Negativity - A Common Link for Religion

[PsychoticEpisode]

There isn't much good said about living life on this planet by our resident theists. In fact, negativity appears to be a common thread shared by theists worldwide. Non-theistic religions are not immune either. How many posts refer to this reality, this universe, this Earth as an awful place? There seems to be an unwillingness for many people to accept that what we have is all there is.

That said, it is only a short step to a religious approach (one complete with beliefs) to life. Take a look at this from NDS:

C'mon guys, we all know this world this fake and an illusion. There is another world/realm beyond this one. Look at all the near-death experiences and people's experiences on heavy psychedelics like DMT where they enter this other realm, if only for 5 minutes.

Now I'm not certain if the poster is saying this tongue-in-cheek or is serious, and I'm not trying to critique it, but you get the idea. I like NDS's statement if only for an example of what probably has reoccured several times over the millenia to jumpstart religion.

The theme that, life here is so terrible that there must be a better place, is common to this sub-forum. Its as if God, who is another product of negative thinking, called a time-out and sent us to stand in the corner facing the wall until He says its OK to leave.

It doesn't require a lot of brainpower to figure out what happens next. Since there is no known better place in this reality then it makes sense to invent one. Dreams, hallucinations, NDE's, and any number of unexplainable events tend to lend credence that another existence(s) much better than this one exists for all of us. Since we can't leave except to cease to exist here, then death and the afterlife were seen as the escape and destination respectively.

It is up to God and because that is the way it is viewed then it became necessary to please God if only to ensure our right of passage to the next world. It is amazing to think that even if this otherworld exists that there is absolutely no proof that it is better.

Before anyone gets their nose out of joint I agree that atheists can also be negative. However they're negativity seems to be more directed at the theistic religions. It is easy to see how a theist would consider the atheist's view that there is no proof of a better existence as being negative. To some extent it is but atheists aren't creating dreamworlds and again even that could seem negative to a theist.

There is an overwhelming pessimism in the world. It won't ever go until religion is proven wrong, and I don't think that is about to happen any time soon. Sorry about the negativity but maybe there is some hope at least in the real world.

 

[swivel]

Negativity seems to also drive the environmentalists, who try to distinguish themselves from the religious at all costs.

 

[lightgigantic]

There isn't much good said about living life on this planet by our resident theists. In fact, negativity appears to be a common thread shared by theists worldwide. Non-theistic religions are not immune either. How many posts refer to this reality, this universe, this Earth as an awful place? There seems to be an unwillingness for many people to accept that what we have is all there is.

we are by nature seeking the eternal amongst the impermanent, the strongest existing principle amongst the ephemeral .... meanwhile our molars rot.

Its not pessimism.

Its the actual state of things

That said, it is only a short step to a religious approach (one complete with beliefs) to life. Take a look at this from NDS:

C'mon guys, we all know this world this fake and an illusion. There is another world/realm beyond this one. Look at all the near-death experiences and people's experiences on heavy psychedelics like DMT where they enter this other realm, if only for 5 minutes.

Now I'm not certain if the poster is saying this tongue-in-cheek or is serious, and I'm not trying to critique it, but you get the idea. I like NDS's statement if only for an example of what probably has reoccured several times over the millenia to jumpstart religion.

The theme that, life here is so terrible that there must be a better place, is common to this sub-forum. Its as if God, who is another product of negative thinking, called a time-out and sent us to stand in the corner facing the wall until He says its OK to leave.

It doesn't require a lot of brainpower to figure out what happens next. Since there is no known better place in this reality then it makes sense to invent one. Dreams, hallucinations, NDE's, and any number of unexplainable events tend to lend credence that another existence(s) much better than this one exists for all of us. Since we can't leave except to cease to exist here, then death and the afterlife were seen as the escape and destination respectively.

or alternatively one can launch into application and get off the mental platform. Since this generally requires that one give up the notion that happiness exists in the material world more frequently than a stopped watch displays the right time, one may feel more comfortable on the mental platform

It is up to God and because that is the way it is viewed then it became necessary to please God if only to ensure our right of passage to the next world. It is amazing to think that even if this otherworld exists that there is absolutely no proof that it is better.

proof is determined by experience

experience is determined by application

defaulting on either of these simply lands one on the mental platform ("It could be like this .... " "perhaps its like that ...." etc etc)

Before anyone gets their nose out of joint I agree that atheists can also be negative. However they're negativity seems to be more directed at the theistic religions. It is easy to see how a theist would consider the atheist's view that there is no proof of a better existence as being negative. To some extent it is but atheists aren't creating dreamworlds and again even that could seem negative to a theist.

Geez

You just have to see the dreamworld come crashing down around them when the gravity of death, old age and disease pays a visit.

