No God???

JOHANNsebastianBACH,

you christians never actually have answers to these questions. all you do is answer in the form of another question.
I assume you know what rhetoric questions are... do you know what the word "rhetoric" means? Hopefully you do, cause we do that pretty often...:eek:

why do you christians constantly try to debate topics using the bible which your opposition doesent believe exists.
Because you atheists try to use it against us in the first place, so we use it to prove that you are wrong...

please christians, dont answer this question in the form of an other question or even using quotes from the bible. you will look like a jackass or even worse a SHEEP.
Read above...
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
BloodSuckingGerbile,


What a question... of course not!!:bugeye:

Well, Why, then, did God allow it to happen, if he's so all-knowing and if he so undoubtedly exists and if all he represents is love?
 
BloodSuckingGerbile,

Well, Why, then, did God allow it to happen, if he's so all-knowing and if he so undoubtedly exists and if all he represents is love?
Because the one that did it had a free will, which could not be broken.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
Free will is a load of crap, no one has ultimate free will. Cause and effect baby. Too late to go into this though

True, but the phrase "man has free will" is inherently constrained by the "scope of effect" of the man (or woo-man).
 
Frencheneesz,

Why doesn't God take away free will if it causes so much trouble.
He created us that way. It is a part of ourselves. If He would take it away, we would probably become dust again, or something like that...:bugeye::eek:
 
BloodSuckingGerbile,

But... God is all knowing and he can do anything, isn't that right?
Yes. But He won't brake your free will and control you in any way. You have total control of yourself.
 
MooseKnuckle,

Free will is a load of crap, no one has ultimate free will. Cause and effect baby. Too late to go into this though
You can make the choices on how you will react to a situation. Mature people will have a more forgiving and accepting attitude, while immature people will whine and not accept much the situation. Mature people can also work some way out of the problems while immature people will probably get stuck... oh well... I guess I'm kinda immature... :p

Or maybe I'm just too persistent and when I get a problem I don't relax until it is solved...:cool:
 
TruthSeeker-

Oh i hear you on that, i know what you mean, but you are merely scraping the surface to what it means to have free will. My choices seem free but are they really free? thats the question to look into.
 
Ok, about to let the cat out of the bag for the self deceived, if someone does not like what they hear, too bad, reality is reality. Thing is, we can argue forever on the issue of a supreme being, but the issue of free will is not something to be argued, since the realm of science has nailed it down. I think the only way one can argue about this would be the result not of a opposing opinion, but of a gross misunderstanding of the issue altogether.

Everyone is a victim not of genes, but of genes and enviornment together; knobs and turnings. Of course, you can argue with the preposition that all we are is knobs and turnings, genes and enviornment. You can insist that there's something......something more. But if you try to visualze the form this something would take, or articulate it clearly, you'll find the task impossible, for any force that in not in the genes or the enviornment is outside of physical reality as we perceive it.

Darwin sheads some light on this topic...... Darwin saw how these forces have their combined effect: by determining a person's physical "organization" which in turn determines thought and feeling and behavior. Darwin makes a point that even today goes ungrasped: ALL influences on human behavior, enviornmental as well as hereditary, are mediated biologically. Whatever combination of things has given your brain the exact physical organization it has at this moment( including your genes, your early enviornment, and your assimilation of the first half of this sentence), that physical organization is what determines how you will respond to the second half of this sentence.

As for why , if all behavior is determined, we "feel" as if we're making free choices, Darwin had a modern explanation....: our concious mind isnt privy to all the motivating forces. "The general delusion about free will is obvious- because man has power of action, and he can seldom analyze his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, and therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none."

Some of our motives are hidden from us not incidentally but by design, so that we can credibly act as if they aren't what they are; that, more generally, the "delusion about free will" may be an adaption. Still he got the basic idea: free will is an illusion, brought to us by evolution. All the things commonly blamed or praised for- are the result not of choices made by some immaterial "I" but of physical necessity.

A response to dehumanizing human behavior is what Darwin thought- complete surrender. Give up on free will; no one really deserves blame or credit for anything; we are all slaves of biology. "we must view a wicked man, like a sickly one, it would be more proper to pity than to hate and be disgusted." The hatred and revulsion that send people to jail- and in other contexts lead to arguements, fights, and wars- are without intellectual foundation. Of course they may have a PRACTICAL foundation. Indeed thats the problem: blame and punishment are as practically necessary as they are intellectually vacuous.

So the funny thing is that us "scientifically minded" people are more understanding and thus compassionate to others due to understanding the extends to which they acted. Theists will many times want to look down upon people as if they were somehow removed from the influences that make humans...... humans. Truth is; we are all of a robotic nature and by understanding this concept we can progress instead of blaming people for acts that were ultimately out of their control. This doesnt mean that punishment isnt a good deterant, because it is necessary to hold society together.

Free will= delusion.
People= robots.
 
Here is my own way to make this "shorter and sweeter"

No one is responsible for their brain makeup when they were first born. So one's first actions are the result of their brain dictating one's responses to environmental stimuli. The enviornmental information is taken in and the brain will make some new connections in its neural makeup as a result..... the next behavior is the result of the new combination of biological and enviornmental makeup. So if we start with something no one had a say in (one's genetic composition) then how are responsible for actions that result of "choices" made by your brain. We are never truely in control to the extend we want to think. We have begun to experience a spiral of actions that are a result of choices made when we had no control.
 
Using only science I believe that we will find no free will the way you define it. The effects of our will (like everything else) may be probabilistic, but not deterministic. I'd just designate whatever goes on in my brain as my 'free will'. It is preprogrammed to function a certain way, but is completely unpredictable.
 
I'd just designate whatever goes on in my brain as my 'free will'

Thats as much as we can give ourselves. Thats the extent of our "free will" Kind of dehumanizing but hey thats life.
 
MooseKnuckle,

Oh i hear you on that, i know what you mean, but you are merely scraping the surface to what it means to have free will. My choices seem free but are they really free? thats the question to look into.
Do you deny you have free will?

No one is responsible for their brain makeup when they were first born. So one's first actions are the result of their brain dictating one's responses to environmental stimuli. The enviornmental information is taken in and the brain will make some new connections in its neural makeup as a result..... the next behavior is the result of the new combination of biological and enviornmental makeup. So if we start with something no one had a say in (one's genetic composition) then how are responsible for actions that result of "choices" made by your brain. We are never truely in control to the extend we want to think. We have begun to experience a spiral of actions that are a result of choices made when we had no control
That is an interesting theory.... :p
 
Persol,

Using only science I believe that we will find no free will the way you define it. The effects of our will (like everything else) may be probabilistic, but not deterministic. I'd just designate whatever goes on in my brain as my 'free will'. It is preprogrammed to function a certain way, but is completely unpredictable.
Maybe it is not that unpredictable. Like, after you know someone for a while, you might know pretty well how that person will react in a given situation.
 
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