My best hypnogogic hallucination ever!

[Crunchy Cat]

Im having a bit of trouble getting into the pdf, the laptop im on atm seems alittle slow. I'll tell you what i think of it when i get to read it ; )

No problem, I downloaded it to my dekstop. I can upload it to an FTP
site or other area if you would like (it might make the download easier
for you).

I find your certainty almost religious, particularly in the way you insist on me comming round to your beliefs.
The only real truth here is that You have a pretty good idea of the truth of your own personal experiences i dont doubt that, but your personal experiences dont cover all the possibilities and variations of experience with hallucinations and realistically cant be used as a yard-stick for all other expeirences. Doesnt that make sense?

It is true that my personal experiences don't cover all permutations of
hallucination. My personal experiences, what I have learned about
the commonalities of hallucination, my observations of human behavior, my
understanding of biology / physics / math, etc. all show that hallucination
is exactly how it's defined... this is why a word exists to describe it. My
assertion that hallucination is what it is and nothing more is not a result
of belief. The assertion that it is even remotely possible for a hallcination
to manifest reality is a best a belief.

Im not sure if you wrote that realising the full implications of what you were saying, this in fact gets right into the heart of the argument, are thought and reality so seperate from each other? well to draw on my own personal experience, id say not. Infact id say they're intrinsically interwoven to the extent that you can shape reality in numerous ways without a classic 'physical' action taking place. The difference being that im not going to try convince you with my personal anecdotal evidence, im sensibile enough to know that it offers no proof to anyone other than myself.

I agree, thought and reality are not seperate. Brains decelop and exist within
reality (theoretically, each of the tiniest points that make up a brain are
comprised of 11 mathematical dimensions with a wealth of information
properties). This means that thought is a result of reality. The relationship
between thought and reality is that thought is a product of it... not the
other way around.

I would be interested in hearing your personal experiences however even
if it is felt that it offers no proof.

Well, if you re-read what i said again i didnt conclude that this was what happened i offered it up as a possibility, of course there are others,..

I think we're getting hung up on language. My definition of possibility is
"a state of being possible" and my definition of possible is "capable of
existing taking into account known fact". I am sure a dictionary would back
me up. To offer anything as a possibility is to say it is capable of existing.
This becomes a conclusion.

If we don't take into account the meaning of the words we use then we
end up speaking different languages.

Limited details in experiments sometimes can be a pain, ive emailed people before to get more details, but never seem to get a response. Maybe im just unlucky or have a poor email manner : p

I've done exactly the same and received the same lack of response. This
is a point of evidence; however, what it supports is anyones guess. It
could be turned into a hypothesis... something along the lines of those
with fantastic claims are less likely to respond. The results of testing the
hypothesis could be correlated with results of how humans behave under
the guise of false assertion to see if there is a relationship.

Without being there in person, i dare say its near impossible to work out what happened with complete certainty, im sure they could set up the same experiment again and get it on film. The problem being that people with call hoax...

It's not impossible to eliminate doubts about the purity of an experiment
by having a controlled environment set by a 3rd party. I am sure CNN
would host that in a heartbeat for a fantastic claim

, because ive seen many many videos of amazing manifestations/poltergeist activity thats been put through the video analyazing treatment and come up as LEGIT, but alas ghosts are still not excepted as being real in our society, its still too fantastic in the mind of the common man to be true.
Ive come to the conclusion that video evidence doesnt make a blind bit of difference to firm attitudes no matter what is captured. This type of evidence isnt nearly as useful as you would think.
The second problem is capturing the event on film, would not in itself go anyway to proving with absolute certainty that the group manifested them.
There are no methods that exsist to prove this without any doubt.

I have seen the same type of video evidence. Clearly events occured which
are irrefutable. It's the conclusions that are the problem. In scenario A,
a chair moves 2 inches across the floor in poorly lit room and is caught on
video by TAPS. TAPS concludes it's a ghost... in their mind it's the only
explanation. Factors such as the room is part of a light house being pummeled
by strong waves, the floors are uneven + slanted, etc. are simply not taken
into consideration. In scenario B, a video camera in a dimly lit room picks
up an out-of-focus sphere of light moving along a crazy path. The only
other sources of light in the room are natural light and electronic devices.
TAPS concludes it's an energy ORB. Oddly enought the same exact behavior
can be generated by taking a tissue and crumpling it up in front of a camera
in a dark room with a few lights from electronic devices. The tissue dust picks
up the light from the electronic devices, fly's in front of the camera in weird
paths, and the camera doesn't focus on the dust so it looks like an out of
focus orb of light. Naturally, this is not considered.

I have the tools of scientific methodolagy, its not something im a stranger to, im just smart enough to know when they can be applied and when they cant. Its a shame you cant put your tools down long enough to realise there are other ways to chip away at the truth.
As i said a while back all you need do with my idea is see if it applys to your experiences, or any experiences of others. Im not trying to force this idea down your throat, if youve already decided its rubbish, then disregard it.

This is a tricky assertion. I can tell sometimes when I am being lied to in
person (hence, my intuition / social intelligence can result in truth). No
'scientific method' involved; however, this is not something reliable. I am
also going to assert that the 'scientific method' fails to reach the correct
conclusion sometimes (mainly due to mis-interpretation by humans). Out
of all the methods of finding truth I am going to assert that the ones where
questions are asked, experiments are performed, and observations analyzed
are going to produce truth with the best consistency, accuracy, and
confidence.

I personally see the original assertion as 'rubbish' on the grounds that it is contradicted by known fact concerning hallucination. I really wish I could
help accelerate your discovery of truth surrounding this...

Again, any evidence youd like to show me im happy to take a look at, but you'll have to produce it at some stage if you want to keep refering to it.

Commit to an experiment, read the references of the PDF, take courses
on psychology / biology / chemistry, learn more about psychotropic drug
properties, ... these will all yield a plethora of evidence. An experiment with
a video camera and / or 3rd party observer is the quickest and most powerful
one to do.

You could be right, im still not sure it would prove much either way

If a hallucinating brain was actually not hallucinating but rather generating
reality then changes in matter configuration would result in releases of energy
as less total matter in the current view existed. Similarly when more matter
came into view, energy would have to be drawn to the immediate area for
compression. Either way, there would be tons of energy moving about to
reconfigure the matter in the immediate area. Show this exists when a
person hallucinates is a form of evidence supporting the original assertion.

Yep and dont get me wrong, thats a great tried and tested approach, im just open to other methods, i.e. comming up with an explaination when no other explaination seem to fit. I think thats pretty reasonable.

This is a key area where we differ. If an explanation doesn't exist then it's
something on the table for future exploration, experimentation, etc... in
the meantime I'll stick with the answer 'I don't know'. Coming up with a
creative explanation to make things fit is something humans do well. It
is a substitute for truth and holds no more value than asserting 'the invisible
pink unicorn did it'.

