My observation: atheists are anti-creativity

S.A.M. said:
So whats an example of atheist art? Like the temples in India or the mosques in Syria or the churches across Europe?
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You have a very narrow view of art. How about painting, writing, the cinema, stage plays, the ballet and so on ?

Atheists don't build temples because ,as we keep telling you , we are not a homogenous group whereas you insist atheism is a belief. Why would we build temples to tooth fairies ?
 
SAM said:
So whats an example of atheist art? Like the temples in India or the mosques in Syria or the churches across Europe?
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Among many other things, some of those temples etc.

Architects build for clients, and the money talks. It has always been quite common - as in America now - for the big money to be in religious buildings, religious art, etc.

You might look at music, for example, and conclude from Western classical history that theism was once necessary for musical creativity. But then you find the themes were from "folk music", the instruments and conventions predated the religion involved, the only source of regular income for a musician was the church, and the penalty for declared atheism was severe.
 
Myles said:
You have a very narrow view of art. How about painting, writing, the cinema, stage plays, the ballet and so on ?

Atheists don't build temples because ,as we keep telling you , we are not a homogenous group whereas you insist atheism is a belief. Why would we build temples to tooth fairies ?
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My view of art: it aims to please. If you can find any enduring source of atheist art?


iceaura said:
Among many other things, some of those temples etc.

Architects build for clients, and the money talks. It has always been quite common - as in America now - for the big money to be in religious buildings, religious art, etc.

You might look at music, for example, and conclude from Western classical history that theism was once necessary for musical creativity. But then you find the themes were from "folk music", the instruments and conventions predated the religion involved, the only source of regular income for a musician was the church, and the penalty for declared atheism was severe.
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So basically even atheists were dependent on the religious for their art. Which was funded and commissioned by religious organisations. But the atheist movements in India [the Lokatyas, for example] had no such handicaps. So where is their art? Apparently material comfort of the self was a more pressing commitment.

The three authors of the Vedas were buffoons, knaves, and demons.
All the well-known formulae of the pandits, jarphari, turphari, etc.
and all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in Aswamedha,
these were invented by buffoons, and so all the various kinds of presents to the priests,
while the eating of flesh was similarly commanded by night-prowling demons.
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Unfortunately for them, the Vedas continue to instruct until today, providing a rich source of history, social, religious, moral and political education. Their constructive criticism being the only thing the Carvakas left behind. In fact, the only reason we know of the Carvakas is because their religious opponents preserved some of their works.
 
Norsefire said:
It seems that atheists think they are so "rational" and love "rationality" so much, it often seems as if atheists are anti-art, anti-philosophy, anti-culture, and anti-creativity.

Is this the case? After all, "art" isn't "rational", right? Let's just live in a society that has no beliefs, no culture, and no art and music!

What fun!
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The irony is that fascists have a great deal of trouble with art and artists as do more totalitarian regimes (more irony). They tend to view only a certain, restrainted (often neo-classical) form as acceptable. Words like degenerate get thrown about. Certain kinds of music are seen as subversive. Certainly any creative lifestyle choices are also threatening to the radical conservatism in fascism and these tend to be punished by roving bands and/or the police.

So a fan of fascism and totalitarianism going after atheists for being anti-creative is really rather strange.
 
I don't know about that. Hitler had a pretty good collection in his bunker.
 
S.A.M. said:
My view of art: it aims to please. If you can find any enduring source of atheist art?
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Oh, come on SAM. Many artists have been atheists.

Some composers and musicians
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827) was raised
Catholic but quit the church and adopted Goethe's
Pantheism -- the belief that "god" is the same as the
forces and laws of nature. Although a lifelong
atheist, on his death bed, he yielded to Catholic
friends and let a priest administer the sacraments.
When the priest left, Beethoven quoted the Latin
words from the ancient Roman theater, "Applaud,
my friends, the comedy is over."
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Hector Berlioz (1803-1869) the French composer
wrote much church music and is claimed as a follower
by the Catholic Encyclopaedia. Yet, Berloiz often
stated in his letters that he was an atheist. G. K.
Boult (Life of Berlioz, 1903, p. 298) reproduced a
letter written by Berloiz shortly before his death in
which he states with regard to religion, "I believe
nothing."
Celebrate Berloiz's 200th birthday on 11 December 2003!
Learn more at http://www.hberlioz.com/
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Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756 - 1791) began composing at age five and conducted a Mass he'd composed at age 12. While the concert master to the Archbishop of Salzbury he began losing his Catholic faith. He joined the Freemasons, which was banned by the Church, and turned to writing opera. Leading biographers give further evidence of his rejecting Christianity. On his death bed he refused the priest sent for by his wife and was buried without a service in the common grave of the poor.
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more both modern and 'classical' here
http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/atheistmusicians_atoe.html

I am too lazy to search for painters and writers, but I am quite sure there are many, especially of the latter.

edit: here's a list of writers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(authors)

And for me this seems quite likely. I am afraid for me the organized religions have tended to suppress creativity - or accept only certain forms. This kind of suppression has also been aimed at lifestyles. Creative people are going to rebel, at least a good many of them. If the whole thing had been a bit more democratic all along, who knows, but creative people often rebel against dominating bureaucracies, both secular and religious.

