New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

Write4U

Notice where the Scandinavian countries are clustered. Most pay LESS than half what we do, they cover anyone for any basic health care need and, as I keep pointing out, they are about 50/50 Capitalist/Socialist. Beyond having the longest life expectancy, they also have the highest incomes and standards of living(average). They pay about 50% of their income above $50,000 in taxes, but they have the best outcomes on Earth, so who's to argue? Some things should be socialist in nature, some should be more capitalist, the right mix works much better than either alone.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Write4U

Notice where the Scandinavian countries are clustered. Most pay LESS than half what we do, they cover anyone for any basic health care need and, as I keep pointing out, they are about 50/50 Capitalist/Socialist. Beyond having the longest life expectancy, they also have the highest incomes and standards of living(average). They pay about 50% of their income above $50,000 in taxes, but they have the best outcomes on Earth, so who's to argue? Some things should be socialist in nature, some should be more capitalist, the right mix works much better than either alone.
Grumpy:cool:

In case I was not clear, I agree 100%. They also have excellent public education and longer paid vacations for workers.
U.S. workers enjoy far fewer vacation days than Europeans
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20050824/

In passing I mentioned that I am a Humanist which probably can be taken as social progressive, but I am also a fiscal conservative and an efficient cost effective government which poses a minimal burden should be a priority for any society. Those European countries seem to have struck a nice balance, resulting in vibrant economies, though the "uninformed" always seem to sneer at those "socialist" Europeans.
 
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This is the situation the free market put us in. We pay twice as much for worse life expectancy, plus we don't cover everyone. What more need be said? Our current healthcare system is not working, at least Obama did something, what have Republicants done?

Grumpy:cool:
You think healthcare is a free-market? Are you nuts or just talking to hear yourself talk? Go try and practice medicine without an MD or DO and see how quickly you're jailed. In a FREE market it'd be up to the consumer to decide whom they visited or did not visit for their healthcare. As the law stands, if YOU gave someone advice about what to do with their health - you're breaking the law. Imagine that - you tell your nephew to take a spoon of lemon honey for a sore throat and you're breaking the law.

Healthcare is the second most regulated industry after finance. It's estimated to cost of $256 billion per year (and maybe as high as $657 billion PER YEAR) in regulatory costs.

Half a TRILLION dollars in regulatory costs every year - that's $5 trillion in a decade. What a waste. Healthcare in the USA is a total mess thanks to Government regulation.
 
Michael, are you arguing that all those countries above the red arrow have more freedom than the US? Seems that these socialist countries with Universal Healthcare results in healthier people with longer lifespans for considerably less cost. How do they do that? Does socialism afford more freedom that unregulated capitalism?
But perhaps you are willing to pay more to protect your freedom from those social contracts.:shrug:
England and the USA have the same life expectancies. We pay twice as much because the AMA has rigged the US healthcare system such that competition is not allowed.

In a free market, we'd probably STILL be as unhealthy as we are as most health issues are life style - but the price would be 1/100th. This means opening up the healthcare market to anyone who can non-fraudulently practice medicine. A GP needs experience on the job not 12 + 4 + 4 + 3 years education - most of which they will forget. I train doctors who get their MD at 24 (as an example). With competition insurance would come down in price along with everything else. Insurance would ONLY pay for doctors either certified or with enough expert experience to prove they were worth being paid - and had a large enough clientele that would demand their service. Over time competition would ensure high quality and low price - like the PC you're using.

Imagine if there were only two PC brands. Think about how crap Windows was/is without competition. WHY are there only two brands of medical certification? Why? In a free market there should be MANY types of medical doctor certification. That there's only two should tell you immediately something is rigged - and f*cked.

A second point is the USA is not Japan and is not a Scandinavian country. In Japan the housing projects haven't slummed-out nowhere near as bad as the USA (although they certainly are not great). Thanks to their government socializing everything in the early 80s (I had a Chinese tell me they used to say in China when they wanted to learn about Communism they go to Japan)and the fact Japan bailed out it's incompetent banks, is on QE12 - they are economically f*cked. YET, they don't have violent slums. Their cities are extremely safe. Children walk through the cities unattended - they're that safe. I don't even want to walk around many areas in our shit cities and I'm an adult!

We are not, and will never be, Japan or Norway or Germany etc... That said, when we had free markets - we were better in many ways.
 