Sounds like youve had some very interesting experiences, i actually took some philosophers stone truffles on the weekend, which are a very potent type of fungus that grows beneath te ground. I had some amazing experiences, especially with multi-coloured 'jewels' of light that seemed to in habit most of my visions. It was a similar effect to when light reflects off the surface of a bubble.

That's really cool. If you decide to take the truffles again on another
weekend, bring some friends along (don't feed them the truffles) and
describe what you see and where you see it. See if anyone else sees
the same thing.

Im definitely interested to know why my mind seperated out the colour spectrum for me like this while simply staring at a wall. Abit of research to be done there i think...

Grab a rat, some tools to measure brain activity, some truffles and
measure what happens to brain activity during the rats trip. Next,
autopsy the rats brain and see what state it physically is in after the
trip. These actions will help answer the question.

 

[Less Than Zero]

I had one this morning on the bus. I got on the bus and sat with my friend, she was wearing tan pants and a black shirt, OK? We talked about 5 minutes and I looked down at my MP3 player, and she was wearing black pants, so I look up and she was wearing a purple and blue shirt, and that is what she is wearing today, the black pants and the purple and blue shirt. And yes, I was awake, completely.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I had one this morning on the bus. I got on the bus and sat with my friend, she was wearing tan pants and a black shirt, OK? We talked about 5 minutes and I looked down at my MP3 player, and she was wearing black pants, so I look up and she was wearing a purple and blue shirt, and that is what she is wearing today, the black pants and the purple and blue shirt. And yes, I was awake, completely.

Wow that is seriously cool. How did you feel that morning? Tired, well
rested, etc? Was there anything different about that morning compared
to others?

I don't know why, I have this vaguest feeling that I may have personally
encountered something like this in the far far past... ahh well if it comes
to me I'll certainly share it.

 

[heliocentric]

No problem, I downloaded it to my dekstop. I can upload it to an FTP
site or other area if you would like (it might make the download easier
for you).

I saved it to my desktop and managed to read it finally, i was kind of disapointed by it, it was a laboured agony over how to best catagorise hallucinations. But at least it was vaugely acknowledged that the boundries between hallucinations and other states of mind arnt so clear. There may be some hope yet..

It is true that my personal experiences don't cover all permutations of
hallucination. My personal experiences, what I have learned about
the commonalities of hallucination, my observations of human behavior, my
understanding of biology / physics / math, etc. all show that hallucination
is exactly how it's defined...

I think the definition is inadequte, it doesnt always comfortably fit in with my experiences or the experiences of others.
The worst mistake is any far reaching feeling or hallucination is always written off as an illusion. I remember seeing a program about a guy who was born with some sort of chemical imbalance in his brain,which basically meant that every now and again hed become and feel incredibly connected with everything around him. Hed run along the beach shouting 'im god' 'you're god', and kissing the sand. I think these episodes as they were called were actually very beneficial for him but he was starting to get them too offen and it was begining to interfere with his everyday life. The neurolagist he went to told him that this imbalance in the brain was creating this illusion....now hang on i thought; whos to say it is an illusion, this man could be experiencing reality in a far more whole and truthful way than most of us. It could simply be that this connected aspect of reality is hidden from us because it would be a hinderance to everyday survival.
The problem is notions such as these are still alittle bit over the head of mainstream sicence.

The assertion that it is even remotely possible for a hallcination
to manifest reality is a best a belief.

Im agnostic, that doesnt mean i believe in god, just that its a possbility for me, see the difference yet?

I agree, thought and reality are not seperate. Brains decelop and exist within
reality (theoretically, each of the tiniest points that make up a brain are
comprised of 11 mathematical dimensions with a wealth of information
properties). This means that thought is a result of reality. The relationship
between thought and reality is that thought is a product of it... not the
other way around.

Pure speculation, fine if you believe that, just as long as you realise that its far from scientifically provable.

I would be interested in hearing your personal experiences however even
if it is felt that it offers no proof.

Well the most life changing and spiritual experiences ive had have been what you might call a realisation or hyper awareness of a collective consciousness.

I think we're getting hung up on language. My definition of possibility is
"a state of being possible" and my definition of possible is "capable of
existing taking into account known fact". I am sure a dictionary would back
me up. To offer anything as a possibility is to say it is capable of existing.
This becomes a conclusion.

If we don't take into account the meaning of the words we use then we
end up speaking different languages.

Conclusion to my mind denotes comming to a final decision, no decision has been arrived at yet.
The thing about langauge is even the most simple words have a plethora of meanings attached to them. Look and compare some online dictionaries, you'll see that they can hardly ever agree on the exact same interpretation of a word. Language is ambiguous at best, you have to allow that and work around it, simply creating your own linguistic universe and treating your definitions as absolute is not going to help in exchanging ideas.
[/quote]

I've done exactly the same and received the same lack of response. This
is a point of evidence; however, what it supports is anyones guess. It
could be turned into a hypothesis... something along the lines of those
with fantastic claims are less likely to respond. The results of testing the
hypothesis could be correlated with results of how humans behave under
the guise of false assertion to see if there is a relationship.

I think ive only ever contacted those making fantastic claims, so who knows maybe those that make moderate claims are just as unresponsive. : p

It's not impossible to eliminate doubts about the purity of an experiment
by having a controlled environment set by a 3rd party. I am sure CNN
would host that in a heartbeat for a fantastic claim

Shall you contact them or should i? ; )

I have seen the same type of video evidence. Clearly events occured which
are irrefutable. It's the conclusions that are the problem. In scenario A,
a chair moves 2 inches across the floor in poorly lit room and is caught on
video by TAPS. TAPS concludes it's a ghost... in their mind it's the only
explanation. Factors such as the room is part of a light house being pummeled
by strong waves, the floors are uneven + slanted, etc. are simply not taken
into consideration. In scenario B, a video camera in a dimly lit room picks
up an out-of-focus sphere of light moving along a crazy path. The only
other sources of light in the room are natural light and electronic devices.
TAPS concludes it's an energy ORB. Oddly enought the same exact behavior
can be generated by taking a tissue and crumpling it up in front of a camera
in a dark room with a few lights from electronic devices. The tissue dust picks
up the light from the electro
nic devices, fly's in front of the camera in weird
paths, and the camera doesn't focus on the dust so it looks like an out of
focus orb of light. Naturally, this is not considered.

Yep, im abit of a self proclaimed nerd on orbs hehe, most orbs in pictures are just dust/air particles thats got close to the lense and have been iluminated by the flash. You useally get the effect with a compact camera where the flash is very close to the lense, with a hand-held flash you almost never capture a fake orb.
I think you're wrong in saying this isnt considered, i think most paranormal investigators are well aware of this effect. And the ones ive seen useally try and rule out all possible explaination before saying 'its a ghost/light lifeform'.

