New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

Yeah we have been down this road many times before and it boils down to this, you have a rather unique and bizarre definition of force. You believe that whenever government enacts a law you don’t like, it suddenly “forcing innocent people”. We choose to live together, and in living together we need a set of rules. That is where government comes in. You may not like all the rules. I don’t like all the rules, but by choosing to live here we accept those rules. And short of remote Alaska, there probably is no populated place where everyone likes all the rules we live by. And let’s not forget to mention your bizarre and exceptional exaggeration of government punishments for breaking the rules (e.g. Obamacare and prison).
No Joe. Liking or not liking the rules has nothing to do with what Government and what force is. A Government is by definition a group of people that have the legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people. It doesn't matter if it's a dictatorship, a communist country, a democracy or a republic. This is what sets "Government" apart from other groups of people. Any other group of people can provide a service or good that a Government can provide - but must do so through voluntarism. A Government is different in that it has the legal ability to anal-rape someone for 14 hours for 'walking funny', for forcing workers to pay a transaction tax on the sale of their labor, to toss someone into a rape-cage for smoking a weed, etc... ONLY the State can initiate force against an innocent person. Only the State can secretly violate your privacy. Only the State can legally initiate force against innocent people.

Getting it yet Joe? Any of this pushing past the decades of propaganda and brainwashing? See, these little squiggles are meant to hold meaning - and by ensuring we use the squiggles appropriately we're able to understand differences between concepts like 'Public' and 'Private'. It's important to understand the squiggles Joe - trust me on this one.

Secondly, we do not 'choose to live together'. We are born and stamped "American" at birth. You are not free to just move to Japan Joe. As AMOF you'd probably never be allowed to remain in Japan, or Australia, or Europe longer than 12 weeks unless you were given special permission. So, one more time - we are born stamped with a Citizenship - it's not a choice. At birth, infants automatically become liable for the debts incurred by their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents - American infants are bonded at birth and WILL BE forced to repay the loans made BY their parents through a labor tax. That is immoral Joe. This is pretty simple. You don't get to buy stuff and say 'it's for the good of the nation' and stick someone else with the bill. That's called STEALING.

The people who wrote the constitution would be sickened to see the horrid society we've become. So, the best solution is to dissolve the Union allowing people like you, who wish to live in a society where violence is the norm - to go live with one anther, and people like myself who prefer to limit the violence - to do likewise. Let's hope one day we get to have a "Public" vote on succession. Wouldn't that be nice Joe? I'm hoping it happens by 2035.


As for GovernmentCare:
MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, etc... these are our TOP Universities. They are all PRIVATE. They all have PRIVATE medical schools. We do NOT NEED the Government. Look at the other nations: Japan, Europe, Australia - are their PRIVATE Universities their top Universities, or is it instead PUBLIC? It's a totally different way to organize society Joe. I know you LOVE to go the quick route, violence, but I promise - if you just allow PRIVATE groups to organize themselves, you get a much much MUCH better outcome. Yeah, it means growing up and stop acting like a little baby. It means working TOGETHER as a society - voluntarily. You claim you want 'what's bets for society' - yet at every turn resort to violence against those that are innocent in society. That's a form of sociopathy Joe. Jesus, I swear to the Gods you people are like little children who never grew up. Just look at yourselves and the sickeningly way you quickly resort to violence. Again and again and again. No matter what the situation you call upon your *magical* deity The State and ask it to rain down hell on the innocent people around you - and then wonder why society is so shitty. Literally like little children. No wonder you're so easily led around by the nose by these two-bit hacks that act as our Politicians. I find it pathetic. Back and forth you go. Democrip/Rethuglican. Two wings of the Authoritarian Party playing off your little child-like emotions and fears. How sad. How pathetic. And how very childish.


The next time you want to use the State to harm someone innocent, instead of claiming some bullshit like 'it's for the glory of God' or 'the good of the country' - try to recall those lessons your mother taught you: Do not hit. Do not steal. Use your words. It's really not all that difficult Joe. Right now, as we speak, you cheer on the fact the State is going to initiate force against those who do not buy health insurance - so long as they had the misfortune of being born in the same geographical area as you - as if then gives you the right to use force against them.

Don't worry - you'll get your public 'training' hospitals where the poor act as the practice-meat for the less-and-less qualified medical doctors as they gain some training and experience on the poor and work their way out of public healthcare into private healthcare - at least the good ones. The bad ones? They'll stay in Public and keep cutting away at their patients. This is going to happen. Don't make any mistake about that. It will happen. That's the world you leave your children.
 
