News From Gaza

Status
Not open for further replies.
hypewaders said:
Mr. Spock: "it is a mockery to the victims."

How is it a mockery to the victims to enumerate their deaths?
Click to expand...

enumerate? by comparing jewish casualties to non jews only since the intifada, you insult their memory, unless they are not victims-which explains your view.
"what should be discussed is why they died."

Forced ethnic separatism.
Click to expand...

that to. jews have expelled themselves from gaza, yet they are still persecuted by the palestinians.

"jews died for being jews. palestinians died during military operations to defend the jews."

That's a very interesting construct. Are you suggesting that Jews have a greater justification for killing, and for killing in disproportionate numbers in this conflict, than non-Jews have?
Click to expand...

im saying what is important is the reason. you are the one talking about numbers-perhaps the problem is your view then.
 
"by comparing jewish casualties to non jews only since the intifada, you insult their memory"

How does this insult their memory?
Are you suggesting a different proportionality before a particular uprising?
(please note I added earlier data for you in post 578)

"unless they are not victims-which explains your view."

It does? I have not denied the victimhood of Jewish casualties. If I am not succeeding in explaining my view here, would you please share specifically what you consider your own special knowledge of it?

"jews have expelled themselves from gaza, yet they are still persecuted by the palestinians."

When you say "the Palestinians", do you mean all Palestinians? If you mean Gazans, what Jews remain in their power to persecute? Do you mean they are "persecuting" the IDF and Mossad?

"what is important is the reason."

Do you mean to suggest that Jews have greater justification for killing non-Jews in Gaza than the converse?
 
hypewaders said:
"by comparing jewish casualties to non jews only since the intifada, you insult their memory"

How does this insult their memory?
Are you suggesting a different proportionality before a particular uprising?
(please note I added earlier data for you in post 578)
Click to expand...

you wanna tell me you didnt tried to show the palestinians have more casualties then the israelis? i think that making this a meter statistic, just deprive the casualties of their humanity. i see no other option. i really think it is silly at best.

"unless they are not victims-which explains your view."

It does? I have not denied the victimhood of Jewish casualties. If I am not succeeding in explaining my view here, would you please share specifically what you consider your own special knowledge of it?
Click to expand...

yu say you dont, yet you have no problem to compare body counts. i find it contradicting.
"jews have expelled themselves from gaza, yet they are still persecuted by the palestinians."

When you say "the Palestinians", do you mean all Palestinians? If you mean Gazans, what Jews remain in their power to persecute? Do you mean they are "persecuting" the IDF and Mossad?
Click to expand...
i mean they persecute us by constantly attacking us with rockets. after we left.

"what is important is the reason."

Do you mean to suggest that Jews have greater justification for killing non-Jews in Gaza than the converse?
Click to expand...

i dont think being a jew gives you any justification for anything. that is supremacy, just like blaming jews for everything the palestinians are doing. i do believe that what counts are the motives for someone actions. if you kill someone for hes religion, hes beliefs, if you look at him as parasite that stole your land, as a colonialist from europe you have a right to kill, then you are the aggressor that needs to be stopped, and i as the parasitic colonialist, have the right to protect myself against your aggressive aspiration.
 
Mr.Spock: "you wanna tell me you didnt tried to show the palestinians have more casualties then the israelis?"

They do, and I did show that. Anyone respectful of the Shoah knows that numbers do confer a special meaning in describing how many people have perished. The continual and disproportionate deaths of Palestinians have growing meaning to the world.

"making this a meter statistic, just deprive the casualties of their humanity."

How? I have not denied the victimhood of Jewish casualties.

"yet you have no problem to compare body counts. i find it contradicting."

How, specifically?

"[Palestinian militants] persecute us by constantly attacking us with rockets."

You're stretching the term a bit beyond historical connotation. Palestinian rockets are a deplorable example of lashing-out by a minority within Gaza that have no power to persecute Jews in the normal sense of the term, such as we in the West have learned from the deplorable state crimes against Jewish people through history.

"i dont think being a jew gives you any justification for anything."

In terms of as acts of violence, I heartily agree with you. But you seem to be asserting that being militarily on top does. Did the Jews who violently resisted state persecution in even darker eras deserve to be killed along with their families?

"what counts are the motives for someone actions."

Do you maintain that Jewish motives for killing Palestinians do not involve consideration of ethnicity? Do you believe that provoking desperate Palestinian retaliation, through disproportionate casualties and suffering is healthy for the security of Jews in the Mideast?

"if you kill someone for hes religion, hes beliefs, if you look at him as parasite that stole your land, as a colonialist from europe you have a right to kill, then you are the aggressor that needs to be stopped"

Through disproportionate civilian attrition? Do you really think such a strategy can work- Total War vs. resistance? When do you expect such a strategy will begin enhancing the security of Israel? It's obviously been entirely counterproductive so far. It's seems such an illogical tactic to me (morality aside) fighting indiscriminate killing on the part of a minority, with higher numbers of indiscriminate killings on the part of a government. On the trajectory this cycle has produced (Israeli crackdowns inciting violent Palestinian retaliation) the only end to the violence will seemingly come when all Palestinians are either dead, or too completely removed somehow from Israel to retaliate.