Ive seen footage of a room FULL of orbs, all making breakneck manuvaures, and changing directions. Ive also seen footage in a kitchen during daylight of chairs sliding across the room and tables sliding, things flying across the room. There was one point where one chair had the family's child sitting on it, that didnt stop the chair from being rocked and slid across the room despite the fact the childs legs couldnt even touch the ground. With footage like that you're talking about an invisible intelligence, if not then its an elaborate hoax with the paranormal investigators, the film crew, and the family all in on it. And if it was a hoax that kid deserved an academy award for looking so distressed and upset by it all.
The orignal point being that no matter what is captured its never enough, the footage is next to worthles against such a strong tide of disbelief.

This is a tricky assertion. I can tell sometimes when I am being lied to in
person (hence, my intuition / social intelligence can result in truth). No
'scientific method' involved; however, this is not something reliable. I am
also going to assert that the 'scientific method' fails to reach the correct
conclusion sometimes (mainly due to mis-interpretation by humans). Out
of all the methods of finding truth I am going to assert that the ones where
questions are asked, experiments are performed, and observations analyzed
are going to produce truth with the best consistency, accuracy, and
confidence.

I agree with you there in part, intuition isnt something to be disgarded as most people seem to think, as far as im concerned its just realising something wordlessly, before youve had time to abstract that thought and verbalise it and probably distort it in the process.
This is why i dont always follow the scientific method, some times abstract models are very useful, but sometimes they lead you away and give you a false impression of what it is you're trying to understand.
I also think that all the questions you could think to ask can be answered simply by accessing that part of your mind that lies somewhere beneath the ego (figuratively speaking). Of course accessing that part of the mind can be very hard and sometimes even frightening, so in the mean time i rely on other methods too. If i could think in that way on demand then i wouldnt bother with science or philosophy in the slighest.

I personally see the original assertion as 'rubbish' on the grounds that it is contradicted by known fact concerning hallucination. I really wish I could
help accelerate your discovery of truth surrounding this...

I wish you would bother to read information other than distanced scientists agonising over re-defining an inadequte and mis-leading word. Theres a whole world of information about hallucinations both social, personal, empirical, and speculative. I get the impression that your limiting your scope of information to a great degree, and treating the 'facts' you have as the only information thats worth knowing. If you really want to get to the truth of hallucinations the best way would be too pull in information from a wide variety of sources and cultures.

Commit to an experiment, read the references of the PDF, take courses
on psychology / biology / chemistry, learn more about psychotropic drug
properties, ... these will all yield a plethora of evidence. An experiment with
a video camera and / or 3rd party observer is the quickest and most powerful
one to do.

Meditate, read books on shamanism, reflect on your own experiences without trying to reduce them, try to read more philosophy to give you other ways of interpreting reality. Combine these with your existing methods and you're much more likely to get to the truth.

If a hallucinating brain was actually not hallucinating but rather generating
reality then changes in matter configuration would result in releases of energy
as less total matter in the current view existed. Similarly when more matter
came into view, energy would have to be drawn to the immediate area for
compression. Either way, there would be tons of energy moving about to
reconfigure the matter in the immediate area. Show this exists when a
person hallucinates is a form of evidence supporting the original assertion.

Im not a scientist, but it seems you still refuse to take my word for it,

This is a key area where we differ. If an explanation doesn't exist then it's
something on the table for future exploration, experimentation, etc... in
the meantime I'll stick with the answer 'I don't know'. Coming up with a
creative explanation to make things fit is something humans do well. It
is a substitute for truth and holds no more value than asserting 'the invisible
pink unicorn did it'.

Not really, that argument is invalid, you're trying to compare a random fantastic explaination to one that actually fits and offers a pretty good solution if correct. It doesnt have to be the 100% absolutely true, you can speculate without commiting, thats the whole point of speculation.

That's really cool. If you decide to take the truffles again on another
weekend, bring some friends along (don't feed them the truffles) and
describe what you see and where you see it. See if anyone else sees
the same thing.

I might do that, no sure if i'll be doing them again for a while though...

Grab a rat, some tools to measure brain activity, some truffles and
measure what happens to brain activity during the rats trip. Next,
autopsy the rats brain and see what state it physically is in after the
trip. These actions will help answer the question.

Are you for real? i really have to wonder if you're completey sane when you say things like that. Not only is that a pointless experiment its wrong and unethical. Not to mention illegal (in my country anyway), if you want to conduct tests on animals you have to have a license and follow strict guide lines. I really hope that was just a misguided joke..

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I saved it to my desktop and managed to read it finally, i was kind of disapointed by it, it was a laboured agony over how to best catagorise hallucinations. But at least it was vaugely acknowledged that the boundries between hallucinations and other states of mind arnt so clear. There may be some hope yet..

It's the references at the end of the article that are important. Not the article
itself.

I think the definition is inadequte, it doesnt always comfortably fit in with my experiences or the experiences of others.

I am in agreement. I find many definitions inadequate in the English language.
Unfortunately I don't think the issue will be resolved in our lifetimes.

The worst mistake is any far reaching feeling or hallucination is always written off as an illusion. I remember seeing a program about a guy who was born with some sort of chemical imbalance in his brain,which basically meant that every now and again hed become and feel incredibly connected with everything around him. Hed run along the beach shouting 'im god' 'you're god', and kissing the sand. I think these episodes as they were called were actually very beneficial for him but he was starting to get them too offen and it was begining to interfere with his everyday life. The neurolagist he went to told him that this imbalance in the brain was creating this illusion....now hang on i thought; whos to say it is an illusion, this man could be experiencing reality in a far more whole and truthful way than most of us. It could simply be that this connected aspect of reality is hidden from us because it would be a hinderance to everyday survival.
The problem is notions such as these are still alittle bit over the head of mainstream sicence.

Based on the behaviors described I am familiar with this specific effect.
As I recall it has something to do with inhibiting electrical activity in the
parf of the brain that responsible for distinguishing ones self from others
and it can be reproduced artifically with directed electric fields. What
effectively happens is people loose their sense of self and become 'one' with
everything and have all sorts of fantastic euphoric experiences. To
experience this at all times (due to altererd brain chemestry) would probably
impede survival. An individual afflicted with such a genetic variation is less
likely to reproduce as the variation doesn't promote survival. I would agree
that such a person's brain is working in a different way. I would assert that if
it interferes with survival I would question any notion of it being more aligned
to truth of reality.

Im agnostic, that doesnt mean i believe in god, just that its a possbility for me, see the difference yet?

It's an assertion that an entity, 'God', has even the slightest chance of
existing. It's an assertion of probabistic truth.

Pure speculation, fine if you believe that, just as long as you realise that its far from scientifically provable.

Which part?

Well the most life changing and spiritual experiences ive had have been what you might call a realisation or hyper awareness of a collective consciousness.

Tell me what the experience is like.

Conclusion to my mind denotes comming to a final decision, no decision has been arrived at yet.
The thing about langauge is even the most simple words have a plethora of meanings attached to them. Look and compare some online dictionaries, you'll see that they can hardly ever agree on the exact same interpretation of a word. Language is ambiguous at best, you have to allow that and work around it, simply creating your own linguistic universe and treating your definitions as absolute is not going to help in exchanging ideas.