LOL, that is all hogwash Michael. You have an active imagination, I'll say that.
Nice argument Joe - the squiggles getting the best of you again?

I have question: Do you think in a "Free" nation like the Union we inhabit, that 'Free' people should be 'Free' to obtain goods and services from anyone they so chose to interact with as an adult?
 
Nice argument Joe - the squiggles getting the best of you again?

I have question: Do you think in a "Free" nation like the Union we inhabit, that 'Free' people should be 'Free' to obtain goods and services from anyone they so chose to interact with as an adult?

LOL, squiggles? Do you have squiggles on the brain?

And no, I don't think people should be free to obtain goods and services from anyone they choose to interact with as adults. As an example, I don’t think people should be able to buy fissile or explosives materials for example from any Joe on any street corner.
 
20130627_pardon1.jpg

Strange, that picture reminds me of a photo-op by Sarah Palin, you know she is so very religious.
 
No Joe. Liking or not liking the rules has nothing to do with what Government and what force is. A Government is by definition a group of people that have the legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people. It doesn't matter if it's a dictatorship, a communist country, a democracy or a republic. This is what sets "Government" apart from other groups of people. Any other group of people can provide a service or good that a Government can provide - but must do so through voluntarism. A Government is different in that it has the legal ability to anal-rape someone for 14 hours for 'walking funny', for forcing workers to pay a transaction tax on the sale of their labor, to toss someone into a rape-cage for smoking a weed, etc... ONLY the State can initiate force against an innocent person. Only the State can secretly violate your privacy. Only the State can legally initiate force against innocent people.

Getting it yet Joe? Any of this pushing past the decades of propaganda and brainwashing? See, these little squiggles are meant to hold meaning - and by ensuring we use the squiggles appropriately we're able to understand differences between concepts like 'Public' and 'Private'. It's important to understand the squiggles Joe - trust me on this one.

Yeah I have heard that all before, you hate any government that disagrees with your notions. Any government you disagree with is according to you raping pillaging, etc. you. But that is not reality, nor is it relevant to this discussion other than to note your very biased and tunneled opinions.

Secondly, we do not 'choose to live together'. We are born and stamped "American" at birth. You are not free to just move to Japan Joe. As AMOF you'd probably never be allowed to remain in Japan, or Australia, or Europe longer than 12 weeks unless you were given special permission. So, one more time - we are born stamped with a Citizenship - it's not a choice. At birth, infants automatically become liable for the debts incurred by their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents - American infants are bonded at birth and WILL BE forced to repay the loans made BY their parents through a labor tax. That is immoral Joe. This is pretty simple. You don't get to buy stuff and say 'it's for the good of the nation' and stick someone else with the bill. That's called STEALING.

No that is called delusional thinking. We can live wherever we choose. And if you dislike our government so much, you should go to a place where you can live your libertarian paradise (i.e. the Alaskan outback). I don’t know about you, maybe you had freaky parents. But when I was born, no one stamped me American or otherwise. And children do not become liable for the debts of their parents. Nor do individual citizens become liable for the debts of their nation, just as stockholders do not become liable for the debts of corporations for which they may have an ownership interest. American children are not bonded. That is just more of your ideological machinations for which you are never lacking.

The people who wrote the constitution would be sickened to see the horrid society we've become. So, the best solution is to dissolve the Union allowing people like you, who wish to live in a society where violence is the norm - to go live with one anther, and people like myself who prefer to limit the violence - to do likewise. Let's hope one day we get to have a "Public" vote on succession. Wouldn't that be nice Joe? I'm hoping it happens by 2035.

LOL, that my friend is seriously delusional. I suggest, as I have many times before, you look up the definition of violence, because it is not consistent with yours. When you have to make up new definitions to words in order to make your argument, there just might be something wrong with your argument.

You don’t need a vote on succession, go to Alaska and you can live your libertarian ideals tomorrow. But you are a hypocrite my friend. You would much rather stay here and enjoy the benefits of our government, while simultaneously complaining about it.

