My unanswered questions about Christ

joepistole said:
Thanks Cyperium, but there seems to have been a lot of confusion about how to construct the church and the core beliefs of the church shortly after the death of Christ. You have several different sects that were later judged to be heritical. There was even debate about the divinity of Christ. I believe the concept of the Holy Trinity was created and agreed upon at the first Council of Nicea which was more than three hundred years after the death of Christ. It just seems to me a somewhat messy begining...with heritics popping very quickly after the death of Christ...seems like it could have been avoided with better organization...not that I could do any better than God. He needs no lectures from me about organization! I have enough trouble getting out of bed in the morning, and he created the world in six days. But it is just a curious observation on my part.
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All three parts of the trinity is spoken of in the gospels, that Jesus and God is one and that God has holy spirit, it is the same holy spirit for Jesus and God.

So it is not made up, but conveniently called the Trinity, Jesus said that He and the Father (God) will be one, and we will be one in Jesus, thus a part of God, and we will know God as much as God knows us.

Jesus did warn us about the false teachings that will come, we have done as best we can I think, and I believe that the Bible is trustworthy.
 
BlueMoose said:
Shiva (destructor), sunset (Seth) / Vishnu (balancer) - the path sun travels, the sky / Brahma(birth giver) - sun rise.?.
Jesus ~ Sun.
The Father ~ Sun / The Holy Spirit ~ Sun Light / The Son ~ Sun rising again.
Something like that, altered trinity from other religion ?
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It's not clear why Vishnu is the path of the sun or brahma is the sun rise or why siva is the sunset, much less why jesus/father/holy spirit are too.
In short, it still doesn't make sense, length ways or breadth ways.
:confused:
 
A. Moron said:
How can John, Tom's Father, know something that John, Janes's husband, doesn't know? (such as, when someone will return to the earth)
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the analogy was a response to the question "Now you can explain how to divide 1 by 3 and get 1. Simple arithmetic."

If you have a slightly different question, it may require a slightly different analogy.
 
lightgigantic said:
the analogy was a response to the question "Now you can explain how to divide 1 by 3 and get 1. Simple arithmetic."

If you have a slightly different question, it may require a slightly different analogy.
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What would the analogy be for the question I posed above?
 
You are arguing that the trinity is one person (I think).

It just seems more plausible that Jesus is actually a different "person" than "God," with maybe even a different personality. If Jesus really did have free will, and if really could have sinned, then he must have been his own spiritual person, created by God and separate from God (first born?). Just like we are all separate, individual, spiritual units which can all go against God (like the angels can), then so was Jesus.

Plus, not even Jesus knows everything God knows.

So the new question is:

How can one person be three individual people?

I guess this is the point where Christianity and Hinduism veer off from one another in terms of angels and humans who have passed on retaining their individuality.
 
A. Moron said:
You are arguing that the trinity is one person (I think).

It just seems more plausible that Jesus is actually a different "person" than "God," with maybe even a different personality. If Jesus really did have free will, and if really could have sinned, then he must have been his own spiritual person, created by God and separate from God (first born?). Just like we are all separate, individual, spiritual units which can all go against God (like the angels can), then so was Jesus.

Plus, not even Jesus knows everything God knows.
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sure I would agree with all this

So the new question is:

How can one person be three individual people?
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they can't
but three people can operate out the authority of one person
eg

the king
the king's son
the king's ambassador

(if the king no longer holds the chips, being the son or the ambassador is not so significant)

I guess this is the point where Christianity and Hinduism veer off from one another in terms of angels and humans who have passed on retaining their individuality.
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Hinduism also carries the same individualistic terms.
 
lightgigantic said:
Hinduism also carries the same individualistic terms.
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Does it? I thought (I can't say I'm an expert by any means so I could be wrong) that in Hinduism an individual person/spirit/soul's ulimate goal is to achieve nirvana (or is that Buddhism?) where they are no longer an individual.

In Christianity, the ultimate state a person can achieve is to go to heaven with their retained individuality and serve God as a free individual spirit for eternity in heaven and even after Jesus returns.

So, to my knowledge, in Christianity one retains indivduality and accountability at their highest possible point of existence, and in Hinduism one doesn't retain their individuality at the highest point. That might be Buddhism though. What's the Hinduism belief again?
 
A. Moron said:
Does it? I thought (I can't say I'm an expert by any means so I could be wrong) that in Hinduism an individual person/spirit/soul's ulimate goal is to achieve nirvana (or is that Buddhism?) where they are no longer an individual.

