never fly with Muslim pilot
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...g-emergency-action-plane-crash-killed-16.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...g-emergency-action-plane-crash-killed-16.html
Muslim pilot prayed instead of taking emergency action to land plane... 16 dead
- Thread starter scorpius
- Start date
This would've fit well in the Absurdities Of Religion thread.
It's sad & I suspect this kind of thing happens much more than we're aware of.
It's sad & I suspect this kind of thing happens much more than we're aware of.
You have to wonder how many people would have "Oh my God" when the thing was going down. Just because he chose to pray and say it in his native tongue, hes a criminal. Funny stuff. Forget the fact that he saved peoples lives because of a fault that he possibly couldnt have known about. Funny stuff
Hey, it worked. He's still kicking. The Lord works in mysterious ways (cough!)
According to the article he's in jail because he paused and panicked before doing the emergency procedure.
Not because of praying...
Spin makes for "good" headlines
From the article:
I can't imagine this kind of sentencing in the US, even if the pilot showed this degree of insolence. You take a certain degree of risk getting on a flight, and the company takes a large degree of responsibility in hiring competent pilots.
how was it insolence?
He froze which is one of the responces to a stressful situation, flight, fight or frezze. He then managed to pull himself out of that and save the lives of the people he could.
Lets look at an example, say that in the responce to the victorian bush fires, the twin towers incident, the tsnarmie ect a single responder had frozen on arival and said "shit, what the fuck" or something similar. You going to blame him for the deaths that followed or are you going to accept that its a normal responce to the bodie's stress coping being overwhelmed due to an acute situation. Hell i had trouble getting first aiders to actually follow there own first aid protocals for a badly sprained ankle and thats with 2 of us being well trained in emergency care and they STILL wanted to fight me on the treatment (and that was just an ice pack, god help me if she was having a heart atack)
what idocy, they should be getting praise not jail
He froze which is one of the responces to a stressful situation, flight, fight or frezze. He then managed to pull himself out of that and save the lives of the people he could.
Lets look at an example, say that in the responce to the victorian bush fires, the twin towers incident, the tsnarmie ect a single responder had frozen on arival and said "shit, what the fuck" or something similar. You going to blame him for the deaths that followed or are you going to accept that its a normal responce to the bodie's stress coping being overwhelmed due to an acute situation. Hell i had trouble getting first aiders to actually follow there own first aid protocals for a badly sprained ankle and thats with 2 of us being well trained in emergency care and they STILL wanted to fight me on the treatment (and that was just an ice pack, god help me if she was having a heart atack)
what idocy, they should be getting praise not jail
Bells
Staff member
This is why I hate flying..
I think it's the fact that he and his co-pilot stopped to pray before doing anything that has landed them in jail. I mean come on.. you're piloting a plane, it's going down and instead of doing what you can to make sure you ditch safely, you stop doing everything to pray first?:bugeye: What? They couldn't multi-task?
A point to note from this article:
Emphasis added, because, well, I felt like it.
I think it's the fact that he and his co-pilot stopped to pray before doing anything that has landed them in jail. I mean come on.. you're piloting a plane, it's going down and instead of doing what you can to make sure you ditch safely, you stop doing everything to pray first?:bugeye: What? They couldn't multi-task?
Err no. He, along with his co-pilot, froze, panicked and then started praying. After that was done, he and his co-pilot started following the emergency procedures. A pilot isn't meant to panic and freeze and start praying before doing what he's meant to do. He's meant to do what he's meant to do, panic on the inside and then pray afterward or even during. But the first thing he's meant to do is do his job and what he is trained to do first.. that being following emergency procedure. Not stop to pray first.Asguard said:
A point to note from this article:
Emphasis added, because, well, I felt like it.
Bells
Staff member
So the body's normal response is to stop everything and pray first?
Pilots go through extensive training to deal with situation of engine's failing, running out of fuel, etc. And I don't think 'stop doing anything and everything and pray first' is at the top of the priority list of things to do first, do you?