As for GovernmentCare:
MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, etc... these are our TOP Universities. They are all PRIVATE. They all have PRIVATE medical schools. We do NOT NEED the Government. Look at the other nations: Japan, Europe, Australia - are their PRIVATE Universities their top Universities, or is it instead PUBLIC? It's a totally different way to organize society Joe. I know you LOVE to go the quick route, violence, but I promise - if you just allow PRIVATE groups to organize themselves, you get a much much MUCH better outcome. Yeah, it means growing up and stop acting like a little baby. It means working TOGETHER as a society - voluntarily. You claim you want 'what's bets for society' - yet at every turn resort to violence against those that are innocent in society. That's a form of sociopathy Joe. Jesus, I swear to the Gods you people are like little children who never grew up. Just look at yourselves and the sickeningly way you quickly resort to violence. Again and again and again. No matter what the situation you call upon your *magical* deity The State and ask it to rain down hell on the innocent people around you - and then wonder why society is so shitty. Literally like little children. No wonder you're so easily led around by the nose by these two-bit hacks that act as our Politicians. I find it pathetic. Back and forth you go. Democrip/Rethuglican. Two wings of the Authoritarian Party playing off your little child-like emotions and fears. How sad. How pathetic. And how very childish.

The next time you want to use the State to harm someone innocent, instead of claiming some bullshit like 'it's for the glory of God' or 'the good of the country' - try to recall those lessons your mother taught you: Do not hit. Do not steal. Use your words. It's really not all that difficult Joe. Right now, as we speak, you cheer on the fact the State is going to initiate force against those who do not buy health insurance - so long as they had the misfortune of being born in the same geographical area as you - as if then gives you the right to use force against them.

Don't worry - you'll get your public 'training' hospitals where the poor act as the practice-meat for the less-and-less qualified medical doctors as they gain some training and experience on the poor and work their way out of public healthcare into private healthcare - at least the good ones. The bad ones? They'll stay in Public and keep cutting away at their patients. This is going to happen. Don't make any mistake about that. It will happen. That's the world you leave your children.

LOL that is your normal load of nonsense, but here is the bottom line. The state is not harming people by allowing them to have access to affordable healthcare. And there are many good healthcare models which are more efficient and effective than the pre-Obamacare US healthcare model. And you cannot point to one successful libertarian healthcare model…not one…there is nothing you can point to which supports your contentions and political ideology. That is the unfortunate bottom line for you.
 
LOL, squiggles? Do you have squiggles on the brain?

And no, I don't think people should be free to obtain goods and services from anyone they choose to interact with as adults. As an example, I don’t think people should be able to buy fissile or explosives materials for example from any Joe on any street corner.
Nuclear weapons for sale on the street corner - this is your example? Hyperbole much?

Since this debate is about healthcare: Should 'Free' adult American Citizens be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?
 
Nuclear weapons for sale on the street corner - this is your example? Hyperbole much?

Since this debate is about healthcare: Should 'Free' adult American Citizens be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?

LOL, don't like the answer...much? Reality and the stupidity of your position embarrass you much? I didn't say anything about nuclear weapons. I said fissile materials and explosives. You could make a weapon out of them. But you don't need to. They are both dangerous in their own right. If you need a larger list of materials, I can certainly provide one. You just don't like the answers because they punch big holes in your ideology.

PS:
Fissile materials are used in medicine.
 
And you cannot point to one successful libertarian healthcare model…not one…there is nothing you can point to which supports your contentions and political ideology. That is the unfortunate bottom line for you.
Ouch!!!
 
LOL, don't like the answer...much? Reality and the stupidity of your position embarrass you much? I didn't say anything about nuclear weapons. I said fissile materials and explosives. You could make a weapon out of them. But you don't need to. They are both dangerous in their own right. If you need a larger list of materials, I can certainly provide one. You just don't like the answers because they punch big holes in your ideology.

PS:
Fissile materials are used in medicine.
You literally sound like a petulant child.

In the real world the USA is murdering innocent women and children in Iraq.
In the real world real infants are being born deformed and real children are dying of radiation exposure.
Harvard: Depleted Uranium Radioactive Contamination In Iraq.
The genetic integrity of the Iraqi people is permanently destroyed.

But, hey, you got a good laugh - that's nice. If you're done laughing, perhaps you could make meaning out of the squiggles and answer the question: Should 'Free' adult American Citizens be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?


Oh, but we already know Joe's answer don't we Joe? You do not think your fellow 'Free' American Citizen should be free to voluntarily interact with one another in a non-violent, non-coercive, non-fraudulent way do you Joe? No, Joe was normalized to violence and so he's happy with using violence against "Free" innocent Citizens - but not happy to allow them to voluntarily interact with one another. That's the sign of a sociopath. I wonder Joe, how far are you willing to go to prevent free Citizens from freely non-violently interacting with one another? You'd want them put in a cage wouldn't you? You'd want them fined and their wages garnished wouldn't you? Take a good look in the mirror Joe - that's what a sociopath looks like. Probably pretty normal. Probably thinks to themselves their pretty normal. In reality they are anything but normal.
 
