My religious philosophy, based completely on logic:

Originally posted by inspector
I am sorry, but this is a generalization or 'blanketed question', therefore I cannont reply affirmatively or negatively. I would require a specific example or passage before I can answer your question.

Saying that begat necessarily indicates a direct biological relationship is a generalization? How so? I thought it was pretty clear myself - in fact, I'd say begat is one of the least vague words used in the entire bible! :confused:

Well then, I can already guess your answer to my next question, but here goes:

Does the word begat carry less weight in indicating a direct biological relationship than the phrase son of in the Matthew and Luke genealogies where the parentage of Salathiel is concerned? In other words, can you honestly say that Neri is the true biological father of Salathiel, even though his name only appears once in the entire bible (see Luke 3:27, which vaguely assigns Salathiel as the "son of" Neri), while Jechonias is mentioned at least twice as the father of Salathiel (see 1 Chronicles 3:17 & Matthew 1:12), and Matthew specifically uses the word begat?
 
Interesting question, or should I say destinction. I don't know where you're heading, but I'd like to know what the Greek/Hebrew words were that were used, since usually they have more subjective meanings than the English.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son [or [ son]; also in verse 12 ]; today I have become your Father. [Or [have begotten you] ]
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 13:33
...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: " 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.[ 13:33 Or have begotten you] '[ 13:33 Psalm 2:7]

These passages seem to indicate both variations were used - in the biological and the general sense. Begotten is a more active word, indicating a purpose of intent, while son of seems more incidental. In the NIV, "son of" is more predominant.

I got this from The Bible gateway
In the period between David and Jesus only two names are common in the lists: Shealtiel and Zerubbabel. Some sixty names in Luke's list are not in Matthew's. The most significant differences are that David's descendant in Matthew's list is Solomon, while Luke mentions Nathan; and Jesus' grandfather in Matthew's list is Jacob, while in Luke it is Heli (Stein 1992:141). The difference after David helps to explain the vast variation in names after that point.

There is no certain explanation for these differences. Some argue that there is no way to bring the two accounts together (L. T. Johnson 1991:72). But various explanations have been proposed. (1) A popular explanation is that Matthew gives Joseph's genealogy while Luke gives Mary's, especially given his concern for Mary in Luke 2 and the remark about Jesus' being thought to be Joseph's son in Luke 3:23. The problem with this is that a genealogy based entirely on a female line of descent would be rather unprecedented, especially for establishing a regal claim to promises associated with David. Furthermore, Luke 1:27 appears to tie Jesus' Davidic connection to Joseph. (2) Other variations argue for two ways to trace Joseph's line. Some speculate that Matthew has the natural line and Luke the royal line. Others suggest the reverse: Luke has the physical line while Matthew has the royal line. A third option suggests that Matthew gives the physical line while Luke gives the legal and "physical" line, with the physical contact being a sister who remarries and bears a child after a childless marriage. All these options appeal to levirate marriage (Deut 25:5-10) as the key at some point in the list, in the vicinity of the grandfathers--so one parent would be the physical progenitor, but the other parent, who died childless, had his name and line carried on through the birth after the levirate marriage. (3) Still a final option suggests that Mary, having no brothers, is an heiress to Heli (also spelled Eli in some translations). Heli adopted Joseph as son, as in other cases where a man had no biological son (Num 32:41; Ezra 2:61; Neh 7:63). So Luke's list reflects adoption (Nolland 1990:170-72). Luke's line may be the legal one because of the curse of Jeconiah (Jer 22:30), when he was cast out of the promised line (though Matthew does mention him). (A modern illustration of how a regal line can take a detour is the Duke of Windsor, who renounced all claim to the throne for himself and his descendants.)

Every explanation requires a conjecture that we cannot establish, so which approach might be right is uncertain. Regardless of which option is chosen, what is clear is the list's intention. Jesus has a claim to the throne through David and is related to all humankind through Adam. He has the proper roots to be God's promised one. He has the right heritage to inherit this ministry of deliverance. His roots extend to David, Abraham and Adam. God has carefully designed his plan. There are no historical surprises in Jesus. Ultimately all humanity is a unit, and Jesus is concerned with more than deliverance of the tiny, elect nation of Israel. With him comes realization of the Old Testament hope for that nation, but bound up in him also is the fate of all people.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Interesting question, or should I say destinction. I don't know where you're heading, but I'd like to know what the Greek/Hebrew words were that were used, since usually they have more subjective meanings than the English.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son [or [ son]; also in verse 12 ]; today I have become your Father. [Or [have begotten you] ]
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Acts 13:33
...he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: " 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.[ 13:33 Or have begotten you] '[ 13:33 Psalm 2:7]