In Christianity, the ultimate state a person can achieve is to go to heaven with their retained individuality and serve God as a free individual spirit for eternity in heaven and even after Jesus returns.

So, to my knowledge, in Christianity one retains indivduality and accountability at their highest possible point of existence, and in Hinduism one doesn't retain their individuality at the highest point. That might be Buddhism though. What's the Hinduism belief again?
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Hinduism casts a broad net
actually the name Hindu was a coined by muslims, who referred to everyone living over the (H)Sindu river as a (H)Sindu - kind of like referencing jews, christians and muslims as Jordanists (Jordan river)
Vedic (in reference to the vedas) is a more accurate word
some of the schools of vedic thought are very much similar to buddhism (advaita ), declaring that ultimately on emerges into a state of undifferentiated oneness, while others are more dualistic (Vaishnava), having ultimate distinctions between god and his potencies, even at the point of liberation/salvation.
 
lightgigantic said:
Hinduism casts a broad net
actually the name Hindu was a coined by muslims, who referred to everyone living over the (H)Sindu river as a (H)Sindu - kind of like referencing jews, christians and muslims as Jordanists (Jordan river)
Vedic (in reference to the vedas) is a more accurate word
some of the schools of vedic thought are very much similar to buddhism advaita, declaring that ultimately on emerges into a state of undifferentiated oneness, while others are more dualistic Vaishnava, having ultimate distinctions between god and his potencies, even at the point of liberation/salvation.
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So Vaishnava's believe everyone retains their individuality. Interesting, thanks for the clarification. I just read on the other thread that you are a follower of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
 
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joepistole said:
One of the questions that lurk deep within my mind is, if Jesus was the messiah who came to restore the Word of God, why did he not leave writings? Why did he not ensure that his words were written down? In the New Testament it speaks of him reading scripture, so I take it he could write. One of his apostles was a tax collector. I assume to be a tax collector one had to know how to read and write.
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That is a fair question and perhaps an easy question to answer.

Most of the writtings, if not all occured after Jesus death as an account to those that will come after. Jesus' work was not to leave an account but to teach and guide the Jews toward God. He constantly refered to them as "thrown about like sheep without a sheppard."

1) Organization
Jesus taught them and organized them to preach and teach beyond the Jewish borders. The Jews previous convenant with God made them ill equiped with dealing with the pagan nations. The Old Covenant's purpose was to safeguard true religion, shield against external influence and invasion. The New Covenant would transform the Jews to accept an external rule or headship of the nations such as Rome who would desolate and disperse them throughout out the world.

2) God's High Priest
As God's High Priest he righted the decades of decadent behavior that had become prelevant after Judea and Israel split into seperate kingdoms. He lived only three years after his baptism and scriptures show only at his baptism was he made fully aware of who he was and the task he would fulfill. In other words he bore witness to truth.

3) To be Tested and Perfected.
The phrase no taxation without representation comes to mind. God saw fit to install a propper represenative as ruler over the Earth. In accordance with this Jesus lived a human life, suffering all that we as imperfect humans suffer. Knowing what trials we endure thus makes him the perfect judge.

4)The Ransom Sacrifice.
Considering the time that Jesus took with counciling, organizing and teaching, and from what we can tell knowing when a how he would die, it's no wonder the responsibility of recording the events were delegated to his apostles. The varied perpectives give us a well rounded insight of his brief ministry on Earth.




It is Jesus' actions of teaching which was one of his most important duties. The apostle's accounts differ from perspective as any two accounts of any two witnesses would. One person would notice details another did not. Luke, a physican noticed certain things that the others didn't.

I hope that's satisfactory.
 
Saquist said:
That is a fair question and perhaps an easy question to answer.

Most of the writtings, if not all occured after Jesus death as an account to those that will come after. Jesus' work was not to leave an account but to teach and guide the Jews toward God. He constantly refered to them as "thrown about like sheep without a sheppard."

1) Organization
Jesus taught them and organized them to preach and teach beyond the Jewish borders. The Jews previous convenant with God made them ill equiped with dealing with the pagan nations. The Old Covenant's purpose was to safeguard true religion, shield against external influence and invasion. The New Covenant would transform the Jews to accept an external rule or headship of the nations such as Rome who would desolate and disperse them throughout out the world.

2) God's High Priest
As God's High Priest he righted the decades of decadent behavior that had become prelevant after Judea and Israel split into seperate kingdoms. He lived only three years after his baptism and scriptures show only at his baptism was he made fully aware of who he was and the task he would fulfill. In other words he bore witness to truth.