Write4U

Notice where the Scandinavian countries are clustered. Most pay LESS than half what we do, they cover anyone for any basic health care need and, as I keep pointing out, they are about 50/50 Capitalist/Socialist. Beyond having the longest life expectancy, they also have the highest incomes and standards of living(average). They pay about 50% of their income above $50,000 in taxes, but they have the best outcomes on Earth, so who's to argue? Some things should be socialist in nature, some should be more capitalist, the right mix works much better than either alone.

Grumpy:cool:
Yeah, and they also have a Church/Religion Tax, they're also not as 'welfare' orientated as a matter of culture, they also are not multicultural. We are not one of the Scandinavian countries. They frown upon generational welfare - whereas it's a norm in many parts of the USA.

Also, they worked hard to de-socialize much of their economies in the early 90s and are now repeating the rewards.
 
I like a lively debate where pertinent information is shared and discussed. But this has become an exercise in futility. I am done here.
Time will tell the story now.

Be well Michael.
 
They also have excellent public education
Here we can agree. Children start school at 7 instead of 4 (in England they want them to start at 2!). In Australia is not uncommon to put infants aged 6 WEEKS into daycare to get back to work.

Thanks to the Federal Reserve corrupting our money, our entire society is perverted from what is normal and healthy - healthcare is just one example.

Everyone wants cheap high quality healthcare - the ONLY means for multicultural USA to reach that goal is a free-market. Again, I'm sure no one could imagine the hell-holes public housing has turned out to be IN THE USA. No one could have imagined Public Schools would graduate children with a 47% functional ILLITERACY rate. But this is what happened.

I'm sure you can't imagine day when Public Hospitals are so crap you'd rather take your chances on your own than entering one - but, this is what will happen in the USA if we have Universal Healthcare. I can promise you this much.
 
Michael

HEALTH CARE is not, never was and can never be a free market. If you are injured you have no opportunity to "shop around" for the best deal in care. The HEALTH INSURANCE corporations are free market, largely. That is what has led to our overspending. And that is why HEALTHCARE should be a socialist endeavor. HEALTH INSURANCE should not exist, it is a parasite on the suffering people.(Some words in these sentences have been highlighted for the slipperier folk who constantly conflate). Healthcare should be a national responsibility paid for by our common taxes, just like national defence, police, roads, sewers, water supplies, etc. Health care providers are entitled to make a living at doing their jobs(a very good living for the best doctors, nurses, etc.), they do not deserve a profit on top of that. There will be plenty of opportunities for profit in the health care supply markets, in the medical device trade and there will always be private hospitals and plastic surgeons for those with excess coin.

Again, I'm sure no one could imagine the hell-holes public housing has turned out to be IN THE USA.

It depends on if they were used to isolate and starve the populations(as we did with the Native Americans). Do you blame the Cherokee in Oklahoma for the poverty on their Reservation? If you don't give people a fair chance, they will likely fail, and often that was the goal of the whole thing. Dump and ignore is a Capitalist "faux" socialist tactic, not actual good socialist policy. Public housing in America differed from prisons only in the lack of fences. Race, nationality and social status have created lots of ghettos over the years, again the Scandinavians show how socialism is done right. If you are going to build public housing, you must also build a public town, with grocery stores, businesses, jobs, transportation systems, police, etc., you can not just create buckets to put the fish in until they stop flopping around and shut up.

Grumpy:cool:
 
I have no idea where your "Alaska" example comes from. I don't need to move to Alaska. I can live free from Government right here. And, I don't advocate for an Anarchy - but LIMITED government. The USA didn't have a general welfare tax until this century, it didn't have a federal reserve destroying our economy - literally poisoning it from the inside out. Americans didn't use regulations to regulate everything from taxis to toilet paper. This notion that the FDA inspects food is idiotic. Most food is never seen by the FDA, and when it is they call ahead to let the company know they're coming in for an inspection. Most people prepare good food because they WANT repeat business.

So you are not the Libertarian you claim to be. You like those government services you like to complain about. You like the safety of your food, roadways, workplace, etc. which is provided to you courtesy of that government you hate so much. You like using that “fiat” currency which is printed by the Federal Reserve and stored in your local bank. You like that security provided by our military and local police forces so you can sleep and walk around safely. You are all hat and no cowboy Michael.

Like it or not, the US Department of Agriculture does inspect your food. It has resident inspectors at meat processing facilities inspecting our food. The Food and Drug Administration sets food safety requirements for the intestate transportation of foods and drugs. The unpleasant fact for you is that the government provides a number of services to protect our food and keep it safe from bacterial and chemical hazards.