These passages seem to indicate both variations were used - in the biological and the general sense. Begotten is a more active word, indicating a purpose of intent, while son of seems more incidental. In the NIV, "son of" is more predominant.
[/URL]

As you say, begat indicates a more active role, while son of might indicate a more incidental role, particularly when it would seem to contradict another passage where the word begat was used. Here is the Greek word which was translated to begat in the Matthew genealogy:

1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}

from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v

AV - begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1,
be delivered 1, misc 3; 97

1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his
way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work


What I'm getting at is that if you accept that Jechonias begat Salathiel when you read Matthew's genealogy, then you must accept that he still begat Salathiel when you read Luke's genealogy, even though it states in Luke that Salathiel is the son of Neri. There cannot be two biological fathers for one man, can there? So if you are willing to be honest, you must accept that Jechonias' name should appear in both genealogies as the father of Salathiel. So, according to the New Testament Jesus was a descendant of Jechonias, both legally and biologically, and therefore could not inherit the throne of David - and therefore could not have been the Jewish Messiah!
 
"There cannot be two biological fathers for one man, can there?"
--------------------------------------

There isn't. Nehushta, you are really reaching, now. You apparently have no sincere desire to learn about Christianity, but rather, are simply attempting to stir up dissension. However, for every piece of misinformation you acquire from infidels.org or anywhere for that matter, there exists a refutation for.

Anyway, the probable explanation of the apparent discrepancy is that Salathiel was the son of Neri, the descendant of Nathan, and thus, heir to the throne of David on the death of Jeconiah (Compare Jeremiah 22:30).

><>
 
Using your conclusion to prove the premises, inspector?

Originally posted by inspector
There isn't. Nehushta, you are really reaching, now. You apparently have no sincere desire to learn about Christianity, but rather, are simply attempting to stir up dissension. However, for every piece of misinformation you acquire from infidels.org or anywhere for that matter, there exists a refutation for.

Anyway, the probable explanation of the apparent discrepancy is that Salathiel was the son of Neri, the descendant of Nathan, and thus, heir to the throne of David on the death of Jeconiah (Compare Jeremiah 22:30).><>

I'm reaching? You wish to change the meaning of the word begat to fit your religious beliefs about Jesus, but I'm the one who's being insincere? By the way, I didn't get this from infidels.org - I got it from reading the bible, along with the various commentaries available at blueletterbible.org!
 
Originally posted by inspector
Please present these 'references' you have, from that time period, that refutes the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There are no historical refutations to the resurrection that I know of. But neither are there any non-Biblical documents to support it. I do not consider a single, biased source to be enough evidence to support such unusual claims. If you do then I would ask why you do not believe in the Greek Gods, Buddha, Mohammed, etc.

BTW, get ready. I have many, many more valid, historical, archaeological discoveries which verify the content of both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
We're covering this in the God does exist. thread. No need to cover it in two. I will, however, repeat the important point; there is no outside verification for any miraculous event recorded in the Bible.

I also have original eyewitness testimony for the existence of Jesus Christ. Just remember, in an above post, you said, 'Now personally, I believe that Jesus or someone very like him existed.'
No, you do not have any eyewitness testimony. Once again, we are addressing this topic elsewhere.

~Raithere
 
Yes, exactly. I begin with the premise that the Bible is God's Word revealed to us. It is proven to be historically accurate and archaeologically consistent. It is YOU who is questioning the authenticity of the Bible, not me. However, I will continue to anwer any questions you have regarding the contents and text of the Bible. BTW, don't be so defensive. ;)

><>
 
Jeremiah 22
30 This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

Men cannot give birth. Jesus was born from Mary, who did not come from Jeconiah's (Jehoiachin) "forbidden" line. Joseph had no biological right to Jesus, since he was not a biological father - he was "childless". But Joseph was the legal father, and the father appointed by God. Thus the proper royal lineage (of God) overtook the earthly royalty of David, gave it it's true meaning. That is why we are all sons of David, spiritually adopted by Jesus, just like Jesus was legally and biologically "adopted" by Joseph.

In a way you can say the curse was lifted by God, but humanwise the prophesy was left inviolate. For all we know Jeconiah died, and Shealtiel was legally adopted by Neli, also descendent from David.
 
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"I do not consider a single, biased source to be enough evidence to support such unusual claims."
-------------------------------------------

Simply because YOU do not consider the Bible to be sufficient evidence does not invalidate it.