I agree that definition is a tough cookie. When it really counts, people
come to agreements on explicit meanings of words. The legal world
has made a fortune doing this.

I think ive only ever contacted those making fantastic claims, so who knows maybe those that make moderate claims are just as unresponsive. : p

I was recently at a team meeting where everyone made moderate claims
and were all very responsive to them. Welcome to the moderate world .

Shall you contact them or should i? ; )

By my guest. I don't have any links to people creating spirits.

Yep, im abit of a self proclaimed nerd on orbs hehe, most orbs in pictures are just dust/air particles thats got close to the lense and have been iluminated by the flash. You useally get the effect with a compact camera where the flash is very close to the lense, with a hand-held flash you almost never capture a fake orb.
I think you're wrong in saying this isnt considered, i think most paranormal investigators are well aware of this effect. And the ones ive seen useally try and rule out all possible explaination before saying 'its a ghost/light lifeform'.
Ive seen footage of a room FULL of orbs, all making breakneck manuvaures, and changing directions.

Hypothetically speaking, lets say a set of criteria are ruled out some how
concerning the 'dust' effect. How does it suddenly become a 'ghost/light
lifeform'? I could easily substitute the conclusion with the 'easter bunny'
and it would hold equal weight.

Ive also seen footage in a kitchen during daylight of chairs sliding across the room and tables sliding, things flying across the room. There was one point where one chair had the family's child sitting on it, that didnt stop the chair from being rocked and slid across the room despite the fact the childs legs couldnt even touch the ground. With footage like that you're talking about an invisible intelligence, if not then its an elaborate hoax with the paranormal investigators, the film crew, and the family all in on it. And if it was a hoax that kid deserved an academy award for looking so distressed and upset by it all.

Again, lets assume these events occured and nothing was rigged (hoaxed),
what is 'intelligent' about furniture moving around a room? Again, I could
use the 'easter bunny' substitute...

The orignal point being that no matter what is captured its never enough, the footage is next to worthles against such a strong tide of disbelief.

It helps if fantastic footage is recorded by a credible source; however,
that's not nearly as problematic as the conclusions that result out of
valid footage. Instead of investigating and potentially admitting 'I don't
know what that was'... ghosts get the credit.

I agree with you there in part, intuition isnt something to be disgarded as most people seem to think, as far as im concerned its just realising something wordlessly, before youve had time to abstract that thought and verbalise it and probably distort it in the process.
This is why i dont always follow the scientific method, some times abstract models are very useful, but sometimes they lead you away and give you a false impression of what it is you're trying to understand.

Fair enough.

I also think that all the questions you could think to ask can be answered simply by accessing that part of your mind that lies somewhere beneath the ego (figuratively speaking). Of course accessing that part of the mind can be very hard and sometimes even frightening, so in the mean time i rely on other methods too. If i could think in that way on demand then i wouldnt bother with science or philosophy in the slighest.

Ya' lost me here. Pretend I am a preschooler and you want to explain
this concept to me.

I wish you would bother to read information other than distanced scientists agonising over re-defining an inadequte and mis-leading word. Theres a whole world of information about hallucinations both social, personal, empirical, and speculative. I get the impression that your limiting your scope of information to a great degree, and treating the 'facts' you have as the only information thats worth knowing. If you really want to get to the truth of hallucinations the best way would be too pull in information from a wide variety of sources and cultures.

You are correct. It's a judgement call based on experience concerning
which information is noise and which information provides value. It works
too.

Meditate, read books on shamanism, reflect on your own experiences without trying to reduce them, try to read more philosophy to give you other ways of interpreting reality. Combine these with your existing methods and you're much more likely to get to the truth.

I prefer to jump right into the meat of it. I recently (while I was on that
Seattle trip... did I mention that?) did a past life and in-between life
regression with a hypnotherappist. Awseome, fantastic, energizing, euphoric,
etc... are the words I would use to describe the experience. Other words
I would use are fantasy, imagination, hallucination, rem. I actually took
time to experiment and observe throughout the experience. I asked questions,
tested ideas, and observed results. This data supported the notion that
the experience was mind-generated (but it was very cool).

Im not a scientist, but it seems you still refuse to take my word for it,

One can only hope... the assertion is that if a brain is manifesting reality
then the laws of physics state that heat, light, sound, etc... would be
constantly released and accumulated in the area surrounding the the
brain manifesting reality. Very large amounts. It would be a veritable
storm of energy.

Not really, that argument is invalid, you're trying to compare a random fantastic explaination to one that actually fits and offers a pretty good solution if correct. It doesnt have to be the 100% absolutely true, you can speculate without commiting, thats the whole point of speculation.

Give me any such speculation and I can substitute the 'easter bunny'
and lose nor gain value...

I might do that, no sure if i'll be doing them again for a while though...

Fair enough. Give that ol' brain some recovery time.

Are you for real? i really have to wonder if you're completey sane when you say things like that. Not only is that a pointless experiment its wrong and unethical. Not to mention illegal (in my country anyway), if you want to conduct tests on animals you have to have a license and follow strict guide lines. I really hope that was just a misguided joke..

I don't think it's pointless. You could see which areas of the brain are
affected and how they are affected. Skip the autopsy if there are issues
concerning ending the life of a rat (or better yet find a really mean rat...
ok now i am just being silly). In all seriousness, get over it. Its a rat, give
it a good trip and you can let it live a long healthy happy life otherwise.

 

[heliocentric]

It's the references at the end of the article that are important. Not the article
itself.

Have read them yourself? if so which ones are worth reading?

I am in agreement. I find many definitions inadequate in the English language.
Unfortunately I don't think the issue will be resolved in our lifetimes.

Well in topics like these i can understand why some people use maths as an unambiguous way of exchanging ideas, language is never that concrete, which can be a pain but is also part of its beauty i think.

An individual afflicted with such a genetic variation is less
likely to reproduce as the variation doesn't promote survival. I would agree
that such a person's brain is working in a different way. I would assert that if
it interferes with survival I would question any notion of it being more aligned
to truth of reality.

Think about it, survival and evolution is all about narrowing down your abilities, till your perception is honed towards specific tasks, if that precedent is removed in anyway (without any brain damage or deformity of the brain in the process of course). I think its fair to say you would have a less narrow and more true/open perception of reality.

It's an assertion that an entity, 'God', has even the slightest chance of
existing. It's an assertion of probabistic truth.

Re-read what i wrote language and the need to be willing to include other interpretations of language.

Which part?

All of it.

Tell me what the experience is like.

I only had the experience only once, i felt immersed in a pool of information/knowledge and felt incredibly euphoric, i recieved future information about a family members health, which turned out to be correct.
I also had the distinct knowledge at one point that i could quite easily remove my consciousness from my body and insert it into someone else. I say knowledge because it wasnt as if it was a thought or an idea that came into my head, i actually KNEW that i could do it if i wanted. I nearly did, but i realised it was reckless and that the knowledge that i could was quite enough for me.
Its such a hard experience to put into words to be honest, i fail everytime, that feeling of all encompassing knowledge is just indescribable

I agree that definition is a tough cookie. When it really counts, people
come to agreements on explicit meanings of words. The legal world
has made a fortune doing this.