"i as the parasitic colonialist, have the right to protect myself against your aggressive aspiration."

Please correct me if I misunderstand you. It seems to me that you are declaring that all Palestinians who resist their dispossession are fair game, in other words, their disproportionate deaths are justified.

If this is true, then there must be some threshold of Palestinian resistance, when evoking your principle of Jewish purity in killing, however lop-sided the ratios. It would be interesting (though problematic for you to express here, I know) to get some idea of what general ratio of Jewish:Non-Jewish victims would be an upper limit of disproportionality, in your opinion (__:___). Surely you don't feel there should be no limit.

I also wonder, and I think you should feel more comfortable here in answering me this: What would be the lowest level of forceful Palestinian resistance that would trigger your concept of justified killing on the basis of motive?

Does non-violent Palestinian resistance against the Israeli state also justify killing them indescriminately? Should Gazans march on Jerusalem completely unarmed in the thousands, without even picking up a stone- would you advocate cutting them down?
 
Last edited:
hypewaders said:
Mr.Spock: "you wanna tell me you didnt tried to show the palestinians have more casualties then the israelis?"

They do, and I did show that.

"making this a meter statistic, just deprive the casualties of their humanity."

How? I have not denied the victimhood of Jewish casualties.

"yet you have no problem to compare body counts. i find it contradicting."

How, specifically?
Click to expand...


people deaths are just statistics? i do not like the idea. i thought life is something sacred. why do you persist this childish argument? what you hope to gain by it? what is the point by it?

"[Palestinian militants] persecute us by constantly attacking us with rockets."


You're stretching the term beyond normal connotation. Palestinian rockets are a deplorable example of lashing-out by a minority within Gaza that have no power to persecute Jews in the normal sense of the term, such as we in the West have learned from the deplorable state crimes against Jewish people through history.
Click to expand...

minority? and those who celebrate? are they a minority? the palestinians always benefit from the appearance of just rouge terrorists group. firing rockets on jews, is as every persecution. your term doesnt limit the means.

"i dont think being a jew gives you any justification for anything."

In terms of as acts of violence, I heartily agree with you. But you seem to be asserting that being militarily on top does. Did the Jews who violently resisted state persecution in even darker eras deserve to be killed along with their families?
Click to expand...

and you are saying the palestinians are being persecuted? a guessing game? im not in the mood for guess.

"what counts are the motives for someone actions."

Do you maintain that Jewish motives for killing Palestinians do not involve consideration of ethnicity? Do you believe that provoking desperate Palestinian retaliation, through disproportionate casualties and suffering is healthy for the security of Jews in the Mideast?
Click to expand...


i dont understand it all, i tolled you number of times already the reason for our actions. you oersist a point i have utterly objected to. palestinians are far from desperate-their actions are dictated by hate, not desperation. we have no control over their feelings.
"if you kill someone for hes religion, hes beliefs, if you look at him as parasite that stole your land, as a colonialist from europe you have a right to kill, then you are the aggressor that needs to be stopped"

Through disproportionate civilian attrition? Do you really think such a strategy can work- Total War vs. resistance? When do you expect such a strategy will begin enhancing the security of Israel? It's obviously been entirely counterproductive so far. It's seems such an illogical tactic to me (all ethic aside) fighting indescriminate killing on the part of a minority, with higher numbers of indescriminate killings on the part of a government. On the trajectory this cycle has produced, the only end to the violence will come when all Palestinians are either dead or too far removed to retaliate.
Click to expand...

total war? i though they are the ones who indiscriminately fire on us-yet it is flagged resistance. in other words, you identify with them.

"i as the parasitic colonialist, have the right to protect myself against your aggressive aspiration."

Please correct me if I misunderstand you. It seems to me that you are declaring that all Palestinians who resist their dispossession are fair game, in other words, their disproportionate deaths are justified.

If this is true, then there must be some threshold of Palestinian resistance, when evoking your principle of Jewish purity in killing, however lop-sided the ratios. It would be interesting (though problematic for you to express here, I know) to get some idea of what general ratio of Jewish:Non-Jewish victims would be an upper limit of disproportionality, in your opinion (__:___).

I also wonder, and I think you should feel more comfortable here in answering me this: What would be the lowest level of forceful Palestinian resistance that would not trigger your moral exceptionalism?

Does non-violent Palestinian resistance against the Israeli state also justify killing them indescriminately?
Click to expand...

non violent palestinian "resistance", is a dream made by those who dont know how much palestinians hate jews. if that is the case, of course not. but thy are not resisting they are murdering, something that elude their supporters.
 
Mr. Spock: "people deaths are just statistics?"

No. I don't mean to suggest that in any way. When statistics involve accumulating thousands of unnecessary deaths, we should pay attention. I hope that the words "never again" do not only apply to Jews in your world view.

