:roflmao:
When? 7000 years ago?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouins
What were they fighting? Tumbleweed?
News From Gaza
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
- Status
:roflmao:
When? 7000 years ago?
What were they fighting? Tumbleweed?
i wasnt around 7000 years ago. im speaking of today.
and wiki is the only place that supports those findings, and their only source is a political book written by a political individual, not historian.
Actually there are archaeological finds that support this, not wiki.
You weren't there 2000 years ago either and yet Israelis want a Jewsih state.
archaeological find such as?
and is that is sufficient to claim land ownership? if i can prove my grand grand....grand father 10,000 years ago lived in syria, that gives me a right to a piece of a syrian land?
No. I had never heard of the "Negev Coexistence Forum ... a framework for Jewish-Arab collaborative efforts ... the only Arab-Jewish coexistence organization that was created in the Negev...." to quote from YOUR link's introduction.
I knew nothing about these nomads until by chance I watched a BBC documentary and was appalled and decided that I must mention it in at least one of the Sciforums threads related to the Israeli/Palestine conflict. These people never attacked Israel, never launched a rocket, never sent a suicide bomber, etc. Their only "crime" was being non-Jews peacefully living on land Israel now claims is Israeli land without proper Israeli permits.
This millenniums old civilization interfered with Israel's development and urbanization of the land. According to the BBC program, in one place where Israel was constructing a modern city, a Bedouin graveyard was found which according to the ISRAELI archeologists had not been used for about 5000 years. - You cannot get much stronger claim to ownership than occupation for more than 5000 years. Certainly, a newly created state, only 1% as old, has no right to tell the original inhabitants that they are living in "illegal settlements" as you put it.
This Jewish / Bedouin "cooperation forum" probably has only very liberal Jews participating, but what I read at their website, which your link provides, is quite consistent with the BBC’s TV documentary. For example, I find there:
"...The Arab Bedouins ... Traditionally a nomadic or semi-nomadic people, they have subsisted by farming and raising herds in the Negev desert for centuries. The origin of many tribes is the Arabian Peninsula, from which they migrated to the Negev desert via the Sinai Peninsula. ..." - These Bedouins, now in the Negev, seem to have come from the larger (65,000 strong) group that was once living mainly in the Sinai desert for about 10,000 years. (Negev has worse land for their herds, I think.)
According to your link, Moshe Dayan, 31 July 1963, said:
"...We should transform the Bedouins into an urban proletariat. Indeed, this will be a radical move which means that the Bedouin would not live on his land with his herds, but would become an urban person. His children would be accustomed to a father who wears trousers, does not carry a Shabaria [the traditional Bedouin knife] ... This would be a revolution, but it may be fixed within two generations. Without coercion but with governmental direction this phenomenon of the Bedouins will disappear."
There was plenty of "coercion" evident in the BBC documentary and some trivial resistance by the Bedouins throwing rocks at the Israeli bulldozers destroying their homes. (See photos at end of your link also.) The Bedouins carry the Shabaria, not guns, so there were no Israelis even injured.
Resuming quoting from your link:
"...almost half of Israel's 140,000 Negev Bedouins {2003 census data} citizens live in seven failing government-planned townships. The remainder live in 45 villages that are not officially recognized by the government, and do not receive basic services like water, electricity, garbage collection, education* and social services. Israel's planning authorities have given little or no consideration to the Bedouins culture, their needs or their way of life. ..." - The BBC and Wiki both made clear the reason for this "failing" of these "townships" (In Hebrew: "siyag" which means "enclosure" - an Israeli euphemism for admittedly better quality concentration camps than the Nazi versions, but as is true of all such camps, they are surrounded by armed guards; however, some Bedouins do manage to escape back to the desert they love on moonless nights.) - These camps were purposed cited on the least desirable Negev land where the soil is very poor but even if the soil were good, these nomads do not understand how to be good farmers, so Israel would still need to feed them their meager rations. A few try to illegally keep a hidden goat so their child will have milk. Since 2003 Israel has been spraying pesticide on fields Israel thinks are being farmed "illegally" - see photos in your link.
Bedouin men are allowed, encouraged by lack of any jobs in the camps, to leave to work in Israeli cities. - This helps keep the Bedouin birth rate well below a replacement level.