I realize my references are rather Eurocentric, but laziness + googling in English will do that.
 
Ghandi had a huge collection of those inwards-facing dildo pants. You know, they're like strap on dildos but worn inside out so that the dildo satisfies the wearer of the pant. Ghandi was nuts about them.
 
And SAM,
Given the way religious organizations, at least in Europe, dealt with people who were heretics or not good little believers, we cannot really know for sure how many artistic types have been atheists. It was often not at all safe to say one was.

And then there are the agnostics.....
 
Simon Anders said:
And SAM,
Given the way religious organizations, at least in Europe, dealt with people who were heretics or not good little believers, we cannot really know for sure how many artistic types have been atheists. It was often not at all safe to say one was.

And then there are the agnostics.....
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And the artists or would-be artists that have been killed for not being a good little believer.
 
SAM said:
So basically even atheists were dependent on the religious for their art. - -
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The exact opposite. The theistic trade their money, of which they often have a quasi monopoly, for the art that only a few can supply.

Religions seldom originate, but they universally co-opt.

The odd fact that theistic religions tend to accumulate a society's wealth, while most often espousing doctrines and beliefs that discourage such accumulation, is just one of those divine mysteries, apparently.
 
S.A.M. said:
My view of art: it aims to please. If you can find any enduring source of atheist art?

So buy yourself a picture of a nice little pussycat with a pink ribbon about its neck; that should please you and you may come to be known as an art lover. Steer clear of anything that challenges fixed ideas and provokes thought; it's not for you.



So basically even atheists were dependent on the religious for their art. Which was funded and commissioned by religious organisations. But the atheist movements in India [the Lokatyas, for example] had no such handicaps. So where is their art? Apparently material comfort of the self was a more pressing commitment.

As usual , you make a very uncompelling case. You seem to be a bit thick.

Unfortunately for them, the Vedas continue to instruct until today, providing a rich source of history, social, religious, moral and political education. Their constructive criticism being the only thing the Carvakas left behind. In fact, the only reason we know of the Carvakas is because their religious opponents preserved some of their works.

Who needs the Vedas ? Can't people live with their individual views, just like they do under Islam as you told us above ?
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S.A.M. said:
I don't know about that. Hitler had a pretty good collection in his bunker.
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You do know about his and the Nazis relationship to art.

http://fcit.usf.edu/HOLOCAUST/arts/artdegen.htm

And Europe and other nations received a great influx of creative people when fascist juntas came to power in Latin America. Those that managed to escape with their lives.

Extreme populism - fascism - is extremely concerned by art and artists and creative people. Fascisms tend to raise an ideal image of the perfect _________ (aryan, for example) and his lifestyle. Creative people will present images, styles, musical patterns that break from tradition and might 'mislead' children and citizens that a pluralisic society with breaks from tradition is OK.

Totalitarian regimes of the communist sort also have suppressed religious art and less representational forms of art - too bourgeois!.

And religious totalitarian regimes also put restrictions on art - both directly by attacking 'problematic art' and indirectly by controlling the market and demanding certain forms. Art can be heretic also.
 
You only have to beleive in the existence of art, the creator (you), and the tools you use.
 
*************
M*W: All art forms come from the sexual side of a person, the libido. Ergo, comes passion. Passion is expressed in all forms of art. This is not my opinion but the opinions of Psychology 101.

Ever visit an art gallery? Just look at the paintings and realize that whatever motivated the artist came from his sexuality. Not hard to figure out.
 
Norsefire said:
It seems that atheists think they are so "rational" and love "rationality" so much, it often seems as if atheists are anti-art, anti-philosophy, anti-culture, and anti-creativity.

Is this the case? After all, "art" isn't "rational", right? Let's just live in a society that has no beliefs, no culture, and no art and music!

What fun!
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For a Muslim pretending to be a Christian pretending to be
Agnostic pretending to be Christian, you need to do a little research Before you make, extremely stupid statements.

As oli already posted http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/atheistmusicians_atoe.html
http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/atheistmusicians_ftom.html
http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/atheistmusicians_mtor.html
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/musicians/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(film,_radio,_television_and_theatre)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(music)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(authors)
 
How many of those were brought up as atheists? There's brainwashing to be considered, in case they had delusional parents
 
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