True true.

I was recently at a team meeting where everyone made moderate claims
and were all very responsive to them. Welcome to the moderate world .

I hate bloody team meetings, i should learn to be a team player more i suppose...

Hypothetically speaking, lets say a set of criteria are ruled out some how
concerning the 'dust' effect. How does it suddenly become a 'ghost/light
lifeform'? I could easily substitute the conclusion with the 'easter bunny'
and it would hold equal weight.

I think you're trying to use a very played out argument in the wrong context, but i know what you're saying. Quite simply, the orbs that i was talking about could be seen to be giving off their own lightsource, ok maybe saying they are 'composed of light' is stretching it at bit. But their defining character seemed to be light, so its a good place to start in reference to them.
A lifeform because its a known fact that something that powers under its own accord, AND is able to change its direction/speed contrary to local gravity/weather patterns, must be intelligent to carry out these actions.
You could NOT substitute the easter bunny because it does not look like an easter bunny and its not carrying a basket of eggs.
You're trying to use a template argument without actually thinking it through, it doesnt fit in this instance.

Again, lets assume these events occured and nothing was rigged (hoaxed),
what is 'intelligent' about furniture moving around a room? Again, I could
use the 'easter bunny' substitute...

Well when one of the guy's asked the spirit to move specific peices of furniture, i think that showed a degree of intelligence from what ever it was that was moving it, by my assesment anyway. You could not use the easter bunny substitute because there was no easter bunny pushing around the furniture, and from communicating with the entity is was established that it was a human being that had died and once lived in that house and was now a spirit.

It helps if fantastic footage is recorded by a credible source; however,
that's not nearly as problematic as the conclusions that result out of
valid footage. Instead of investigating and potentially admitting 'I don't
know what that was'... ghosts get the credit.

People more offen that not make atempts to communicate with entities in these situations, in most instances its useally estabished that these intelligences were once human, i.e. a ghost. I think from past cultural experience too when people experience poltergeist activity and materialisations people generally think 'ghost'.

Ya' lost me here. Pretend I am a preschooler and you want to explain
this concept to me.

I guess what im saying is all knowledge is there for the asking if you can manage to put your ego to one side, ive no idea how it works, although ive heard people put forward hypotheses such as in the holographic universe book (i think thats its title) to explain this. But whatever the case ive experienced this to be true first hand, but again, im not asking you to take my word for it, if you dont believe it i have no problem with that. But simply writting off such experiencs as brain generated illusions is reductionism at its very worst; you're debasing the mind to box of tricks thats super cool and can do crazy stuff.

I prefer to jump right into the meat of it. I recently (while I was on that
Seattle trip... did I mention that?) did a past life and in-between life
regression with a hypnotherappist. Awseome, fantastic, energizing, euphoric,
etc... are the words I would use to describe the experience. Other words
I would use are fantasy, imagination, hallucination, rem. I actually took
time to experiment and observe throughout the experience. I asked questions,
tested ideas, and observed results. This data supported the notion that
the experience was mind-generated (but it was very cool).

Yes i remember you writing about that, it i find it VERY interesting to say the least, im glad it helped reinforced some of your pre-formed opinions.

One can only hope... the assertion is that if a brain is manifesting reality
then the laws of physics state that heat, light, sound, etc... would be
constantly released and accumulated in the area surrounding the the
brain manifesting reality. Very large amounts. It would be a veritable
storm of energy.

Theoritically yes, although in real terms ive seen footage of materialisations in the same program i was refering to earlier, and ive read multiple eye-witness accounts of ghosts (and other things) simply appearing ( and always with no preceeding burst of energy whatsoever).
I think because manifestations of this kind are weak light projections, rather than densely formed matter. With this in mind im going to have to disagree on that one. And in the case of the seance the manifestation was mostly the action itself.

Give me any such speculation and I can substitute the 'easter bunny'
and lose nor gain value...

Thats a fallacy, theres a big difference between speculations that actually fit the situation, and speculations that simply attach a random cause.

I don't think it's pointless. You could see which areas of the brain are
affected and how they are affected. Skip the autopsy if there are issues
concerning ending the life of a rat (or better yet find a really mean rat...
ok now i am just being silly). In all seriousness, get over it. Its a rat, give
it a good trip and you can let it live a long healthy happy life otherwise.

In all all serious its the barmiest thing anyones ever suggested to me...

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Have read them yourself? if so which ones are worth reading?

Nope (to the first question). The books that discuss observations / research
of hallucination would be my recommendation.

Think about it, survival and evolution is all about narrowing down your abilities, till your perception is honed towards specific tasks, if that precedent is removed in anyway (without any brain damage or deformity of the brain in the process of course). I think its fair to say you would have a less narrow and more true/open perception of reality.

Er... ok. I think there may be a misunderstanding of evolution. It's a
biochemical process that facilitates adaptation to constantly changing
environments. Considering the earliest known ancestor of humans are
sponges, I would have to assert that our abilities have been anything but
narrowed down.

Re-read what i wrote language and the need to be willing to include other interpretations of language.

I did and I fully stick with my assertion.

All of it.

Pick the biggest point of 'pain' then. We'll address that.

I only had the experience only once, i felt immersed in a pool of information/knowledge and felt incredibly euphoric, i recieved future information about a family members health, which turned out to be correct.
I also had the distinct knowledge at one point that i could quite easily remove my consciousness from my body and insert it into someone else. I say knowledge because it wasnt as if it was a thought or an idea that came into my head, i actually KNEW that i could do it if i wanted. I nearly did, but i realised it was reckless and that the knowledge that i could was quite enough for me.
Its such a hard experience to put into words to be honest, i fail everytime, that feeling of all encompassing knowledge is just indescribable

That's really cool. If it ever occurs again come prepared with some hard
questions and experiments. That will no doubt help understand what the
event is all about.

I hate bloody team meetings, i should learn to be a team player more i suppose...

It's one of those things... damned if you do and damned if you dont

I think you're trying to use a very played out argument in the wrong context, but i know what you're saying. Quite simply, the orbs that i was talking about could be seen to be giving off their own lightsource, ok maybe saying they are 'composed of light' is stretching it at bit. But their defining character seemed to be light, so its a good place to start in reference to them.
A lifeform because its a known fact that something that powers under its own accord, AND is able to change its direction/speed contrary to local gravity/weather patterns, must be intelligent to carry out these actions.
You could NOT substitute the easter bunny because it does not look like an easter bunny and its not carrying a basket of eggs.
You're trying to use a template argument without actually thinking it through, it doesnt fit in this instance.

A am not quite sure I understand what 'power under it's own accord means'.
Can this be ellaborated on. I know a speck of dust can change directions /
speed contrary to local gravity / weather patterns. It's so light that the
tiniest variations in air have big impacts on it; however, an airplane on
autopilot can change it's direction / speed contrary to local gravity / weather
patterns. It's certainly not intelligent...