You literally sound like a petulant child.

LOL, I take it reality does not please you.

In the real world the USA is murdering innocent women and children in Iraq.

Oh, I don’t suppose you have any evidence of same? US combat operations ended two years ago when the US withdrew all of its combat troops from the country.

In the real world real infants are being born deformed and real children are dying of radiation exposure.
Harvard: Depleted Uranium Radioactive Contamination In Iraq.
The genetic integrity of the Iraqi people is permanently destroyed.

Can you provide credible proof of this claim? No, you cannot….just like all of your other claims. But how is this relevant to the issue of taxation. You are obfuscating again Michael.

But, hey, you got a good laugh - that's nice. If you're done laughing, perhaps you could make meaning out of the squiggles and answer the question: Should 'Free' adult American Citizens be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?

I already answered that question, twice. You just didn’t like the answer. NO. And I gave you some examples.


Oh, but we already know Joe's answer don't we Joe? You do not think your fellow 'Free' American Citizen should be free to voluntarily interact with one another in a non-violent, non-coercive, non-fraudulent way do you Joe? No, Joe was normalized to violence and so he's happy with using violence against "Free" innocent Citizens - but not happy to allow them to voluntarily interact with one another. That's the sign of a sociopath. I wonder Joe, how far are you willing to go to prevent free Citizens from freely non-violently interacting with one another? You'd want them put in a cage wouldn't you? You'd want them fined and their wages garnished wouldn't you? Take a good look in the mirror Joe - that's what a sociopath looks like. Probably pretty normal. Probably thinks to themselves their pretty normal. In reality they are anything but normal.

LOL, Michael taxation is not the same as killing people, striking women in the face or nuking innocents. I think most people can rather easily understand the difference. But you on the on the other hand, have a great deal of difficulty understanding the difference between taxation (i.e. paying the bill for the services and goods provided by our governments) and physical violence.

You can call me names as you have done. You make continue to make me laugh with your bizarre, unreasoned and counterfactual claims. And I am sure you will continue to do both. But you will not convince people with half a brain to adopt your fringe ideology.

You and Wellwisher want all the benefits of our government, you just don’t want to pay the bills. You want to be deadbeats. And unfortunately for you guys there is no constitutional right to be a deadbeat. As I have repeatedly told you, if you are really serious about your ideology, go to the outback of Alaska where you can live your dystopian utopia…no Federal Reserve, no government regulation, no Federal Reserve Notes, no taxes. It’s all there for you Michael. But we both know you don’t have the courage to live your ideology.
 
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Michael,
Are you a Libertarian and if so what type would you classify yourself?


http://civilliberty.about.com/od/uscivillibertie1/p/libertarians.htm

Ever heard of a Libertarian Socialist?
Me personally? What does that matter? All that matters is my argument, not what I personally believe. I could be an AI for all the argument matters.
That said, if you want to know my personal belief - it's pretty easy to follow: it's immoral to initiate force against innocent people. Which category of Libertarian is consistent with this stance?

As I understand, Libertarian Socialism would allow me to bury a seed and make an apple tree, I could eat those apples, I could make more apples trees, I could pay for people to work on my apple farm - but at some point I'm going to be too large and have my farm taken away as part of a work-share cooperative. It's this last point I object to. I have no problem with people doing whatever they like - just so long as they don't initiate force against other people. It's pretty simple. So, if they stated that collective today - fine, go for it. I think we should try all manner of voluntary ideas out. I'm not wedded to any one idea. If people WANT to be part of a work-share cooperative, that's great. Just do not transgress against people who do not want to and want to do something else that's also centered on non-violent voluntarism.

The lessons we teach to children: Don't hit, Don't steal, Use your Words - don't go away just because you're a little larger and now called an "adult". Scientifically it can be shown the forebrain doesn't reach it's full developmental potential until sometime around 40 years and it's quite clear to me a lot of 'large' people are just big children who want the Government to provide them with magical goodies the way their parents did when they were small sized people.


Government is defined as a group of humans with the legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people. To say we need Government to provide a service or good is an oxymoron. It suggests a break down somewhere else in society - primarily money or in our case fiat currency. By saying we want Government to provide a service or good, what is really being said is we want to force people to accept a good or service - that they want! Ha! You don't have to force people to accept a good or service they want. If people really did want the service that's great - allow free people to provide said good or service.