"If you do then I would ask why you do not believe in the Greek Gods, Buddha, Mohammed, etc."
--------------------------------------------

Because the Bible does not acknowledge greek gods, buddha, mohammed, etc. See Isaiah 44:6, 44:8.




"No, you do not have any eyewitness testimony. Once again, we are addressing this topic elsewhere."
---------------------------------------------

And we will address it here, also. Several writers of the New Testament walked with Jesus, saw Jesus perform miracles, etc. The apostles Peter, John, and others to name a couple. These are the authors of books in the New Testament. This is DIRECT eyewitness testimony. Please review the definition of eyewitness testimony. Once again, just because you dismiss parts of the Bible, does not neccessarily make it any less true.

><>
 
Originally posted by inspector
Yes, exactly. I begin with the premise that the Bible is God's Word revealed to us.
And therein lies the problem. What is the foundation for your premise?

It is proven to be historically accurate and archaeologically consistent.
No, it is not entirely accurate. There is no evidence supporting a global flood, for instance. The town of Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day. And there is not a single piece of substantiating evidence that a single miracle ever occurred.

It is YOU who is questioning the authenticity of the Bible, not me.
Obviously.

BTW, don't be so defensive
I'm not. :D Personally, I could care less what you believe. But we're debating certain issues. I know my manner of writing sometimes comes off as curt but I'm in no way upset... I'm just having fun.

Simply because YOU do not consider the Bible to be sufficient evidence does not invalidate it.
And just because you believe it to be entirely true does not validate it. So where does that leave us?

Because the Bible does not acknowledge greek gods, buddha, mohammed, etc. See Isaiah 44:6, 44:8.
But there is just as much 'evidence' for these figures as there is for Jesus. In some cases there is more. For instance Mohammed is extremely well documented by non-religious historical sources. Sounds to me as if your disbelief based purely in bias. In your own preconceptions. You're not interested in the truth but only interested in validating your existing beliefs.

And we will address it here, also.
No, I won't. You can talk to yourself. One place or the other, I don't care. But it's simply stupid to address the same exact thing in more than one post at the same time.

Several writers of the New Testament walked with Jesus, saw Jesus perform miracles, etc. The apostles Peter, John, and others to name a couple. These are the authors of books in the New Testament. This is DIRECT eyewitness testimony.
There is nothing to prove that the NT gospels were written by these people. In fact, most of the earliest documentation was written well after their deaths. What proof do you have that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew?

~Raithere
 
"What proof do you have that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew?"
------------------------------

What proof do you have that he didn't write it? Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis around AD 120-140, recorded that "Matthew composed the writings in the Hebrew dialect [Aramaic] and everyone translated them as he was able." Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons towards the close of the second century and described as a hearer of the apostle John, asserted that this original document was written by Matthew while Peter and Paul were founding the church in Rome (the mid-sixties). There is no other name that surfaces in the early church as a possible author. It would be hard to explain how, within a period of 60 or 80 years, the name of the true author of such a significant book could have been lost and a fictitious name substituted. The earliest tradition cannot be lightly set aside.

The bottom line is this. I have lots of evidence supporting the existence of God and the validity of the Bible. You choose to deny the evidence, and place your FAITH in naturalistic explanations of the universe. I choose God.







"The town of Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day."
-------------------------------

Matthew 2:22-23
But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, and he went and lived in a town called NAZARETH.

.........and there are many more if needed.







"And there is not a single piece of substantiating evidence that a single miracle ever occurred."
----------------------------------

Once again, eyewitness testimony.......denying it don't make it any less true.








"And just because you believe it to be entirely true does not validate it. So where does that leave us?"
------------------------------------

Regarding this conversation..........simply a stalemate. Regarding salvation.........well you figure it out.








"There is nothing to prove that the NT gospels were written by these people."
----------------------------------------

Do you feel the same way about ALL historical documents, or only those that challenge your naturalistic beliefs and intellectual fallacies? Do you question the authenticity of the Declaration of Independence and it's authors, also? Your logic is flawed.

><>
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Jeremiah 22
30 This is what the LORD says:
"Record this man as if childless,
a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David
or rule anymore in Judah."

Men cannot give birth. Jesus was born from Mary, who did not come from Jeconiah's (Jehoiachin) "forbidden" line. Joseph had no biological right to Jesus, since he was not a biological father - he was "childless". But Joseph was the legal father, and the father appointed by God. Thus the proper royal lineage (of God) overtook the earthly royalty of David, gave it it's true meaning. That is why we are all sons of David, spiritually adopted by Jesus, just like Jesus was legally and biologically "adopted" by Joseph.

In a way you can say the curse was lifted by God, but humanwise the prophesy was left inviolate. For all we know Jeconiah died, and Shealtiel was legally adopted by Neli, also descendent from David.