Well when one of the guy's asked the spirit to move specific peices of furniture, i think that showed a degree of intelligence from what ever it was that was moving it, by my assesment anyway. You could not use the easter bunny substitute because there was no easter bunny pushing around the furniture, and from communicating with the entity is was established that it was a human being that had died and once lived in that house and was now a spirit.

Do we know the address of this house? It's sounds like a worthwhile
place to ask hard questions and make observations...

People more offen that not make atempts to communicate with entities in these situations, in most instances its useally estabished that these intelligences were once human, i.e. a ghost. I think from past cultural experience too when people experience poltergeist activity and materialisations people generally think 'ghost'.

People do alot of things and believe alot of things. It doesn't mean there
is a shred of truth to any of it.

I guess what im saying is all knowledge is there for the asking if you can manage to put your ego to one side, ive no idea how it works, although ive heard people put forward hypotheses such as in the holographic universe book (i think thats its title) to explain this. But whatever the case ive experienced this to be true first hand, but again, im not asking you to take my word for it, if you dont believe it i have no problem with that. But simply writting off such experiencs as brain generated illusions is reductionism at its very worst; you're debasing the mind to box of tricks thats super cool and can do crazy stuff.

Maybe this is that same effect as losing ones sense of self?

Theoritically yes, although in real terms ive seen footage of materialisations in the same program i was refering to earlier, and ive read multiple eye-witness accounts of ghosts (and other things) simply appearing ( and always with no preceeding burst of energy whatsoever).
I think because manifestations of this kind are weak light projections, rather than densely formed matter. With this in mind im going to have to disagree on that one. And in the case of the seance the manifestation was mostly the action itself.

Even the generation of photons is going to require energy transferrance.
Something would be measurable...

Thats a fallacy, theres a big difference between speculations that actually fit the situation, and speculations that simply attach a random cause.

That's a claim actually. Feel free to try and contradict it.

In all all serious its the barmiest thing anyones ever suggested to me...

Hopefully it will be considered as well.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I had a great HH this morning. My wife was snoring and I woke up in
sleep paralysis and opened by eyes. Nothing visual happened. About 3
seconds or so after opening my eyes, the 'inhaling' portion of my wife's
snore turned into a monsterous / metallic 'No' word, I felt pressure on my
body from above the covers, there was a hissing snake sound above me,
and there was a musical chord (3-notes) played with synthesized strings
one octave above middle C. Again, no visuals. After about 10 seconds
the HH ended as well as the sleep paralysis. My wife was actually very
lightly snoring and my original interpretation of heavy snoring (within the
first 3 seconds) may have been an audio hallucination. It was a really
cool experience and I wish there were some visuals that came with it.
Better luck next time I suppose?

 

[heliocentric]

Nope (to the first question). The books that discuss observations / research
of hallucination would be my recommendation.

Seems bit strange to recommend books you havent read how do you know they're any good?

Er... ok. I think there may be a misunderstanding of evolution. It's a
biochemical process that facilitates adaptation to constantly changing
environments. Considering the earliest known ancestor of humans are
sponges, I would have to assert that our abilities have been anything but
narrowed down.

I see what you're saying and your're right in a way, what i was trying to get across was that perception/abilities narrow down according to environment if that environment changes of course new abilities are evolved and old ones left behind. But i think its fair to say that if evolution is chiefly about molding to an environment, then you mearly become adept at that envorment, and to lesser extent others and to some not atall. Put simply even if the field of abilities changes its general scope will still remain narrow.

I did and I fully stick with my assertion.

Fair enough, just understand that your interpretation is no more valid or less valid than mine. Its just an interpretation that suits your methods best nothing more.

That's really cool. If it ever occurs again come prepared with some hard
questions and experiments. That will no doubt help understand what the
event is all about.

Always important to question, i couldnt agree more.

A am not quite sure I understand what 'power under it's own accord means'.
Can this be ellaborated on. I know a speck of dust can change directions /
speed contrary to local gravity / weather patterns. It's so light that the
tiniest variations in air have big impacts on it; however, an airplane on
autopilot can change it's direction / speed contrary to local gravity / weather
patterns. It's certainly not intelligent...

Its all in the way they moved, sure a tiny variation in air can displace a speck of dust and thats a very good point. Keep your eye on it long enough and you can see theres only one place its going to end up; on the ground. Its on a downward trajectory. Its at the mercy of air currents and gravity, its odvious that there is no intelligence at work. If i started seeing dust hover in the air for 3 seconds then shoot off in a straight line at 40 mph and then switch directions mid-flight and go back on its self however i might be willing to change my mind.
As for the plane on autopilot, im not sure thats a good example, could a machine be said to be intelligent? bit of a bone of contention when it comes to all that. Even if you concluded that a machine could never be intelligent youd have to conceed that there is an intelligence behind it (i.e. who ever programed it).

Do we know the address of this house? It's sounds like a worthwhile
place to ask hard questions and make observations...

i'll try and find out..

Maybe this is that same effect as losing ones sense of self?

Yep i think so, i think loosing your sense of self is integral to these kinds of revelations infact.

Even the generation of photons is going to require energy transferrance.
Something would be measurable...

The problem being working out what to meassure, how to meassure, and how to trace the source of the manifestation. Not an easy task

That's a claim actually. Feel free to try and contradict it.

Its just bad logic, as i pointed out.

Hopefully it will be considered as well.

Well since im a vegetarian its probably not on the cards.. :bugeye:

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Seems bit strange to recommend books you havent read how do you know they're any good?

I have offered stranger things (rats?) . The illusion of reality, Bentall
had some good reviews. Try starting with that one.


I see what you're saying and your're right in a way, what i was trying to get across was that perception/abilities narrow down according to environment if that environment changes of course new abilities are evolved and old ones left behind. But i think its fair to say that if evolution is chiefly about molding to an environment, then you mearly become adept at that envorment, and to lesser extent others and to some not atall. Put simply even if the field of abilities changes its general scope will still remain narrow.

I am still not sure I understand what 'narrowing' of abilities is. Consider
the eye. It starts off as photon detecting organ, changes to where
shape can be discered, changes to where depth can be discerend, and
changes to where photon wavelenths can be discerened (color).

Fair enough, just understand that your interpretation is no more valid or less valid than mine. Its just an interpretation that suits your methods best nothing more.

The interpretation is no more or less valid. That my inteprtation would be
shared by many people of similar background to me makes it significant.

Its all in the way they moved, sure a tiny variation in air can displace a speck of dust and thats a very good point. Keep your eye on it long enough and you can see theres only one place its going to end up; on the ground. Its on a downward trajectory. Its at the mercy of air currents and gravity, its odvious that there is no intelligence at work. If i started seeing dust hover in the air for 3 seconds then shoot off in a straight line at 40 mph and then switch directions mid-flight and go back on its self however i might be willing to change my mind.
As for the plane on autopilot, im not sure thats a good example, could a machine be said to be intelligent? bit of a bone of contention when it comes to all that. Even if you concluded that a machine could never be intelligent youd have to conceed that there is an intelligence behind it (i.e. who ever programed it).