3) To be Tested and Perfected.
The phrase no taxation without representation comes to mind. God saw fit to install a propper represenative as ruler over the Earth. In accordance with this Jesus lived a human life, suffering all that we as imperfect humans suffer. Knowing what trials we endure thus makes him the perfect judge.

4)The Ransom Sacrifice.
Considering the time that Jesus took with counciling, organizing and teaching, and from what we can tell knowing when a how he would die, it's no wonder the responsibility of recording the events were delegated to his apostles. The varied perpectives give us a well rounded insight of his brief ministry on Earth.




It is Jesus' actions of teaching which was one of his most important duties. The apostle's accounts differ from perspective as any two accounts of any two witnesses would. One person would notice details another did not. Luke, a physican noticed certain things that the others didn't.

I hope that's satisfactory.
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Why complicate matters. Jesus was illiterate. Carpenters' sons got no education in those days. I think that's a more satisfactory answer. Never overlook the obvious.
 
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lightgigantic said:
It's not clear why Vishnu is the path of the sun or brahma is the sun rise or why siva is the sunset, much less why jesus/father/holy spirit are too.
In short, it still doesn't make sense, length ways or breadth ways.
:confused:
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-Yes I know, Lets say what God is exactly, but wait...my perception of things
cant be same as yours or this "debate" is absurdy (since we would agree on God)
-The God is everything there is and everything there isnt (omnipotent) including me and you, right ?
-Its about perpection of things, The God are same to us, our of perception what The God is makes all the confusion, in our native religion/mythology there is trinity of God too, but wait, there is many Gods in our religion, but hey, what if they are just reflections of the One The God like in Hinduism ?
-Tapio is our God of the Forest, it reflects Gods will in that form, Ilmatar was
(Brahma) was our Creator Mother, The East Wind (Holy Spirit/Vishnu?) did impregnate Her and then came Wäinämöinen (Horus/Jesus?), He played hes kannel (Finnish Sither) made out of the jaw bones of pike the fish (piscies?) so beautifully that he could sing/play you to death and had all the wisdom in the world (Venus/Lucifer/Angel of Light/The Duality?) and there was pole that hold the sky on its place (every star in sky did cycle the North Star = The Pole Star) and there was Sampo, the machine that blacksmith Ilmarinen (ilma=air) had made, which did give all the needs (The Sun in the sky/air) ~ The Sampo, the three first letters when announced sounds the same and that doesnt happen often, Finnish language may be the most complex language in the world and very different from others when announcing letters.

[-Maybe you do not agree me on the matter ?]
[-Ehkä olet eri mieltä asiasta ?]
[-two same sentences]
[-Ehkä olet(=you are, olit=you were, on=is)
eri (different, ~ erilainen, eriävä,eroava) mieltä (mieli=mind, mielelle=to mind, mielestä=from mind and so on...) asiasta (asia=thing/matter, asioista=from things, asioihin=to things)
Finnish language has a 15 case :D]

The Sampo/The Sun is the provider of welth and was robbed by Louhi~Pohjan Akka~The Hostess of the North) whom seeing to be the evil dark north (underworld, hell) but then Wäinämöinen did go to Dark North and did take The Sampo back ~ winter solstice and Suns death and resurrection.
-In the spring when planting seeds to there was custom to sing Sampo poetry, praising The Sun and the wonder of birth in nature.
-And here we are again, astrology/astronomy as an allegory.
-If I will take Kalevala as the Holy Word it wouldnt differ none from the case that I would choose The Bible and The Jesus Christ, why not to choose Wäinämöinen whom taked back the Sampo from the darkness ?
-Its the same altered story anyway. I think I will resign from my Christian Chruch and study my Kalevala :) But, uh, then I would burn in hell like pagans does, oh shaaaaait.
-Oh the irony, why is my Religion called a myth and a paganism ? At least it doesnt offer just The Sun to be a God LOL
-In our tale the world is born from broken bird egg. hmmmmm, well, why not.
-Understanding the nature of The God is hard, I would guess impossible,
but understanding religions is easy, its the same big soup everybody putting their own spices in but if only they could eat it at peace LOL

-Did this make any sense ?
 
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Where are George Bush's writings? Barrack Obama's writings? Leaders seem to preach and not write. Jesus' form of communication was speaking - not writing. Plus, the illiterate masses he was speaking to weren't reading the newspapers - let alone Jesus pamphlets. Let's use some common sense here, people.
 
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