"what is the point by it?"

How many people are dying, and in what ethnic proportions, says something important about how this conflict is being handled by Israel.

"minority?"

A minority of Gazans are retaliating violently against Israeli oppression.

"and those who celebrate? are they a minority?"

Much less of one. Does celebration put them on your hit list?

"firing rockets on jews, is as every persecution."

OK call the retaliation persecution, but understand, it's a very different situation from past persecutions of Jews as minorities within other states.

"you are saying the palestinians are being persecuted?"

Yes. Did the Jews who violently resisted state persecution in even darker eras deserve to be killed along with their families?

"i tolled you number of times already the reason for our actions."

Rather obliquely, it seems that you told me that resistance is punishable by indiscriminate warfare. Please try and rephrase it more clearly if I have misunderstood.

"palestinians are far from desperate"

Palestinians in Gaza are the epitome of desperation. They are locked in a stinking ghetto, and some are lashing out at Israel, at each other, at the USA, and at anyone who they feel is responsible for their plight.

"their actions are dictated by hate, not desperation."

Do you deny that desperation can breed hatred?

"we have no control over their feelings."

You are their jailors. You dictate their living conditions. This profoundly effects their feelings. It has always been the same, when any people, including Jews have been forcibly rounded-up into ethnic ghettos.

"total war?"

I am asking you if total war is the extent you are prepared to go to for the preservation of Jewish separatism.

"total war? i though they are the ones who indiscriminately fire on us"

Non-combattant Palestinians are being killed in far greater numbers than their Israeli counterparts. How much disparity in innocent deaths is acceptable to you, Mr. Spock?

"in other words, you identify with them."

I cannot possibly identify with Palestinians in situations such as Gaza. I have never suffered nearly as much. I do feel compassion and sadness for them- I feel sadness for young Palestinians whose lives are being burned up in rage, having so little cause for hope. I feel sadness for zionists too, who are so bitterly and ironically repeating the cycle of violence that Nazi Germany put into overdrive.

"non violent palestinian "resistance", is a dream made by those who dont know how much palestinians hate jews."

Non-violent Palestinian resistance really happens, and it's growing.
 
Last edited:
OK call the retaliation persecution, but understand, it's a very different situation from past persecutions of Jews as minorities within other states.
Click to expand...

but that is the whole point - we can defend ourselves now.
 
draqon said:
And now for some other excitingly not so new news:

Israel is cutting out internationals from seeing how IDF Jews Israelians are killing Palestinian children and mothers, calling them militia. Al-Jazeera tv coverage to be halted, tv used to show the doings of Jews on the land they have stolen, the Palestine land...

http://www.menassat.com/?q=en/news-...atens-al-jazeera-sanctions-over-gaza-coverage
Click to expand...

israeli killing children?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMW2sDCEEno
 
Mr. Spock: "but that is the whole point - we can defend ourselves now."

Are you sure? What if Israel's "defensive" methods of repressing Palestinians discredits her before all her generous friends? What if Israel's methods of ethnic security continue to be perceived as depraved by more Jews? In case the military solution does not become a Final one for the Palestinians (I have enough faith in the humanity of Israelis to fully expect that it will not) I urge you to forge deep friendships with as many of your neighbors as you can, especially non-zionist ones- That's the most dependable and respectable defense for Jewish life in the Mideast, or for anyone anywhere in this irreversibly-integrating world. Defying and neglecting coexistence isn't logical, Spock.
 
Last edited:
hypewaders said:
Mr. Spock: "but that is the whole point - we can defend ourselves now."

Are you sure? What if Israel's "defensive" methods of repressing Palestinians discredits her before all her generous friends? What if Israel's methods of ethnic security continue to be perceived as depraved by more Jews? In case the military solution does not become a Final one for the Palestinians (I have enough faith in the humanity of Israelis to fully expect that it will not) then I urge you to forge deep friendships among your non-zionist neighbors.
Click to expand...

ethnic security? i dont see any reason for this to further evolve. enough jew haters here all ready-no point in having a dialogue.
 
hypewaders said:
Mr. Spock: "but that is the whole point - we can defend ourselves now."

Are you sure? What if Israel's "defensive" methods of repressing Palestinians discredits her before all her generous friends? What if Israel's methods of ethnic security continue to be perceived as depraved by more Jews? In case the military solution does not become a Final one for the Palestinians (I have enough faith in the humanity of Israelis to fully expect that it will not) then I urge you to forge deep friendships among your non-zionist neighbors.
Click to expand...

don't bother with him, he is just going to dismiss non-zionist arguments as "no-point" dialogues.
 
Anyways, lets get back on topic:

Israelis kill 134 Palestinians with their American bought F-16 jets, the attack is claimed as everyone was once again a militia amongst the dead.

http://uruknet.info/?p=m41982&s1=h1

, meanwhile lifeless bodies of children lay amongst the ruins

pic.php


clearly also a militia
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top