If there are any documentaries of such 'orb' behaviors then it would be
great if I could be pointed in their general direction. I would love to see
a 3 second hover and a 40 mph shoot.

As a prior software developer I can tell you that the programs (even though
created by intelligence) in no way resemble intelligence (unless it's an AI
program). This directly applies to the airplane auto-pilot feature.

i'll try and find out..

Thanks!

Yep i think so, i think loosing your sense of self is integral to these kinds of revelations infact.

I agree that losing the sense of self is probably integral to the experience.
I am not sure I would classify them as 'revelations' at this point.

The problem being working out what to meassure, how to meassure, and how to trace the source of the manifestation. Not an easy task

Oh you are so right. I never said it was easy .

Its just bad logic, as i pointed out.

That's debatable and doesn't invalidate the truth.

 

[heliocentric]

I have offered stranger things (rats?) . The illusion of reality, Bentall
had some good reviews. Try starting with that one.

I had alook around on amazon for it hoping to find some reviews on it, but sadly they dont seem to have it in stock. I found alittle about his work on this page though http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/Consciousness/hallucinations_and_reality.htm

worth the read....

The interpretation is no more or less valid. That my inteprtation would be
shared by many people of similar background to me makes it significant.

Fair enough

If there are any documentaries of such 'orb' behaviors then it would be
great if I could be pointed in their general direction. I would love to see
a 3 second hover and a 40 mph shoot.

Yeah i dont hold much hope of finding any good footage on the net, it would take abit of digging i think.

As a prior software developer I can tell you that the programs (even though
created by intelligence) in no way resemble intelligence (unless it's an AI
program). This directly applies to the airplane auto-pilot feature.

Ironically enough i hear they're experimenting on using rat brain's to fly planes now (no really) : p

I agree that losing the sense of self is probably integral to the experience.
I am not sure I would classify them as 'revelations' at this point.

Well the word was only relevant to my personal experience, it felt like a side to reality was being revealed to me, so in my case its pretty apt.

That's debatable and doesn't invalidate the truth.

What truth is that?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I had alook around on amazon for it hoping to find some reviews on it, but sadly they dont seem to have it in stock. I found alittle about his work on this page though http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/Consciousness/hallucinations_and_reality.htm

worth the read....

You're right, it was worth the read. Apparently it sparked a very intelligent
and knowledable individual on a pseudo-religion site to create a nice
rebuttal. It's a great hypothesis that he raises and he didn't test it before
coming to the conclusion; however, this is moot. The reason for exploring
the Bentall media is simply for the sake of 'evidence'.

Yeah i dont hold much hope of finding any good footage on the net, it would take abit of digging i think.

I'm not even sure what to look for. Where there particular people involved?

Ironically enough i hear they're experimenting on using rat brain's to fly planes now (no really) : p

You are pretty much right on track there. Picture a flat layer of rat neurons
in a small peitri dish (containing neutrients to keep the neurons healthy) with
tiny electrodes touching contacting all the edges of the neurons. The
experiment is to see if the rat neurons can be taught to fly a plane with
manual positive and negative reinforcement charges mixed with 'visual' data
sent to the neurons. It's quite fascinating.

Well the word was only relevant to my personal experience, it felt like a side to reality was being revealed to me, so in my case its pretty apt.

Fair enough.

What truth is that?

[/QUOTE]

My claim that if an explanation does not exist then saying 'I don't know',
exploring, experimenting, and observing is likely going to result in truth;
whereas, not doing this and instead assigning a speculation that 'fits' is no
more than a substitute for truth.

 

[heliocentric]

You're right, it was worth the read. Apparently it sparked a very intelligent
and knowledable individual on a pseudo-religion site to create a nice
rebuttal. It's a great hypothesis that he raises and he didn't test it before
coming to the conclusion; however, this is moot. The reason for exploring
the Bentall media is simply for the sake of 'evidence'.

From what i understood from reading the link there really doesnt see to be much evidence atall to bentall's work, rather he examined some subjects and then came up with some ideas about what might be going on. Simply running tests and comming to conclusions that you think might explain it isnt really what evidence is. In fact its speculation ironically enough.

I'm not even sure what to look for. Where there particular people involved?

I cant recall the names of investigators etc but i'll have a dig tonight and get back to you either way..

You are pretty much right on track there. Picture a flat layer of rat neurons
in a small peitri dish (containing neutrients to keep the neurons healthy) with
tiny electrodes touching contacting all the edges of the neurons. The
experiment is to see if the rat neurons can be taught to fly a plane with
manual positive and negative reinforcement charges mixed with 'visual' data
sent to the neurons. It's quite fascinating.

Yep i remember reading about it in nature i think it was a while ago, the cyborgs are apon us!

My claim that if an explanation does not exist then saying 'I don't know',
exploring, experimenting, and observing is likely going to result in truth;
whereas, not doing this and instead assigning a speculation that 'fits' is no
more than a substitute for truth.

I see where you're comming from, and yes exploration and observing are crucial to any kind of truth you want to obtain. But as i said before if you refuse to speculate then you have no ideas or hypotheses with which to work with.

No ideas.....nothing to test.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

From what i understood from reading the link there really doesnt see to be much evidence atall to bentall's work, rather he examined some subjects and then came up with some ideas about what might be going on. Simply running tests and comming to conclusions that you think might explain it isnt really what evidence is. In fact its speculation ironically enough.

It was my bad for miscommunicating something. I saw some Bentall
reviews + that link you posted. Both look very promising. The evidence
of hallucination I am referring to will be found in the experiments /
observations within the actual book itself. It's very possible it can be
found at a local library as it's been around for a while.

I cant recall the names of investigators etc but i'll have a dig tonight and get back to you either way..

Thank you sir!

Yep i remember reading about it in nature i think it was a while ago, the cyborgs are apon us!

As long as I get a rat-borg for $19.95 that can cook me breakfast, I'll be
happy!

I see where you're comming from, and yes exploration and observing are crucial to any kind of truth you want to obtain. But as i said before if you refuse to speculate then you have no ideas or hypotheses with which to work with.

No ideas.....nothing to test.

Ahh gotacha. For people who don't specialize in something, they would
have at least learned a little bit about reality while growing up. That can
act as a base for which ideas to test can be generated (no matter how
rudimentary). Of course, lack of specialization doesn't stop a person from
making raw observations and 'trying things'... ideas to test can spawn from
that as well. The process of 'Speculation' may be good to get the ol'
creative juices going... creativity helps when coming up with ideas and it
doesn't even have to be a truth-substitute.

 

[grapetonix]

I remember attending a maths lecture one dark, cruel November morning. I was so immensely tired I barely knew who I was, the lecture was boring; all this resulted in me having Grade-A realistic audiovisual hallucinations. Every now and then a tray of coffee and snacks or laptop would appear at my writing area, to disappear a couple seconds after. Also, "gurgeling" sounds and voices came from some "distant horizon" in front of me (not that I know what that horizon was, it was just the feeling - I kind of "heard the imagery").

