceanic fishes, whales, jellyfish, etc. All would become extinct. They wouldn't be able to adapt fast enough. But, wait...if I remember correctly, sharks and whales and marlins and sea creatures of all sorts still exist.
Any thing you say to try to prove your ridiculous fairy tale will be shot down.

 

[Mythbuster]

Woody, i hope you answer James R questions ! We want your answers NOW !

 

[SnakeLord]

Perhaps creation and evolution are both true! God could have created the animals and time created the species

Certainly, but that doesn't generally stop the fundie that outright denies any possibility that evolution can happen.

If we take your stance as opposed to the typical religious stance, we'd also have to question whether the mass diversity of animals that we see today could have arisen from a mere handful 6,000 years ago. There's several thousand species of spider.. could they all have come from 2 spiders in such a short amount of time?

So what do you think of William Ryan and Walter Pitman, geologists from Columbia University, who in 1998 published evidence that a massive flood through the Bosporus occurred about 5600 BCE? Do you think they have a religious agenda?

I wouldn't know, I don't know much about them. This thread is talking about a global flood.. There is much evidence out there that floods have occurred, (both big and small), but unless they're pushing for a global flood theory and a man on a boat with lots of animals, (in which case they most certainly are pushing a religious agenda), then I personally fail to see it's worth here.

Once again: I am in no way denying that floods do and have occurred.

So what do you think of the Black Sea supposedly being freshwater (before the flood), according evolutionists, and then became a saltwater body?

Again, I have no qualms with floods. They do happen. If you want, feel free to list every flood in the history of this planet, but it is pointless with concerns to the claim of a global flood that wiped out everything except 8 people and a bunch of animals that were safely tucked away on a rickety old barge.

We're speaking of continental and/or intercontinental flooding.

No, we were talking about a global flood. A flood that covered everything upto the highest mountains.

OK then, would you prefer I use a bible instead of science?

No, but you generally do. However, that's not what I was getting at and you know it.

but I might have a disagreement on some of the assumptions (inputs) being used. Imperfect inputs in a perfect model yield imperfect results.

So in short you're saying that if carbon dating goes against religious beliefs you'll disagree with carbon dating, but if it agrees with it, you'll agree?

it was a non-impact event during a worldwide flood.

Now we just await evidence of a global flood.

Because they can not agree -- some say it (the Black Sea) was saline, and others say it was freshwater.

So then, by your own statement here, you also have to disagree with everyone else - because they are disagreeing with someone else, (including Pitman and Ryan).

 

[cato]

14. How did Noah preserve fresh Eucalyptus leaves for the Koalas, for 40 days and nights?

addition to this one, it rained for 40 days, but they did not hit land for 10 months, and it was another 40 days before they left the arc (TNIV)

 

[Woody]

I have some questions about Noah's flood:

1. Why is there no layering of sediments across the world in every cliff, oil wellm coal mine etc., showing conglomerates, sand, siltstones, mudstones and claystones?

This has already been covered in previous posts.

2. If all fossilisation is due to animals being killed in the flood:
(a) why does the fossil record include floating sea creatures such as ammonites and nautiloids, which would not die in a flood?
(b) Why are many fossils only found in specific geographic areas, and in certain well-defined layers? Wouldn't they all have been mixed up, especially in the layering?

All fossilization is not due to the flood.

3. If the layering of sediments was caused during the flood, then the thick layers of salt which are seen must have been dissolved in the waters during the flood. These salt layers should be obvious in the top layers of the land and ocean floor today. But the ocean floor is not covered by salt. Why not?

Not sure what you are asking for. Salt in the ocean floor would dissolve.


4. Why aren't the salt layers uniform across the world? In Australia, salt layers are much rarer in the rocks than in the UK, for example.

5. A world-wide flood which covered all the mountains would require 4.4 billion cubic kilometres of water to be added to the oceans. Where did the water come from? If it was rain, then during the rain the atmosphere would have had to have been 99.9% water vapour, which would be unbreathable. The density of the atmosphere would have been 840 times greater than what it is now, so any animals with lungs would have died (including those on the ark).

The fountains of the deep. I guess you ignored that post.

6. Were the flood waters fresh water? If so, the oceans would have been diluted and most salt-water species would have died.

They came from inside the earth -- the same place where the salt and other minerals originally came from that salinated the ocean.

7. How did Noah build such a large ark? How many helpers did he have? The ark would be 150 metres long, 25 wide and 15 high, with three decks.

I don't know the prevailing wage for hired help back then.

8. How did Noah cope with feeding all the animals? For example, elephants need 300 kilograms of greenery per day. Where was the food kept? And how was it gathered?