It seems that you choose to be blind to the fact that a man can only have one biological father, and Matthew clearly named Jechonias as Salathiel's father. And he used the word begat - what could be clearer than that? Are you trying to say a man's biological father changes depending on which of his decendants you're talking about? Or are you overlooking the fact that Salathiel's name appears in both genealogies? And it doesn't matter if Salathiel was adopted by Neri or not - he is still is from the seed of Jechonias, and therefore none of his descendants can inherit the throne of David!
 
Nehushta, I mean no offense, but I addressed the issue of Salathiel earlier. If you do not understand the basic literary precedents and biblical sophistication, there are many books that cover these topics. However, I believe you simply do not accept the answers given to you because they clash with your presuppositions.

><>
 
Originally posted by inspector
What proof do you have that he didn't write it? Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis around AD 120-140, recorded that "Matthew composed the writings in the Hebrew dialect [Aramaic] and everyone translated them as he was able."
And how reliable is that?

But I suspect you haven’t quite given a full enough picture of Papias’ so-called testimony. First of all, you fail to point out that we have no surviving writings of Papias. We rely for what he said on Eusebius, a fourth century historian of the Church. Perhaps Eusebius is quoting Papias correctly, but even so, what can we glean from that quotation? It’s pretty clear that Papias is himself passing on secondhand reports about these documents and their reputed authors. He says that his information about "Mark" comes from "the elder" who, as you acknowledge, may or may not be identifiable with the apostle John. And although Papias is not explicit, the same is likely true for the document he says was compiled by "Matthew," that he got his information about this one, too, from the elder. The fact that Papias said nothing himself to confirm what the elder told him about the nature of these documents, tells us that he probably didn’t possess copies of them. In fact, we can be quite certain of this, since Eusebius and other later commentators who quote from his writings are silent about him discussing anything from the "Mark" and "Matthew" he mentions.
CHALLENGING THE VERDICT - A Cross-Examination of Lee Strobel’s The Case For Christ by Earl Doherty

The bottom line is this. I have lots of evidence supporting the existence of God and the validity of the Bible. You choose to deny the evidence, and place your FAITH in naturalistic explanations of the universe. I choose God.
The bottom line is this: What you choose to call evidence does not meet my criteria. I find your evidence, thus far, unconvincing.

Matthew 2:22-23
But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, and he went and lived in a town called NAZARETH.
So? I'm waiting for your outside source.

Once again, eyewitness testimony.......denying it don't make it any less true.
Then show me an eyewitness testimony and prove to me that it is genuine.

Do you feel the same way about ALL historical documents, or only those that challenge your naturalistic beliefs and intellectual fallacies? Do you question the authenticity of the Declaration of Independence and it's authors, also?
Yes, I do feel this way about all historical documents. Of course, regarding the Declaration of Independence we have the original document written and signed by the men who wrote it. We have an unbroken historical record of it's existence. If we did not have the original and it's history... if 'all of a sudden, 100 years after it was said to be written, 'discovered' a copy. Then, no, I probably would not believe it was entirely true. Not without other substantiating evidence. And if the copy had numerous discrepancies to other existent copies, my belief in it's accuracy would be further diminished. And if the IoD contained fantastic claims such as Jefferson raising the dead and Washington crossing the Delaware by walking on water I would probably not believe those claims at all.

Your logic is flawed.
There is nothing wrong with my logic, friend.

Here's an interesting article regarding the historical accuracy of the OT:
http://college4.nytimes.com/guests/articles/2002/03/09/906776.xml

~Raithere
 
"There is nothing wrong with my logic, friend."
---------------------------------

I beg to differ, friend.



"What you choose to call evidence does not meet my criteria."
----------------------------------

Herein lies the problem. Evidence does not have to meet YOUR criteria to be considered as evidence. As a self-described logical person, you should clearly see this. Your method of examination is not objective, but instead, biased and tainted with prejudice.



"Then show me an eyewitness testimony and prove to me that it is genuine."
-----------------------------------

Gospel of John, both books of the apostle Peter, etc.



"Yes, I do feel this way about all historical documents."
-----------------------------------

This is due to your contrarian nature. I am willing to bet you have a problem with logical absolutes, also, since you like to dwell in the house of subjectivity.


BTW, take a minute to review the following archaeological evidence supporting the existence of Jesus, then proceed to explain it away with subjective and circular reasoning. Your presuppositions are waiting.