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I remember attending a maths lecture one dark, cruel November morning. I was so immensely tired I barely knew who I was, the lecture was boring; all this resulted in me having Grade-A realistic audiovisual hallucinations. Every now and then a tray of coffee and snacks or laptop would appear at my writing area, to disappear a couple seconds after. Also, "gurgeling" sounds and voices came from some "distant horizon" in front of me (not that I know what that horizon was, it was just the feeling - I kind of "heard the imagery").

This is awesome. I am seeing alot of verification of HHs occuring when
very tired.

 

[lordofkaamos]

Options in hypnagonic images

Hi every body:

I dont know if anybaody in this thread will reply this post. But i just wanna tell you my experience with hypnagonic images and sounds. I always, always have had hypnagonic images, i´ve seen really, really great things. Since i was child i had it, only recently i knew the name of this phenomena. I´ve heard absolutely beautifulll musical pieces, musical pieces that doen´t exist, sometimes i think that if i would be mussician, i could be richhh, but dont. Hypnagonic imaginery and hypnagonic sounds are a great tool to begin to expriment lucid dreams, near of a yera ago one of my best friends told me abuot lucid dreamming has been GREAT!!!!!!!. Hypnagonic imagenery is de door to cross this world beyond to dreamland, the tecnic is named WILD in lucid dreamming community. When i was only a child these imageas was absolutely crazy, images of creation and destruction, mosntres, horrible sounds, beautifull music, one day being a child i told myself : 'I´m not gonna fall in fear with that sounds and images', i understood that it was only me, it´s only me processing information and i became to explore that state of my mind.One of my wildest hypnagonic picture was into the void, in the middle of the void was an spiral of DNA, i saw every atom, in a moment every atom opened and every atom was an eye, others was mouths, spoken in diferente languagues. Some people could believe that i´m un drugs, but not, i think i dont need that. I´ve seen a lot of weird and beautifull things, i´ve felt strange entities and i´ve used this to travel conscient into my dreams, altought that i´ve never tougtht that i´m crazy or something like that, that make part of me and i´m a person just like other in this world

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Hi every body:

I dont know if anybaody in this thread will reply this post. But i just wanna tell you my experience with hypnagonic images and sounds. I always, always have had hypnagonic images, i´ve seen really, really great things. Since i was child i had it, only recently i knew the name of this phenomena. I´ve heard absolutely beautifulll musical pieces, musical pieces that doen´t exist, sometimes i think that if i would be mussician, i could be richhh, but dont. Hypnagonic imaginery and hypnagonic sounds are a great tool to begin to expriment lucid dreams, near of a yera ago one of my best friends told me abuot lucid dreamming has been GREAT!!!!!!!. Hypnagonic imagenery is de door to cross this world beyond to dreamland, the tecnic is named WILD in lucid dreamming community. When i was only a child these imageas was absolutely crazy, images of creation and destruction, mosntres, horrible sounds, beautifull music, one day being a child i told myself : 'I´m not gonna fall in fear with that sounds and images', i understood that it was only me, it´s only me processing information and i became to explore that state of my mind.One of my wildest hypnagonic picture was into the void, in the middle of the void was an spiral of DNA, i saw every atom, in a moment every atom opened and every atom was an eye, others was mouths, spoken in diferente languagues. Some people could believe that i´m un drugs, but not, i think i dont need that. I´ve seen a lot of weird and beautifull things, i´ve felt strange entities and i´ve used this to travel conscient into my dreams, altought that i´ve never tougtht that i´m crazy or something like that, that make part of me and i´m a person just like other in this world

It sounds like you're the dream master by the nature of that content . I was confused about something. Hypnogogia and Lucid Dreaming appeared to be used interchangeably in the paragraph above; however, they are seperate forms of hallucination and I was unable to tell what was what? Mind clarifying a little?

Dream - Achieving consciousness and hallucinating while asleep (Roughly).
Lucid Dream - Realizing a dream is a dream while in the process of dreaming and optinally controlling it to various degrees (Roughly).
Hypnogogic Hallucination - Hallucinating while awake (usually when first waking up -often combined with temporary paralysis-). The hallucination is superimposed upon real sensory input.

 

[lordofkaamos]

Hypnagonic to pass to dreamland

Hi CrunchyCat:

I agree with you hypnagonic images and lucid dreams are diferent mental states. I always have had hypnagonic images, but until a year ago a friend taugth me to be lucid in my dreams, without using hypnagonic images. I´ve read much, i read about a technique named WILD, this technique is easy for me, ´cause i began to see crazy images being awake, and in one point is weird but i´m into a deep mental state following the images and sounds, but slowly hypnagonic images begin to take coherence, in that point i can 'cross a soft veil' and touch one image immediatly i realize that i´m dreamming and begin to explore, but i can feel the difference in my head, are two very different mental states. Never before i thougth that it was possible, hypnagonic was normal for me, i learnt to enjoy the experience, but not at the point of being lucid into a dream, learn to cross 'awake' betwen both worlds was a great and AMAZING step for me . I dont agree that i´m a dream master, may be someday, i´m still learning and for me every nigth is an adventure, no matter if lucid or not.

See ya

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Hi CrunchyCat:

I agree with you hypnagonic images and lucid dreams are diferent mental states. I always have had hypnagonic images, but until a year ago a friend taugth me to be lucid in my dreams, without using hypnagonic images. I´ve read much, i read about a technique named WILD, this technique is easy for me, ´cause i began to see crazy images being awake, and in one point is weird but i´m into a deep mental state following the images and sounds, but slowly hypnagonic images begin to take coherence, in that point i can 'cross a soft veil' and touch one image immediatly i realize that i´m dreamming and begin to explore, but i can feel the difference in my head, are two very different mental states. Never before i thougth that it was possible, hypnagonic was normal for me, i learnt to enjoy the experience, but not at the point of being lucid into a dream, learn to cross 'awake' betwen both worlds was a great and AMAZING step for me . I dont agree that i´m a dream master, may be someday, i´m still learning and for me every nigth is an adventure, no matter if lucid or not.

See ya

That first sentence and the rest of the paragraph seem to be contradicting each other; however, in looking up WILD I think what you might be trying to say is that the period where you are in a hypnogogic hallucination is a great time to slip right back into REM sleep without a discontinuation in consciousness... meaning that you can realize you were originally in a hypnogogic hallucination and by default automatically know you are dreaming (i.e. become lucid) once you transition back to REM sleep. Assuming my interpretation is correct then yes that is a pretty nifty way to achieve lucidity in a dream.

I am a pretty hefty lucid dreamer and I have used many techniques throughout my life to achieve lucidity and the one that really stuck for me was training myself to ask the question 'is this real?' and knowing that if I have to ask then the answer is 100% 'No'... hence automatic dream recognition