--------------
*There were approximately 150 school age children when BBC documentary was made (2007?). Their education is not in local schools. The BBC reporter accompanied about 25 of them on their hour long walk to where the school bus was to come and waited with them for more than an hour, but it never came. Most walked back to the camp, with the reporter, but a few decided to walk about two hours more to the school.
-------------
Many Bedouins are trying to maintain land claims officially granted under the Ottoman rule, (They have written deeds.) but:
Resuming quoting from your link:
" ...the Israeli State chooses to use the provision of basic services as a bargaining chip in the ongoing land dispute with the Bedouins, basic human rights such as the right to health, housing, education and other rights have
been and continue to be compromised while the deadlock persists. ..."
I thank you for providing this link, which re-enforced what the BBC documentary stated (or can be found at Wiki under:
The photos which begin on page 23 of your link tell the story of Israeli' oppression better than words can. It will all be over soon and Moshe Dayan's wish for the Bedouins to "disappear" will have been achieved.
Israel's slower extermination of these Bedouins will succeed, whereas Hitler’s more rapid efforts failed. - That seems to be the mainly lesson Israel learned from their tragic experience in WWII. I.e. Kill them slowly so the world will not do anything.
Last edited by a moderator:
i think you have to be an idiot to compare third generation of holocaust survivors to NAZIS. the source also says that the bedoiun birth rate is 5 times higher then average. so what extermination are we talking about here?
you just hate israelis, admit it.
you just hate israelis, admit it.
realy? so why their numbers are over 100000? the bedoiuns resides in the north and the south. they have their own cities, their own culture, they pay no taxes, and they can do what ever they want.
they harass jews, and rape jewish girls. some of them are the most dangerous criminals there are in israel, smuggling guns and drugs.
you even know what extermination mean, yo use it? because it looks like they secretly intent a violent uprising to me.
No, I hate what Israel has done to the Bedouins. All should oppose any nation's policy of extermination. That does not mean one hates the nation's people. Most of the world hates the US's policy under GWB, but does not yet at least hate the American people.
Yes, Bedouin BIRTH RATE is higher than Israeli BIRTH RATES*, BUT WITH NO MEDICAL CARE, the Bedouin population is rapidly contracting. The infant mortality rate of the Bedouins is more than an order of magnitude higher than that of the Jewish Israeli citizen.
-----------------
*Israel has a much less than replacement birth rate. That is why Israel is so actively recruiting even some non-Jewish women from all over the world. Their children will not even be Jews as "Jewishness" comes ONLY from your mother by Jewish rabbinical law. They will be Israelis and if coming to Israeli, loyal to Israel’s policy.
Last edited by a moderator:
what fucking extermination? do you even know what extermination is?
i think you hate not only israelis, ut jews as well. comparing us to the NAZIS, you ever opened up a history book on the NAZIS? you even know what they did?
you oppose what you think is our policies fine-but that isnt all ther is to it, you took the liberty to compare us to the same regime that REALLY exterminated 6 million jews, and millions of others, and dont pretend its not because you dont hate us.
we treat the bedoiuns very well, much better then any bi national state would ever treat them. they get university seats, they are commissioned with state money to improve their situation, yet they construct illegally in the desert-no government can accept that, so whats the point of sovereignty?
do yourself a favor and just hang picture of jew on the wall and throw darts at it.
Perhaps “extermination” is too harsh a word. Moshe Dayan just wanted the Bedouins to “disappear” – killing them not required if they would leave Israel, and many have as have many Palestinians. I am sure it would also be acceptable for the Bedouins to integrate, but think most doing so are picking up trash cans etc. not sitting in university class rooms. Some Jews were able to avoid being killed by Hilter’s SS thugs also. In fact the Zionist centuries old dream has been realized in the state of Israel. (In contrast the Bedouins will disappear as Moshe Dayan dreamed / wanted.)
I know* a lot (FOR A GENTILE) about and admire the Jewish culture, made it a point to visit the concentration camps – was surprised how small the ovens actually were etc. It was the Rabbi who told me the joke (…There are two of them”). I was honored to share the dinner where the youngest child began the prayers with the question: “Why is this night different from all others? …” with the rabbi’s family. I cannot remember how now, but once knew how to use “tefillin,” served as the rabi’s “shick engle” on vaction trips etc.