9. How did Noah get the large animals such as hippos and elephants into the ark? Were there dinosaurs, too?

no dinosaurs. some suggest the flood ended the dinosaurs, but I don't agree.

10. What did Noah do with the 10000 different species of termites he had on his wooden ark?

After reading up on the insects, I am inclined to think he didn't bring them or any other animals that would cause problems in the food supplies.

You will say that disproves the ark theory -- but I have a question for you: How did the Krakota volcano become repopulated with insects and other small land creatures after its explosive eruption? Surely nothing could have survived that -- the extreme heat and toxic gasses.

11. How could the ark, made entirely of gopher wood, be sea-worthy, considering that the other largest wooden ship ever built (at 110 metres long) was unstable and had to be continuously pumped out? Who did the pumping on Noah's ark?
12. How was the ark made strong enough to carry all the weight of all the creatures on board?
13. Was there enough space on the ark for all the animals? Assume 30 percent of the volume would have been taken up by the structural supports, decking etc. How much space did each species have?
14. How did Noah preserve fresh Eucalyptus leaves for the Koalas, for 40 days and nights? How did the Koalas get to the ark from Australia?
15. There are many tree-dwelling animals which cannot be kept in cages, but need trees. How did Noah collect and store the trees?
16. How did Noah keep the Platypuses and the Otters, which require free-flowing water?
17. Some animals die if not kept at a cold temperature? What refrigeration was available on the ark?
18. Limestone would have been washed into the sea, along with huge amounts of mud and clay. How did the sea creatures survive? How did coral reefs survive?
19. How is the genetic diversity of species alive today explained, in light of the flood which occurred only 6000 years ago? There doesn't seem to have been time for such diversity to develop.
20. Many insects cannot reproduce unless they are part of a colony. Many birds will not reproduce unless they are part of a flock. How were numbers repopulated after the flood, with only two of each animal?
21. The great majority of plants and their seeds will die in salt water. How did they survive?
22. Many plants need insects to polinate them. How did they survive after the flood?
23. How did Noah get the ark loaded in one 24 hour period?
24. How did the Dodo, a flightless bird, reach the ark? Did it swim across the Indian ocean?
25. Which of the people on the ark carried all the sexually-transmitted diseases which otherwise would have died out in the flood?
26. What did Noah do about the hermaphrodites and other organisms which produce asexually, or which do not have a definite sex?
27. How were the carnivores which only feed on fresh meat fed on the ark? What about the animals which only eat living animals?
28. Did Noah have a huge supply of bamboo for the pandas?
29. How did Noah preserve all the parasites which live only on certain animals?
30. Kuru is a disease from the New Guinea highlands, which only cannibals can get by eating a person's brains. Which of Noah's family ate somebody's brains to ensure the survival of that disease?
31. Who had the feeding duties on the ark? How did they supply food to all the animals? How many animals per minute could they feed?
32. How did the animals which require exercise get it on the ark?
33. Who cleaned up the waste from all the animals? How big a job was this?
34. How did the animals below decks breathe?
35. When the ark landed on Mt Ararat, how did the tropical animals survive the cold?
36. What did the animals eat after leaving the ark?

I hope you can help me, Woody.

yeah lots of sticky details.

I have some questions for you? What is the manmade structure that is on the northeast face of mount ararat at about 14,000 feet in elevation, partially buried in a glacier. It has been sited on various air flights when the weather is right. Also satellite photos.

Why are the CIA satellite photographs of Mt. Ararat classified information?

How difficult would it be to excavate an archaelogical find at this location given the terrain, the weather, the unstable political climate, and the religion clashes over a find that would be "owned" by 3 religions?

 

[SkinWalker]

So what do you think of William Ryan and Walter Pitman[/URL], geologists from Columbia University, who in 1998 published evidence that a massive flood through the Bosporus occurred about 5600 BCE? Do you think they have a religious agenda?

Here's what I think.

So what do you think of the Black Sea supposedly being freshwater (before the flood), according evolutionists, and then became a saltwater body -- disproving a large-scale flood?

This is according to geologists. Saying that it is "according [to] evolutionists" is implying that they had a conclusion and then sought data to support it. Only religious nutters like creationists work in this manner.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

So in short you're saying that if carbon dating goes against religious beliefs you'll disagree with carbon dating, but if it agrees with it, you'll agree?

No, in short I'm saying anyone can cook the books whether it's an evolutionist wanting to prove his point, buying all the time he can get, or a creationist trying to preserve the 7 day 24 hour creation "account," which I don't agree with.

I ask you the same question as JamesR -- what's the object spotted on Mt. Ararat? Maybe its not the ark but what is it?