I'll give you an example. Lets say you are a doctor in an emergency room. 10 ambulances arrive simultaneously carrying critical patients, all of whom require urgent care. Do you stop, along with the other doctors and nurses on duty, to pray first, saving only a few of the patients? Or do you say "shit" and jump into procedure and, you know, doing your job?
bells what would your reaction be if all your engins suddenly stopped?
to give an example from my world, an ambulance is called out cat 2 (lights and sirens) to a car crash and finds this:
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4178476642
http://www.ema.gov.au/ema/emadisast...7437bb0ab8cd1f85ca257307000ef726?OpenDocument
Whats your first reaction (even as a trained paramedic)?
there are 2 acronims the actual ambos teach us at uni:
OGIH- Oh God its horible (MCI level 1-2)
OGIFH- Oh God is fucking horible (MCI level 2-3)
Basically when the operators get these they actually have to take control of the ETHANE report from the ambos alot of the time because they are simply overwhelmed by what they are seeing.
I think finding that all of your engins are suddenly not working counts as something which would overwhelm most people, even those trained to handle situations
to give an example from my world, an ambulance is called out cat 2 (lights and sirens) to a car crash and finds this:
http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=4178476642
http://www.ema.gov.au/ema/emadisast...7437bb0ab8cd1f85ca257307000ef726?OpenDocument
Whats your first reaction (even as a trained paramedic)?
there are 2 acronims the actual ambos teach us at uni:
OGIH- Oh God its horible (MCI level 1-2)
OGIFH- Oh God is fucking horible (MCI level 2-3)
Basically when the operators get these they actually have to take control of the ETHANE report from the ambos alot of the time because they are simply overwhelmed by what they are seeing.
I think finding that all of your engins are suddenly not working counts as something which would overwhelm most people, even those trained to handle situations
Bells
Staff member
Me personally? I'd pass out cold.
That is why I am not a pilot and never will be one.
You're not quite getting it.
These pilots stopped doing everything to pray first. It wasn't a matter of "Oh my God, help me".. they both stopped doing everything and prayed.. after the panicked few seconds that is, as you say, natural in such a situation, they started to pray and then started to follow procedure.
Now, tell me Asguard. Lets say you are called out to an accident such as the one you posted. What would you say if you saw your fellow paramedic drop to his knees and say a few 'Hail Mary's' before even radioing for help or even going close to see if anyone is even alive?
i honestly dont know, i would HOPE that i wouldnt be one of the people paralised but it is something which has happened to me before (before i actually started this training i must admit, i was a civilan at a fatal M\B crash in victoria and when i saw the extent of the guys injuries i froze and then fleed on the pretence of going back for my mobile to call the ambos, seeing a guys spine ripped from his body wasnt something i was ready for). First time people see that sort of stuff alot of them throw up insted of treating, others rush right in and get the job done. We HOPE that as people get more and more exposed to these sorts of incidences there reaction will tend towards the treat but some people cant handle it and do quit after incidence like this. I just hope that when its me im one of the ones who treats rather than faints or throws up but i cant garentie that.
Some people even end up running away from incidence that would be concidered routine because they have simply reached there breaking point as far as the chronic stress is concerned.
Im surprised that your unwilling to give them the benifit of the doubt, they had no one else to turn to, they were compleatly alone and there plane had just shut down all of its engins and they probably didnt have a clue why. To be quite frank with you i have thought ALOT about this recently, this semester is when it gets serious and i go out on the emerg trucks and i have no idea what i will get. It could well BE that, alot of my friends last year had hangings on there first placements (5-6 with in a week) and i dont know how they coped with it or how i will and to be honest the thought that i would run away rather than doing my job scares me. No one can tell how they will react when push comes to shove, no matter how many simulations you do. It may well have been correct that they lose there jobs, though its possable they could have been retrained and would have reacted differently next time. But to throw them in jail for 10 years over it is ridiculas
Some people even end up running away from incidence that would be concidered routine because they have simply reached there breaking point as far as the chronic stress is concerned.
Im surprised that your unwilling to give them the benifit of the doubt, they had no one else to turn to, they were compleatly alone and there plane had just shut down all of its engins and they probably didnt have a clue why. To be quite frank with you i have thought ALOT about this recently, this semester is when it gets serious and i go out on the emerg trucks and i have no idea what i will get. It could well BE that, alot of my friends last year had hangings on there first placements (5-6 with in a week) and i dont know how they coped with it or how i will and to be honest the thought that i would run away rather than doing my job scares me. No one can tell how they will react when push comes to shove, no matter how many simulations you do. It may well have been correct that they lose there jobs, though its possable they could have been retrained and would have reacted differently next time. But to throw them in jail for 10 years over it is ridiculas
Life goes on ... for the living
I think the important point is being outshined by the detail:
People are human. These two, unfortunately, didn't have what it took. I can't make any cultural judgment on this. I'm an American, and we've had planes crash because the pilot had seventeen rum and diet cokes prior to takeoff. Not everybody has the right stuff for what they're doing. Unfortunately, some of those people have the lives of others depending on them.