No, I admire most Jews as I too love learning. It is Israel’s policy I hate, just as I hate GWB’s policy.
--------------
*Water has always been scarce in the Holly land and Jewish law requires that the hands be washed before eating. I know how much water must be used. I.e. I know the test for compliance with the “wash hands law”, do you?
I know* a lot (FOR A GENTILE) about and admire the Jewish culture, made it a point to visit the concentration camps – was surprised how small the ovens actually were etc. It was the Rabbi who told me the joke (…There are two of them”). I was honored to share the dinner where the youngest child began the prayers with the question: “Why is this night different from all others? …” with the rabbi’s family. I cannot remember how now, but once knew how to use “tefillin,” served as the rabi’s “shick engle” on vaction trips etc.
No, I admire most Jews as I too love learning. It is Israel’s policy I hate, just as I hate GWB’s policy.
--------------
*Water has always been scarce in the Holly land and Jewish law requires that the hands be washed before eating. I know how much water must be used. I.e. I know the test for compliance with the “wash hands law”, do you?
sure they left, the fled because the arab armies came. and today they call it the nakba. of course, now they are speaking of how they are gonna take palestine back, and throw us all into the sea, with the irony, that even they dont wanna live under a palestinian rule. too good to live here.
As you did not show any knowledge as to how one tests to see if one has complied with the Jewish law that the hands must be washed before eating (even if water is scarce, as it frequently was in the Holy Land when that law was written.) here is a one word hint:
"elbow"
I am beginning to suspect that not only (as I have said before) that I am a better friend of the Jews than you (more concern with their long term survival) but also may know more of the Jewish culture and religious laws than you do. Are you one of the many non-religious Jews?
"elbow"
I am beginning to suspect that not only (as I have said before) that I am a better friend of the Jews than you (more concern with their long term survival) but also may know more of the Jewish culture and religious laws than you do. Are you one of the many non-religious Jews?
Israelis living in PALESTINE all claim to want to live in peace, on land they have stolen or taken by force from the Arabs. How many Arabs or Palestinians have been exterminated or imprisoned? Why have the Israelis resorted to the Nazi tactic of enforced containment (ghettoisation) in Gaza? Why do Israeli Army snipers use Arabs and their children for target practice, like the Nazis did to Jews in the wartime ghettoes?
Why can't the ungrateful Arabs just let them have all the land, and move somewhere else, so the Israelis can have their peaceful existence?
Why do neighbouring Arab countries get all upset when Israel periodically bombs them to ensure that no Arab neighbour becomes a potential threat? After all. the Israelis want peace, they want to live peacefully, so they have to bomb the Arabs now and then, to ensure their peaceful intentions are met.
yeah yeah, sure its us doing all the killing. Arabs are just a loving bunch of wonderful individuals. calling jews NAZIS, i dont think there is a greater insult-the education system have really messed up when it comes to the holocaust.
why the count is only from october? the jewish death from suicide bombers during oslo doesnt matter? not that i agree with this type of arguing, it is silly.
Mr. Spock : "not that i agree with this type of arguing, it is silly."
Why do you consider the consideration of Israeli vs. Palestinian casualties silly?
Last edited:
why? because it is a mockery to the victims. what should be discussed is why they died. jews died for being jews. palestinians died during military operations to defend the jews.
Mr. Spock: "it is a mockery to the victims."
How is it a mockery to the victims to enumerate their deaths?
"what should be discussed is why they died."
Forced ethnic separatism.
"jews died for being jews. palestinians died during military operations to defend the jews."
That's a very interesting construct. Are you suggesting that Jews have a greater justification for killing, and for killing in disproportionate numbers in this conflict, than non-Jews have?
How is it a mockery to the victims to enumerate their deaths?
"what should be discussed is why they died."
Forced ethnic separatism.
"jews died for being jews. palestinians died during military operations to defend the jews."
That's a very interesting construct. Are you suggesting that Jews have a greater justification for killing, and for killing in disproportionate numbers in this conflict, than non-Jews have?
- Status