Children attend school for 13 years (K-12), many then attend University for 4 years. Many go on to do a graduate degree 4 more years. We're talking about MILLIONS of people investing millions of hours, decades of life, all to provide a good or service. They'd LOVE it if they knew what people wanted so they could provide it. It's what we do. Now, stop and think about healthcare. Somewhere someone said 'Greedy Insurance Companies' - how can this exist in a free market? It simply can't. If there's a business that's making money hand-over-fist, I promise you there's a million other people ready to compete and get a peace of that action. As a matter of fact, this is the entire point in profit - to signal to society there's a huge amount of demand for a good or service. There can't BE greedy anything because competition will immediately reduce profit down to the most efficient level with razor thin margins all while raising quality. The reason why insurance and healthcare is stuffed isn't because of too much freedom - but too little. And this brings us back full circle. We wouldn't have this problem if we weren't an immoral society all too happy to use force against one another. Not only does this bring the worse out in people, it's a lie. If we actually used sound money, protected property and upheld the law - then people are stuck having to voluntarily socialize - this brings out the BEST in people.


The Iraq War shows we are far from bringing out the best in people.
 
I see them as more snivel libertarians . :)

I was trying to be objective and hopefully informative, at least on my part. I am allowing Michael opportunity to actually explain his philosophy, rather than repeating the talking points of self proclaimed clowns like Limbaugh and Beck and the more devious and dangerous political obstructionists and seditionists in congress, who will not even allow votes on qualified Judges, which are actually required and a mainstay of fairness in a Libertarian system. Of course, The Judiciary (laws and enforcement to protect private rights) are socialist systems.

And in a roundabout way I was trying to inform Michael that Libertarianism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive.
 
NO. And I gave you some examples.
So, you do not think 'Free' adult American Citizens should be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?!?

I find that so unAmerican as to be near stupefying - well, actually not really. But few would be so bold as to admit they want to reduce basic civil liberties for other so-called 'free' citizens to voluntarily obtain or not obtain a good or service so long as there is no fraud involved. Usually only religious fruit-cakes are so emboldened to suggest such an atrocity. And usually it's some idiotic gay-marriage issue their sky-daddy fantasy book taught them to think incorrectly about. As I've stated: State 'Education' may not educate children to read and write, but it shure is doing one thing - that's for sure.



OK, then I have another question: Should 'Free' adult Tongan Citizens be Free to obtain or not obtain healthcare goods and services from one another without any interference from Government so long as there is no fraud involved?

A little about Tonga. The Kingdom of Tonga is a small Polynesian sovereign State made out of an archipelago comprising 176 islands. Many Tongan's practice their indigenous 'healthcare' and trade in traditional medical goods and services that would be regulated illegal in the USA. Do you think these free ADULTS have the right to practice their traditional medicines with one another in Tonga that are illegal in the USA?
 
I was trying to be objective and hopefully informative, at least on my part. I am allowing Michael opportunity to actually explain his philosophy, rather than repeating the talking points of self proclaimed clowns like Limbaugh and Beck and the more devious and dangerous political obstructionists and seditionists in congress, who will not even allow votes on qualified Judges, which are actually required and a mainstay of fairness in a Libertarian system. Of course, The Judiciary (laws and enforcement to protect private rights) are socialist systems.

And in a roundabout way I was trying to inform Michael that Libertarianism and Socialism are not mutually exclusive.
I have never in my life listened to Limbaugh or Beck other than as a skit on the Daily Show.

Yes, you make an important point, one I think you may not fully appreciate: Judiciary is a social service. Libertarians and Anarchists are not anti-social. Exactly the opposite is true, they are ultra-PRO-social. Stop and think about this a minute. Libertarian and Anarchist societies can only function through voluntarism. This means if you want a Judiciary service, you'll have to peacefully and voluntarily agree to it before hand. This is done each and every day - and through trillions of dollars of international trade across the year. There is no superstate in existence. Never has been and never will be. Instead companies volunteer to agree to abide by arbitration in their legal contracts - an arbitration that cannot be upheld by force. Again, there is no superstate. When Russia defaulted on it's loans - that was that. Interest rates were raised but other than that - nothing can be done. Yet, trillions of dollars are traded internationally and all done voluntarily - without a State to coerce people into compliance.