Life goes on. For the living.
I think the important point is being outshined by the detail:
(1) The pilot and co-pilot screwed up.
(2)It's religion's fault! The pilot and co-pilot screwed up.
(3)It's religion's fault! The pilot and co-pilot screwed up.
(4)It's religion's fault! The pilot and co-pilot screwed up.
(5)It's religion's fault! The pilot and co-pilot screwed up.
(6) &c., and so on, ad infinitum ....
(2)
(3)
(4)
(5)
(6) &c., and so on, ad infinitum ....
People are human. These two, unfortunately, didn't have what it took. I can't make any cultural judgment on this. I'm an American, and we've had planes crash because the pilot had seventeen rum and diet cokes prior to takeoff. Not everybody has the right stuff for what they're doing. Unfortunately, some of those people have the lives of others depending on them.
Life goes on. For the living.
My guess is that the muslim pilots used prayer as a device to control themselves before taking emergency measures. Sort of like taking a deep breath, only of course it turns out to be several with some stretches of talking to some invisible dude in between. Not good.
That, of course, is assuming they actually did that. The article states the lawyers "claimed" they did this. Well, there is a black box, and flight recordings. Did they or didn't they?
It ain't hard, media boys.
Against that, we have another guy who, religious or not, assesses the situation, makes a decision and lands his plane in a river. No casualties.
See, this isn't about religion. This is about a couple of twits who were incapable of making fast decisions under extreme pressure without advice, higher power or no, given a responsibility they were apparently not ready for.
Reaction time is critical in any emergency situation. If these guys did take the time to pray, S.A.M, then do not seek to wave red herrings in front of the audience by claiming the ground crew should be the ones in jail.
That may be true. And it appears they are.
But it does not excuse the pilots actions in any shape or form.
Not that I'd expect much else from you. And we don't need to ask how different your post might have been had the pilots been israelis, do we?
Ad Hominem is fun.
The simple fact is that any good pilot would have done would he needed to do, and then bang his head on the ground to whatever sky-being he desires after getting down safely. Preferably without the usual CNN-style "I owe it all to god" crap afterwards. Privately, thank you very much.
That, of course, is assuming they actually did that. The article states the lawyers "claimed" they did this. Well, there is a black box, and flight recordings. Did they or didn't they?
It ain't hard, media boys.
Against that, we have another guy who, religious or not, assesses the situation, makes a decision and lands his plane in a river. No casualties.
See, this isn't about religion. This is about a couple of twits who were incapable of making fast decisions under extreme pressure without advice, higher power or no, given a responsibility they were apparently not ready for.
Reaction time is critical in any emergency situation. If these guys did take the time to pray, S.A.M, then do not seek to wave red herrings in front of the audience by claiming the ground crew should be the ones in jail.
That may be true. And it appears they are.
But it does not excuse the pilots actions in any shape or form.
Not that I'd expect much else from you. And we don't need to ask how different your post might have been had the pilots been israelis, do we?
Ad Hominem is fun.
The simple fact is that any good pilot would have done would he needed to do, and then bang his head on the ground to whatever sky-being he desires after getting down safely. Preferably without the usual CNN-style "I owe it all to god" crap afterwards. Privately, thank you very much.
But that is when you are training, that's normal, trainees are expected to make mistakes. That's why they are supervised. If I were lying broken and bloodied on the road, and the qualified paramedic who was meant to stabilise me lost his nerve and started to pray instead of treating me, I'd be more than a little pissed. Why is he in the job if he can't cope?
Because they saved 16 lives on a plane where they thought they had more fuel than they did?
According to the report
So the passengers would have been better off if they land on ground instead of water? If they had landed a couple minutes earlier? He did a textbook case of crash landing, without fuel. I don't know anything about planes, but I fail to see what he could have done without fuel.