Americans didn’t just suddenly decide to regulate industry for the hell of it. They did it because what predated regulation, your Libertarian dream world, didn’t work. The fact that you ignore reality in order to justify your ideology speaks volumes.

And the US did have a general welfare tax, before this century. Social Security began back in 1935. That is the last century, not this century. If you don’t like our economy, don’t like the Federal Reserve, don’t like the services we receive from our government; then go to the wilds of Alaska where you can live out your Libertarian fantasies devoid of government intrusions.

I'm not the one that needs to move to Alaska - but you can. Why don't you move there? You can live there being all nice and safe with the Government regulating everything you do, spying on everything you do and selling bonds on your children.

Yes I can move to Alaska and one day I might. But I will not be moving there to avoid the Federal Reserve and using our currencies (i.e. Federal Reserve Notes). I like the services I receive from government. I like public roads. I like the fact that all of our children are guaranteed a basic level of education by our government. I like the surety given to me by food safety standards and government inspections of our food supplies. And I am not paranoid about the government spying on me. And I don’t need demagoguery to make sense of my ideology.

If you were serious about your ideology you would go to a place like the outback of Alaska where you could live out your Libertarian ideology free from government services and expenses and interference.

Oh, and the Fed has a stated goal of 2% inflation - and like a religion you just accept a loss of 75% across 70 years as an acceptable 'important role in our economy'. Go on Joe, explain why we need to destroy 2% of our purchasing power every year. Explain how that helps the poor that barely have any money and need to make each dime count to feed their family. This should be good. Explain how inflation helps the poor Joe.

This has been explained to you umpteen times before. But unfortunately, like a good fanatic, you don’t let little things like facts or reason get in the way of your ideology. With inflation, people have more money, prices go up, but incomes also go up. You are fond of screaming about the increase in prices but you ignore the fact incomes also go up. Unfortunately for you there is nothing wrong with a low level of inflation. It is a hedge against recession.

Take a look around princess - the rich are richer than ever, the State is spying on us, lying about wars and taxing the middle class hourly worker, not the rich banker. Life in the USA is by definition LESS prosperous. Anyone with an ounce of reality can see the Federal Reserve is taking on all the bad loans from the banks and sticking the American public with the bill.

All the people with blinders on and relentlessly chant ideological mantra can believe that, but that doesn’t make it true. The Federal Reserve is operating at a profit. Last year it returned almost 100 billion dollars in profit to the US Treasury. With every year that passes the Federal Reserve is becoming more profitable and sending billions more to the US Treasury.

Yeah the rich are richer, but not because of any special treatment by the Federal Reserve, but because of actions taken by Congress (i.e. fiscal policy). The Federal Reserve has nothing to do with fiscal policies. Congress increased taxes on the middle classes while simultaneously lowering taxes on the wealthiest among us. Congress restricted markets (e.g. pharmaceuticals) forcing the middle class into buying prescription drugs from one or two suppliers. Congress gave businesses tax credits for exporting American jobs…all at the behest of the people who fund your political ideology. Getting rid of government and turning all remaining power over the few, the wealthiest, and eliminating all government protections for the 98% of us (i.e. regulation) as you advocate does nothing for the American middle classes. In essence you and your ideology advocate going back to the time of the mega industrialists and robber barons, back to the days of sweat shops, rivers that spontaneously erupt into flames, rampant pollution, and unsafe food, products and workplaces. And most people can figure that out. That is why your ideology has and will remain a fringe ideology. It just doesn’t make sense. It lives in a fact and reason free world.
 
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So you are not the Libertarian you claim to be. You like those government services you like to complain about. You like the safety of your food, roadways, workplace, etc. which is provided to you courtesy of that government you hate so much. You like using that “fiat” currency which is printed by the Federal Reserve and stored in your local bank. You like that security provided by our military and local police forces so you can sleep and walk around in safely. You are all hat and no cowboy Michael.
Joe, you live in la la land.

All any citizen should expect of the US Federal Government is for it to do is what it was designed to do: Uphold the law and in times of war defend the country.

That's it.

Instead it breaks the law (patriot act), regulates every form of interaction there is between 'free' citizens - even marriage for Christ's sake, is the largest polluter in human history, taxes the worker for working, sells bonds on infants, makes up phoney wars to kill women and children and pretend like some rotted out douche-bag sitting in a safe comfy seat watching TV above the "Oval Office" is a f*cking Hero and "Leader", and bails out criminal Banking families while sticking the middle class with these crooks gambling debts.