The Archo Volume
The Archo Volume is a 245 page book that contains letters between Pilate and Caesar; Valleus's notes to Pilate about the arrest trial and crucifixion of Jesus; Gamaliel's interviews with Joseph and Mary, and others about Jesus; Jonathan's interviews with some Bethlehem shepherds; and more. All of these are NON-BIBLICAL documents which testify about the existence of Jesus. Let me list the table of contents.

Chapter 1) How these records were discovered.
Chapter 2) A short sketch of the Talmuds.
Chapter 3) Constantine's letter in regard to having fifty copies of the Scriptures written and bound.
Chapter 4) Jonathan's interview with Bethlehem shepherds; letter of Melker, Priest of the Synagogue at Bethlehem.
Chapter 5) Gamaliel's interview with Joseph and Mary and others concerning Jesus.
Chapter 6) Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrin concerning the execution of Jesus.
Chapter 7) Report of Caiaphas to the Sanhedrin concerning the resurrection of Jesus.
Chapter 8) Pilate's report to Caesar of the arrest, trial, and crucifixion of Jesus.
Chapter 9) Herod's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to the execution of John the Baptist.
Chapter 10) Herod's defense before the Roman Senate in regard to his conduct at Bethlehem

[Archo pg 1-245].


><>
 
Originally posted by inspector
Nehushta, I mean no offense, but I addressed the issue of Salathiel earlier. If you do not understand the basic literary precedents and biblical sophistication, there are many books that cover these topics. However, I believe you simply do not accept the answers given to you because they clash with your presuppositions.

><>

Inspector, I mean no offense, but ditto. I'm looking at exactly what the bible says - you are the one who has to redefine words to make it fit your beliefs. So where does that leave us?
 
"So where does that leave us?"
-------------------------------------

Textually, I presume we are at a stalemate. However, regarding salvation, it would be checkmate. Keep studying. BTW, thanks for the dialogue. You offer some excellent questions and force me to refresh my studies, also.

><>
 
Originally posted by inspector
"So where does that leave us?"
-------------------------------------

Textually, I presume we are at a stalemate.

I would have been astonished if a Christian had actually considered any of my points as possibly having merit.

However, regarding salvation, it would be checkmate. Keep studying.

Are you sure about that, inspector? Have you ever considered that you might be the one traveling the broad path that leads to the wide gate? After all, 1/3 of the world's population is traveling that path with you. I seriously doubt that there is a broader path to be found.

BTW, thanks for the dialogue. You offer some excellent questions and force me to refresh my studies, also.

It has been my pleasure - and thank you! :)
 
Thank you, everybody, for hijacking my thread.

Some mod, please close this. I think there are enough threads discussing the same topic.
 
Originally posted by inspector
I beg to differ, friend.
Then please be so kind as to point out my false premises and logical fallacies.

Herein lies the problem. Evidence does not have to meet YOUR criteria to be considered as evidence. As a self-described logical person, you should clearly see this. Your method of examination is not objective, but instead, biased and tainted with prejudice.
My criteria are logic, physical evidence, critical analysis, a comparison of expert opinions, and so on. I take evidence as it comes and addess it skeptically. Your assumption is quite absurd for if I addressed evidence and argument in the manner you suggest I would still be a Christian.

Gospel of John, both books of the apostle Peter, etc.
Prove that these are genuine and without errors or additions.

This is due to your contrarian nature.
You're not even close to discerning my nature.

I am willing to bet you have a problem with logical absolutes, also, since you like to dwell in the house of subjectivity.
Where the hell did you get that idea? If anything, I tend too much towards objectivity.

BTW, take a minute to review the following archaeological evidence supporting the existence of Jesus, then proceed to explain it away with subjective and circular reasoning. Your presuppositions are waiting.
Really, I wonder who you are talking to because I have evinced none of the attitudes you attribute to me.

The Archo Volume
Please. First of all the Archko volume is not archaeological evidence, it is a work written by Rev. Mahan. Mahan supposedly researched thousands of volumes in Rome and Constantinople in a span of two months with only two assistants in 1883. A 'trip' for which there is no corroborating evidence for not to mention the amount of labor they supposedly completed in such a brief span. The chief librarian in St. Sophia in Constantinople had no recollection of Mahan nor his assistants nor any of the manuscripts that Mahan supposedly consulted. Mahan claimed to have conversed with a Vatican librarian, Father Freelinhusen, in Rome... however, Rome has no record of a Father Freelinhusen at all. In fact, no corroboration indicates Mahan traveled any further than Rome Illinois from where he sent his correspondence. Additionally, it has been noted that several pages copied verbatim from Ben Hur... of course after the plagiarized passages were noted they were removed from subsequent printings.

Hardly, what I would deem a reliable source.

~Raithere
 
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