The irony of the mass advertising "There's probably no god so just enjoy life" is that the enjoyment on offer is something like the water on offer in the desert

There is an overwhelming pessimism in the world. It won't ever go until religion is proven wrong, and I don't think that is about to happen any time soon. Sorry about the negativity but maybe there is some hope at least in the real world.

If you think you can construct a functioning model of happiness in the medium of impermanence I think you will certainly need tons of hope

 

[lightgigantic]

Negativity seems to also drive the environmentalists, who try to distinguish themselves from the religious at all costs.

you don't see any connection between the destruction wreaked on the planet and a real need to be cautious of the future?

I guess you are still riding some sort of cocaine high from the eighties or something ....

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

LG...you wouldn't be what you are today without a worldview pessimism. You can't even comprehend that this universe is all you get. The world is so disturbing for you and others who share your negativity that it's only redeeming qualities are in the form of a prison or halfway house. A place to rehabilitate and prepare for some idyllic wonderland you've conjured up. It's a classic cop out and displays an inability to handle reality.

Please share any positive thoughts you have for this reality.

 

[lightgigantic]

LG...you wouldn't be what you are today without a worldview pessimism. You can't even comprehend that this universe is all you get. The world is so disturbing for you and others who share your negativity that it's only redeeming qualities are in the form of a prison or halfway house. A place to rehabilitate and prepare for some idyllic wonderland you've conjured up. It's a classic cop out and displays an inability to handle reality.

Philosophically speaking (even philosophically speaking without involving issues of god or whatever) , if you think you can attain happiness based on the material concept of life you are a fool.

If you disagree, feel free to discuss

Please share any positive thoughts you have for this reality.

If one accepts this world as the all in all the only position of happiness is simply the mitigation of suffering. Kind of like a drowning person feels happiness momentarily when their head is lifted out of the water.

 

[InfaredAlligator]

The diverse relgions that people practice are but fingers on the outstretched hand called faith.

 

[Hapsburg]

Not all religions are pessimistic or negative about things. I can't speak for the myriad of them, but in the very least, I can assure you that mine views the universe and existence as beautiful and good, and that natural events are an extension of this beauty, even if they affect us adversely.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Not all religions are pessimistic or negative about things. I can't speak for the myriad of them, but in the very least, I can assure you that mine views the universe and existence as beautiful and good, and that natural events are an extension of this beauty, even if they affect us adversely.

Why do you need a religion for that? What's next, make Apathy a religion? What's wrong with accepting the world as is?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Philosophically speaking (even philosophically speaking without involving issues of god or whatever) , if you think you can attain happiness based on the material concept of life you are a fool.

If you disagree, feel free to discuss

Why is your afterlife world non-materialistic? Have you ever consider why you would think that? I don't think there is any doubt that you have associated materialism with just about everything that's wrong in life. However, you can't even begin to wax philosophic about materialism without it actually influencing your overall demeanor first. IOW, something that you abhor is yourself. For Christ's sakes LG, I like you more than you like yourself. You're the ultimate reductionist.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why is your afterlife world non-materialistic?

Maybe now would be a good time to discuss what exactly is meant by the word "materialistic". What do you think it means?

Have you ever consider why you would think that?

sure
in fact it's probably the number one point of discussion in theistic circles

I don't think there is any doubt that you have associated materialism with just about everything that's wrong in life. However, you can't even begin to wax philosophic about materialism without it actually influencing your overall demeanor first. IOW, something that you abhor is yourself. For Christ's sakes LG, I like you more than you like yourself. You're the ultimate reductionist.

To be self demeaning is simply the opposite of being self inflating.
Both are based on the bodily concept of life and grant the same result (namely continued existence in the material world)

IOW if I am thinking "I am so ugly/repulsive/abhorrent/etc" that is practically the same as "I am so beautiful/charming/pleasant".

Materialism is characterized by being envious. So if we see an elegant house, we think "I wish I could live there", a powerful position, "I wish I could occupy it", a beautiful person, "I wish I could possess them" etc etc to whatever it may be. IOW if we see some opulence we desire to possess it (based on our material condition of life - eg, desiring as a man/woman, old/young, educated/illiterate, etc etc).

So when we encounter something that is infinitely opulent, we become literally infinitely envious. IOW unlike some powerful/beautiful person in the material world, god never stands to have his opulence diminish (so its not like we can entertain the standard enviousness we display in the material world, when we may not mind if some "jerk" gets into office because sooner or later they will get dragged down).

Accommodating our problem of "infinite enviousness" towards god is something that the material world is geared up to deal with.

Picturing oneself as remarkably talented or stupendously hopeless doesn't change a thing.