But don't worry Joe, you get to leave your children a less prosperous, less free country than the one your generation was born into. Good for you "Democrats" you're winning the ideological battle against self-reliance, civil liberty and law. Yes, it's true, Libertarians only make up 0.3% of the voting public so we know the Public School does do one thing well. Enjoy your 'victory' - I'm going to laugh when the poor vote themselves your house and stocks when some Progressive Demagogue points the finger at you. When they cart your generation off to the Soylent Green factory - think of it as karma.



As for ObamaCare, as I stated, take a look at Public Housing slums, take a look at Public Schools where 47% of the graduating class are functionally illiterate - in 25 years THAT will be the State of Medicine. Right now, Statistically you have a 1 in 5 chance of being misdiagnosed resulting in a negative outcome and a 1 in 12 chance you would have been healthier not going to the Hospital. In 15 - 25 years, you're going to reap the rewards of using the State to provide you with Healthcare in the USA.
 
Yeah the rich are richer, but not because of any special treatment by the Federal Reserve, but because of actions taken by Congress (i.e. fiscal policy). The Federal Reserve has nothing to do with fiscal policies. Congress increased taxes on the middle classes while simultaneously lowering taxes on the wealthiest among us. Congress restricted markets (e.g. pharmaceuticals) forcing the middle class into buying prescription drugs from one or two suppliers. Congress gave businesses tax credits for exporting American jobs…all at the behest of the people who fund your political ideology. Getting rid of government and turning all remaining power over the few, the wealthiest, and eliminating all government protections for the 98% of us (i.e. regulation) as you advocate does nothing for the American middle classes. In essence you and your ideology advocate going back to the time of the mega industrialists and robber barons, back to the days of sweat shops, rivers that spontaneously erupt into flames, rampant pollution, and unsafe food, products and workplaces. And most people can figure that out. That is why your ideology has and will remain a fringe ideology. It just doesn’t make sense. It lives in a fact and reason free world.
DO you even read your own writing? The whole first half of this is how the State screws the middle class over and then suddenly you say "and you want to get rid of Government"

Yes Joe, that's right. Getting rid of Government isn't 'turning everything over to the wealthiest' - exactly the opposite, it's breaking their grip on the middle class. The wealthy USE the Government to make themselves wealthy.

Jesus, open your eyes. The rich just ran the biggest scam in history and the American public are too fat and too docile to know any better. Here the rich bailed themselves out to the tune of TRILLIONS and are getting richer by the day - all the while the poor are dying in the streets thanks TO Government bailing out the rich! And you claim we need MORE Government. Sorry to pop your bubble, but the LAST thing the poor need is more Government.

Like I said, the State is the new Religion.
 
Tach

HEALTH INSURANCE should not exist, it is a parasite on the suffering people.
That is patently false, it is the insurance company that negotiates the prices DOWN in YOUR favor. Have a look at your bills.

Given the history of non-coverage, faux coverage and dropped coverage, I call BS. Those checks Obamacare forced the insurance companies to refund to us are simply the tip of the overcharging the insurers have been doing. That and the present Republican antics virtually insures that Single Payer is coming sooner rather than later. Insurers provide no health care, in fact they do everything in their power NOT to pay for health care. They are unnecessary middlemen and leaches on society. Their profits prior to the ACA were OBSCENE, now they must spend at least 80% of the premiums on paying for health care(they have been REDUCED to only 20% "income"), eliminating them decreases health care costs 20% overnight. Medicare is the most cost efficient health system in the US, they give us a further savings and get the for profit motive out of the way and Medicare could negotiate much better than the insurers can(if the Republicans stop blocking that ability). If the Republicans succeed in causing Obamacare to fail(as the Kochs have payed them to do), Medicare for all is the next step and we need a new party, Democrats don't do so well left to their own devices.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Tach



Given the history of non-coverage, faux coverage and dropped coverage, I call BS. Those checks Obamacare forced the insurance companies to refund to us are simply the tip of the overcharging the insurers have been doing. That and the present Republican antics virtually insures that Single Payer is coming sooner rather than later. Insurers provide no health care, in fact they do everything in their power NOT to pay for health care. They are unnecessary middlemen and leaches on society. Their profits prior to the ACA were OBSCENE, now they must spend at least 80% of the premiums on paying for health care(they have been REDUCED to only 20% "income"), eliminating them decreases health care costs 20% overnight. Medicare is the most cost efficient health system in the US, they give us a further savings and get the for profit motive out of the way and Medicare could negotiate much better than the insurers can(if the Republicans stop blocking that ability). If the Republicans succeed in causing Obamacare to fail(as the Kochs have payed them to do), Medicare for all is the next step and we need a new party, Democrats don't do so well left to their own devices.
Grumpy:cool:

Don't blame the Insurance Companies Grumpy, they are just making a profit for their stockholders. You know, that self regulating Free Market system that allows competition from the little start-ups....:shrug:
 
DO you even read your own writing? The whole first half of this is how the State screws the middle class over and then suddenly you say "and you want to get rid of Government"

Unfortunately for you Michael I do, but my vision is not restricted by the blinders of ideology. Yeah, the middle class is being screwed. But the solution is not to hand more power over to those doing the screwing as you advocate and allow them to further deregulate and further screw the middle class. Government is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. Turning it over to evil or destroying it as you advocate is not the solution.

Yes Joe, that's right. Getting rid of Government isn't 'turning everything over to the wealthiest' - exactly the opposite, it's breaking their grip on the middle class. The wealthy USE the Government to make themselves wealthy.

What you don’t understand, what you seem incapable of understanding is that eliminating the government doesn’t foment individual liberty. In fact it does the exact opposite. We are social animals and where there are more than two individuals there will be political power. Eliminating government, eliminating regulation, just gives all the power to he who has the gold. It doesn’t eliminate political power as advocated by your ideology. Government, the collective will of the people as represented by their elected representatives, is the only thing standing between the middle class and the power of the wealthiest among us. As I said before, unfortunately for you we have centuries of history which shows you are wrong.

J
esus, open your eyes. The rich just ran the biggest scam in history and the American public are too fat and too docile to know any better. Here the rich bailed themselves out to the tune of TRILLIONS and are getting richer by the day - all the while the poor are dying in the streets thanks TO Government bailing out the rich! And you claim we need MORE Government. Sorry to pop your bubble, but the LAST thing the poor need is more Government.

Before you tell others to open their eyes you should open yours. Yeah the poor did so well back in the days of sweat shops, child labor, Pinkerton thugs, and rampant pollution. If you are so concerned with the poor, why do you want to take away their social safety nets (Medicare, Medicaid, Medicare, welfare, government funded education, etc.)? And as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, our government bailed everyone out. And if we would have had more regulation, and not less as you advocate, had we not deregulated the financial industry, that scam would not have occurred.

Like I said, the State is the new Religion.

LOL, only in your imagination Michael.
 
Write4U

I think we need two sane parties to navigate up the middle. The Stupid party has veered us dangerously close to the cliff on the right, but without sanity on their part the Spineless party will eventually grab the wheel and wrench it to the Left in over-reaction. But there is also a cliff on the left. When we finally realize that civilization REQUIRES us to care for everyone's basic needs(as other industrialized countries have done since WW2)without stifling the ambitions and creativity(and the financial rewards for same), when we actually follow our claimed respect for Jesus's philosophy as well as Keynesian economics(as the most successful industrialized countries have)and wrest control from the spoiled children of overly rich parents(one of which helped found the John Birch Society)and other billionaires, then we can claim to be a moral society(or at least it's a start).

You know, that self regulating Free Market system that allows competition from the little start-ups...

Yeah, all those mom and pop storefront insurance companies, they're like daisies in spring. Free rabbit's foot key fob.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Don't blame the Insurance Companies Grumpy, they are just making a profit for their stockholders. You know, that self regulating Free Market system that allows competition from the little start-ups....:shrug:
If you were being intellectually honest you'd have written that insurance has become a corrupted low quality and high cost business due to a highly State-regulated healthcare industry and is just another corrupt facet of our fiat currency driven poisoned monetary system.

The solution is a free-market society within which healthcare would be one industry and insurance one set of players in that market.
 
Government is a tool. It can be used for good or evil.
Government is the legal obligation to initiate of force against innocent people (see: War on Drugs, Transaction Tax on Labor, etc...). It can only be used immorally. To suggest one can use immoral action to create virtue is oxymoron.
 
Tach



Given the history of non-coverage, faux coverage and dropped coverage, I call BS.

So, you are not looking at your bills. The caregivers charge X, the insurance reduces the charge to 0.6X and you still refuse to see the fact that the insurance negotiated down the caregivers.


If the Republicans succeed in causing Obamacare to fail(as the Kochs have payed them to do), Medicare for all is the next step and we need a new party, Democrats don't do so well left to their own devices.

The republicans cannot do anything to make obamacare fail, obamacare is clearly failing on its own. This is a good lesson, you cannot force socialist ideas in the US.
 
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