See, the truth is, the State is a retreat away from socialism - and back into the jungle. The State is anti-Civilization (civilization is based on cooperation and voluntary trade). The Government, again, is a group of humans with the legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people.


One need only look at the fact that Workers are taxed when they work - in the USA at least, this was not the case up until 100 years ago. And across that time the USD has lost 98% of it's value. We now have parents working around the clock, putting the children into daycare at age 6 weeks (in Australia as well) and they can still barely make ends meet. This is the end result of resorting to force. Which is sad, but, there's nothing that can be done. We need to raise our children peacefully and to think logically and try to have as little contract with the State as possible. It will collapse under it's own weight soon enough.



Think about the worlds top universities - MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Cornell, etc... these are all PRIVATE universities. They have PRIVATE medical schools. There's ZERO need of a Public University to teach and train the world's best medical doctors. The AMA is a private organization as well - it certifies them. The Government isn't needed at all - not at all. The Government is an immoral poorly designed redistribution machine that hemorrhages money as it buys votes - when it's not making war or stealing money from the middle class and giving it to the top 1%. The Government HATES for you to think it's not needed. It does everything in it's power to convince you of it's necessity - but that's a lie. The problem is the AMA and other industries are using government to prevent competition. A second and bigger problem is our money - it's not money, it's fiat currency. It's literally destroying out way of life. These problems arise from the State.

The solution is less State and more freedom not less freedom and more State.
 
Can you provide credible proof of this claim?
From the cited article:

Continual usage of DU after Gulf War I on other Iraqi territories through the illegal No-Fly Zones and the major DU loaded Cruise Missiles attack of year 1998, all contributed in making
the problem [of radioactive contamination] increasingly complex.

During 2003, military operations conducted in Iraq by the invading forces used additional rounds of DU in heavily populated areas such as Baghdad, Samawa and other provinces. It is only fair to conclude that the environment in Iraq and its population have been exposed continuously to DU weaponry or its contaminating remains, since 1991.

Accordingly millions of Iraqi’s have received higher doses of radioactivity than ordinary background levels. As a result a multi-fold increase of low level radiation exposure related diseases have been registered since 1995. An increase of children’s leukemia, congenital malformations, breast cancer etc…

The shift of leukemia incidence rates towards younger children during the recent years, and its association with geographically distributed contaminated areas, offers strong evidence of the correlation between LLR exposure and resulted health damages.
 
Brief Note on Liberty

Brief Note on Liberty

Write4U said:

I was trying to be objective and hopefully informative, at least on my part.

Libertarianism is an interesting, oft-unwieldy beast. To wit, a very common interpretation today is that we ought to set the United States back to a hardscrabble independence circa Frederick Jackson Turner. This is the notion romanticized by the right-wing highjackers we might deride as the "Tea and Crumpets Party".

But where this sort of libertarian sees tyranny in communalism, there is a very simple contrast we might propose.

• It is not hard to imagine what takes place every day, when people across this nation haul themselves to a job they loathe in order to pay the bills, eventually finding career comfort in the paycheck, but never really pursuing their genuine desires. Indeed, this simple reality is part of what set Generations X and Why to whining like babies whose candy has just been stolen. Nor can we say that this is what the Boomers intended, at least consciously. Still, we accept this basic reality as the reality in effect, regardless of how we argue about how to change that reality.

• But imagine a world in which, sure, someone still needs to serve your coffee, or clean the office washroom, but this is not the whole of their existence. When working eighty or a hundred hours in a week gets one wealthy, instead of just worn out. It's one thing to work sixty hours a week because that's what the sector demands, but when we watch musicians, crafters, and even the passionately compassionate flames extinguished in exchange for mere subsistance, does nothing strike us as amiss? Is it really so bad for business that the workers who are also consumers should be able to consume in pursuit of happiness? Maybe the idea of guaranteed housing conflicts with libertarian mcmansion dreams, but when you're the hardworking, average American fretting over mortgage or rent—bottom line, homelessness—food security, health care, and the mere necessities of survival, that all of your passions should be consumed in simply existing, maybe not having to worry where your next meal is coming from, or if you have a roof over your head, or if you can afford to have that weird, knotty lump examined, might seem a greater comfort. Sure, we're conditioned against a nanny state forcing us to survive, but ask Oklahoma about universal preschool, and the difference a meal and some dedicated care can make in a child's learning potential, and it's not hard to see the potential benefits of unleashing the best our citizens have to offer instead of asking them to spend all that dancing on a razor's edge.​

Is your liberty in the right to work full time and still be too poor to see a doctor when you need to? Or is it in the right to actually be able to record that album someday, or afford to spend resources helping other people in need, or finishing that degree so you can teach high school instead of sit in a cubicle and type numbers into a computer all day for the insurance company?