 

[Hapsburg]

Why do you need a religion for that? What's next, make Apathy a religion? What's wrong with accepting the world as is?

I don't understand the point of your question. Are you assuming that my religion is the cause of my beliefs?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Maybe now would be a good time to discuss what exactly is meant by the word "materialistic". What do you think it means?

Warning, warning ! Spider senses tingling, avoid confrontation. Too bad we don't listen to those little impulses all the time.

Lg, there is no way I can force myself to come in here and listen to all you know about the philosophy of materialism. No different than spouting off on you know about God. Philosophy is a branch of thinking. For you it is a gateway to some profound magical revelations. I see no reason to learn more about nothing.

Material, taken from the word matter. Need I say more? Yes such things as space, time, energy, forces etc. are not matter in the conventional sense. The same for imagination, thoughts and consciousness plus a host of other things you can't physically sense. That's it.

Aww, can I just go the strawman route on this one?

 

[lightgigantic]

Warning, warning ! Spider senses tingling, avoid confrontation. Too bad we don't listen to those little impulses all the time.

Lg, there is no way I can force myself to come in here and listen to all you know about the philosophy of materialism. No different than spouting off on you know about God. Philosophy is a branch of thinking. For you it is a gateway to some profound magical revelations. I see no reason to learn more about nothing.

philosophy is actually about separating the wheat from the chaff ... if one is satisfied with whatever horsebag is shoved on one's nose I can understand why one might be reluctant to approach the subject.

Material, taken from the word matter. Need I say more? Yes such things as space, time, energy, forces etc. are not matter in the conventional sense. The same for imagination, thoughts and consciousness plus a host of other things you can't physically sense. That's it.

So if someone accused you of being materialistic, would that mean that you stand to be neglecting issues of space, time, energy, forces, etc?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

philosophy is actually about separating the wheat from the chaff ... if one is satisfied with whatever horsebag is shoved on one's nose I can understand why one might be reluctant to approach the subject.

No amount of separating is going to change the fact that it is still wheat. Wheat that has been broken down into two of its simplest components. The components are real, they exist, I can hold them in my hand. It is not imaginary wheat, wheat from another realm or wheat whose composition is of something unheard of.

You are not satisfied with the horsebag? Well thank you very much, because you've just confirmed what I said earlier.... you don't like it here and can't find anything better. It's about as negative an approach to life on Earth as you can get. How do you personally get around it? I think it's pretty obvious.

So if someone accused you of being materialistic, would that mean that you stand to be neglecting issues of space, time, energy, forces, etc?

Matter has properties attached to them. Those properties are part of the real world. They are at work constantly, enabling you to exist and imagine, and are not a key to some external realm.

I'll address my negativity to those who feel the dream world is an actual place. Am I hurting anything by doing so? No, in fact I'm solidifying my acceptance of the world. You on the other hand have copped out. You're doing yourself and the world a disservice by perpetuating a faith in, and in some cases knowledge of unprovable facts.

 

[leopold]

In fact, negativity appears to be a common thread shared by theists worldwide.

is it any wonder?
all you have to do is take a gander at all the bullshit they endure on this board.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

is it any wonder?
all you have to do is take a gander at all the bullshit they endure on this board.

Referring to logic and reason as bullshit is part of the overall negative theistic stance. Theists can talk positively all day long about a world they have no proof of existing. When someone suggests that believing in such things as actual fact, it pushes logic & reasoning away(the one thing that separates us from the rest of life on this Earth).

 

[leopold]

Referring to logic and reason as bullshit is part of the overall negative theistic stance.

what "logic" tells you atoms become alive?
what "logic" tells you atoms develop a consciousness?
what evidence do you have that a "supernatural force" doesn't exist?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

what "logic" tells you atoms become alive?
what "logic" tells you atoms develop a consciousness?
what evidence do you have that a "supernatural force" doesn't exist?

Atoms are components of living things, a living thing has developed a consciuosness, what's your point?

I have no evidence that a supernatural force doesn't exist and neither have you that it does. Besides you're not getting it. The Supernatural force you're referring to is a result of people not being happy with their current existence, they want something better. So they dream it up, and as it stands today, there is no proof of a dream world existing despite many attempts to prove it with words.

 

[leopold]

Atoms are components of living things, a living thing has developed a consciuosness, what's your point?

that's it? that's your logic?

I have no evidence that a supernatural force doesn't exist and neither have you that it does.

i never said it does, but i'm curious how you can readily dismiss the possibility of its existence.

Besides you're not getting it. The Supernatural force you're referring to is a result of people not being happy with their current existence, they want something better. So they dream it up, and as it stands today, there is no proof of a dream world existing despite many attempts to prove it with words.

dream worlds? you want dream worlds?
prove to me that you exist.