There is reality, and then there are potentials. I don't buy the libertarianism that encourages me to subsistence and serfdom. A better libertarianism? That's kind of like a better communism; sure, I can imagine the idea, but figuring out how it works is a different issue entirely.

Still, though, I think the contrast is clear, and in my opinion the pursuit of that better condition is a far better liberty than the surrender so many of our "libertarian" neighbors propose.
 
I have never in my life listened to Limbaugh or Beck other than as a skit on the Daily Show.
Good for you, but you sound like them.
But apparently you also have not read the Constitution of the Unites States. I'll post the link now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution

Yes, you make an important point, one I think you may not fully appreciate: Judiciary is a social service. Libertarians and Anarchists are not anti-social. Exactly the opposite is true, they are ultra-PRO-social. Stop and think about this a minute. Libertarian and Anarchist societies can only function through voluntarism. This means if you want a Judiciary service, you'll have to peacefully and voluntarily agree to it before hand. This is done each and every day - and through trillions of dollars of international trade across the year. There is no superstate in existence. Never has been and never will be. Instead companies volunteer to agree to abide by arbitration in their legal contracts - an arbitration that cannot be upheld by force. Again, there is no superstate. When Russia defaulted on it's loans - that was that. Interest rates were raised but other than that - nothing can be done. Yet, trillions of dollars are traded internationally and all done voluntarily - without a State to coerce people into compliance.

But we are not talking about international trade, are we? We are speaking of voluntarily buying health or life insurance and paying regular monthly premiums, then find that when I get sick the insurance refuses to pay my hospital bill, or when I die, the insurance company refuses to pay out the life insurance that was negotiated 20 years before. Who is this Judiciary that will compel the insurance company to satisfy the contract? Think about that for a moment. And in your International example a slight raise in interest rates has enormous consequences for the country who has to pay the higher interest and the country who receives the benefits of the higher interest.

This is why Article Three of the Constitution provides for an independent arm of government with powers of enforcement, The Judiciary, to resolve and if necessary enforce contractual disputes over "voluntary arms length agreements between individuals and businesses".

See, the truth is, the State is a retreat away from socialism - and back into the jungle. The State is anti-Civilization (civilization is based on cooperation and voluntary trade). The Government, again, is a group of humans with the legal obligation to initiate force against innocent people.
But now you are arguing against yourself. Does Libertarianism depend on social contracts (socialism) or not?

And how do you propose to initiate force against those who break their end of voluntary contracts? Assemble a posse? A lynch mob? Perhaps hire an organization like the Pinkertons? How about making a voluntary deal for protection with the Mafia?

One need only look at the fact that Workers are taxed when they work - in the USA at least, this was not the case up until 100 years ago. And across that time the USD has lost 98% of it's value. We now have parents working around the clock, putting the children into daycare at age 6 weeks (in Australia as well) and they can still barely make ends meet. This is the end result of resorting to force. Which is sad, but, there's nothing that can be done. We need to raise our children peacefully and to think logically and try to have as little contract with the State as possible. It will collapse under it's own weight soon enough.
I disagree, one need only look at the fact that most of Workers of the great public projects in those days you speak of, such as the railroads, interstate highways, bridges were not taxed because they were not paid a wage at all, also known as indentured servitude (Chinese) or the more popular practice of slavery (Blacks).
You cannot be talking about those days, are you? Are you talking about those Workers and their rights to voluntarily negotiate a fair wage? That is Libertarian?

Think about the worlds top universities - MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Cornell, etc... these are all PRIVATE universities. They have PRIVATE medical schools. There's ZERO need of a Public University to teach and train the world's best medical doctors. The AMA is a private organization as well - it certifies them. The Government isn't needed at all - not at all. The Government is an immoral poorly designed redistribution machine that hemorrhages money as it buys votes - when it's not making war or stealing money from the middle class and giving it to the top 1%. The Government HATES for you to think it's not needed. It does everything in it's power to convince you of it's necessity - but that's a lie. The problem is the AMA and other industries are using government to prevent competition. A second and bigger problem is our money - it's not money, it's fiat currency. It's literally destroying out way of life. These problems arise from the State.
No they don't. Money is merely a means of exchange. It is a promissory note backed by the "good faith" of the Nation, not the particular government in power at a given time. The US does not default on its Libertarian principle of promising value for pay.
I also disagree on your reversal of the concept of "public education". Many of these institutions receive research government grants for shared public interests such as Pollution of the Air, Water, Soil Erosion from clear cutting, Pesticides, unsound farming practices (remember the dust bowl), the melting ice-caps, you know those things which do not respect borders at all.
Nobody is responsible, so you are on your own kid. I am too busy acquiring wealth to voluntarily concern myself with this or that issue, on the other side of the tracks. This is for the "General Welfare" of the Nation.

And how many "talented" students can these private institutions accommodate? And who can afford them?

And it is ALL ABOUT MONEY. With enough money you can buy your way through many of those institutions. I believe there are plenty examples available. It helps the school with in-kind matching Federal Project Funds.

The solution is less State and more freedom not less freedom and more State.
I disagree, the problem lies not in the concept of State, but in the quality of the people's representatives who are personally corrupt. And that is where everyone is in agreement. The system is fine, the RULES need to be addressed.

This is where the SCOTUS made a great blunder, which I believe will be addressed soon, in the declaring Organizations as persons in and of themselves. This now includes the State and you are addressing the problem based on the assumption that the State is a corrupt person. But the concept and function of freely and voluntarily assembly of elected representatives is a Libertarian ideal.
But without clearly defined financial limitations on the ethical privileges and responsibilities of "elected representatives" that is where the corruption of the individuals and by extension, the corruption of the system begins. Today we have 'professional
politicians", almost always with backing from large financial corporations. Their votes on law are bought and not necessarily voluntarily agreed on. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY.

But it was just demonstrated recently that shutting down the State (government) results almost immediately in chaos, instead of "voluntary cooperation between willing and able honest persons". That is a na�ve viewpoint which will lead us back to indentured servitude and slavery, except this time it will be colorblind. You can always find a job if you are willing to work for free. But I doubt one can call that voluntary contracts. But the Stock market is the true picture of the benefits of high unemployment, when dividends (unearned income) is taxed lower than "earned" income by workers. Ask Warren Buffet, who has publicly acknowledged that it was an unfair distribution when his secretary pays a higher percent in taxes on her income of 60,000 than he does on his income of 60,000,000 (something like that) per year.

10% of the population owns 80% of the wealth of the nation and it is not in any off-shore tax free "government" bank account, but in the hands of "individuals" (stock holders) who could not care less about your "voluntary cooperation". Remember the days of "strike breakers", you know that voluntary negotiation between Unions (a libertarian concept) and Big Business.

We are in agreement on one point. The legislative branches of government has been corrupted by unlimited anonymous donations to "individuals" who are supposed to act on behalf of the country's citizenry in an honest, competent, and prudent manner.

Unless you want to go back to pure tribalism, your idea of governance is na�ve. Did you know that the Constitution contains several governmental concept practiced by Native American tribes and with honor and voluntary cooperation.
At the time of European encounter and colonization, the original Iroquois League, based in present-day New York, was also known as the Five Nations, as it was composed of the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca nations. The Five Nations are believed to have emerged as distinct tribes by the 15th century or earlier.[2] Each had a distinct territory and function within the League. Iroquois influence extended into Canada, westward into the Great Lakes and down both sides of the Allegheny mountains into Virginia and Kentucky. To reduce conflict, they came together in an association known today as the Iroquois League, which in their language was known as the League of Peace and Power. The League is embodied in the Grand Council, an assembly of fifty hereditary sachems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois
It was customary for elected Chiefs to give up all their possessions in exchange for political power. They could not have both economic and political power, because it tends to corrupt ethical objectivity.

It is up to the electorate to keep the system honest. Earlier I mentioned the "Halliburton Loophole" as an example of "special treatment" or "quid pro quo" while in office. An impeachable crime, IMO.
Under President Bush and Vice President Cheney, fracking was exempted from significant EPA regulation
I am sure you know about Cheney's financial interests in Halliburton, even as vice-president. Think for a moment about the implications.

Individual Greed is the enemy, not the Social Services provided by the State (by voluntary agreement of an informed citizenry and accessible voting procedures and places). A common social service to insure an orderly growing of an enormously wealthy country, based on the principle of common ownership and have that right protected from unlawful seizure by a dictatorship of any kind. This why we have voluntary peaceful changes in the self-representation of the citizenry, not "special interest" groups.
 
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