Muslim Morality

[S.A.M.]

:yawn:

Ad hominem. Is "contentless" a word? I point out the failings of islamic politics, you complain about everyone and anything instead of just stating your opinion.

The very fact that you cannot even gauge my opinion but presume to gauge that of those who wrote in a different language over a thousand years ago is an indication of your sincerity in this discussion. And you're still harping about things you don't comprehend. Islamic politics? There was Islam in Iran and Afghanistan for a thousand years before 1952 and 1970 respectively.

 

[GeoffP]

Then, instead of offering me your gauge, perhaps you should simply express your opinion. My discussion is eminently sincere: I answer, I offer my opinion, I defend it. Only you - and a select cadre of misfits - avoids it, thinking it better to keep silent and be thought a fool, perhaps, than the other thing.

Oh, I comprehend those things quite well. There was an islam for a long time - 1400 years. And all that time, the rights and the wants of their religious minorities were slowly, steadily encroached, shoved back into their quarters, further and further, and all in the name of religious purity and triumphalism, and supremacism. This was also true of many other societies in that time; but since then, many have thrown off legalized discrimination against religious minorities, homosexuals and women. These latter are not perfect, of course - but the issue is that I do not defend their failings with tu quoque and hand-wringing and casting blame in all directions but at the roots of those failings; of inequity and hostility. You, on the other hand, defend the political failings of your faith over and over, unending; you seem little different from DH, who once opined that he would indeed turn over anyone leaving islam to the (in)appropriate religious authority. That is no small leap back - into the 17th century, I believe - and when it is done by infidels, you decry it. But when it is done by your coreligionists - what? You spring to the attack - against the messenger.

Maybe it is a different Messenger with whom you need have such vociferous conversation.

 

[S.A.M.]

I have already offered my opinions on these subjects and specifically to you, too.

As I already said to Michael, does repeating the same question several times change the answer?

Do you even know a minority person who has lived in the Middle East?

 

[GeoffP]

I have already offered my opinions on these subjects and specifically to you, too.

You have not done so to me that I recall. Indulge me anyway: what is your opinion on apostacy?

As I already said to Michael, does repeating the same question several times change the answer?

For some people, at some times, apparently.

Do you even know a minority person who has lived in the Middle East?

Oh, my. First off: this is argument from authority yet again. Have you ever been to Mars? The moon, even? Do your rats suffer pain? Does Australia exist? How do you know?

Anyway, to let up on hammering you: yes, several, as I've already mentioned. A Lebanese guy whose family came over here about 30 years ago, a Lebanese woman who's a friend of my mother-in-law. I also knew a Zoroastrian postdoc from Iran. An Egyptian girl who was muslim but had many of the same concerns I have about political religion of any kind. A smattering of others. I expect I'll have the chance to know more as they flee their ancient homeland in droves, driven by the love of their fellow citizens and the government that protects their hatred.

 

[Michael]

The religion that believes in the oneness of God and accepts Mohammed as a Prophet. In its simplest terms, that is all it is.

Bahai?

 

[Michael]

Is that when I am picking an choosing the tradition which suits my views, regardless of supporting citations?

Do you agree with DiamondHearts assertion that "All the Quran in existence today are the exact same. You will not find any discrepancies in any Quran from Maghrib to Indonesia, they are the same. This is a confirmation of the Quran that it cannot be changed."

You argue that, perhaps, the most respected Islamic Historian is full of it. Well, there is no way to "prove" the point. The Arab News source by extension is full of it too because they rely on this historian. Then you back track and say well maybe some of it’s true – if it’s been copied by someone else. This sort of takes us nowhere and this thread isn’t suppose to be about the veracity of a Historians writings or writings attributed to the Historian.

So, with that in mind, lets do away with weather or not something did or did not happen and just talk about the morals in the story.


In this story:

"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."


On the topic of morality:
Is it moral or is immoral to instruct someone to kill the two slave girls for singing songs that are full of abuse?

There are two choices here
1) moral
2) immoral

Which do you choose?

Thanks
Michael

 

[Michael]

another notable ex-member of sciforums noted for his refutation of conventional science on the basis that no one could understand his theory; it was his alone, to understand and hold. His very own. His precious.

LOL

 

[Michael]

You'd not get a single Muslim educated in the Quran or fiqh to support your interpretations; but if you're representing the morons then thats fine.

What exactly is GeoffP's interpretation and how are those sources of information normally interpreted?

 

[GeoffP]

You'd not get a single Muslim educated in the Quran or fiqh to support your interpretations; but if you're representing the morons then thats fine.

Reeeeally? I had no idea. I guess all those islamic authorities imposing jizya and the like on the conquered natives of the Middle East were morons, then. And Mohammed, too, for first saying that "oppression was worse than slaughter" and then opining that the People of the Book must be "made to pay the jizya with both hands". I guess all of Hamas would fall into that group also, since they're so attached to the marriage of mosque and state. Pakistan too. Come to think of it, I don't recall any islamic governments setting out to define such a split. I suppose they're morons also. Actually, I think I could agree with that.

Anyway, come on, then: what are my interpretations? Does no one support them? Not 40% of the islamic community in a recent set of polls, I assume.

 

[S.A.M.]

Reeeeally? I had no idea. I guess all those islamic authorities imposing jizya and the like on the conquered natives of the Middle East were morons, then. And Mohammed, too, for first saying that "oppression was worse than slaughter" and then opining that the People of the Book must be "made to pay the jizya with both hands". I guess all of Hamas would fall into that group also, since they're so attached to the marriage of mosque and state. Pakistan too. Come to think of it, I don't recall any islamic governments setting out to define such a split. I suppose they're morons also. Actually, I think I could agree with that.

Anyway, come on, then: what are my interpretations? Does no one support them? Not 40% of the islamic community in a recent set of polls, I assume.

Give it up Geoff, floundering is so unmanly.

 

[S.A.M.]

What exactly is GeoffP's interpretation and how are those sources of information normally interpreted?

Have I been speaking Arabic so far?

 

[S.A.M.]

Bahai?

If they accept monotheism and Mohammed as a Prophet, they are Muslim.

Do they accept the shahada?

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you agree with DiamondHearts assertion that "All the Quran in existence today are the exact same. You will not find any discrepancies in any Quran from Maghrib to Indonesia, they are the same. This is a confirmation of the Quran that it cannot be changed."

You argue that, perhaps, the most respected Islamic Historian is full of it. Well, there is no way to "prove" the point. The Arab News source by extension is full of it too because they rely on this historian. Then you back track and say well maybe some of it’s true – if it’s been copied by someone else. This sort of takes us nowhere and this thread isn’t suppose to be about the veracity of a Historians writings or writings attributed to the Historian.

So, with that in mind, lets do away with weather or not something did or did not happen and just talk about the morals in the story.


In this story:

"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."


On the topic of morality:
Is it moral or is immoral to instruct someone to kill the two slave girls for singing songs that are full of abuse?

There are two choices here
1) moral
2) immoral

Which do you choose?

Thanks
Michael

How does reciting another tradition change anything? Do you accept the tradition (with many citations) that the moon was split? Is your "story" cited for accuracy? What is your basis for accepting or rejecting a "story"? What do you mean when you say lets just discuss the morals? This is a pointless discussion if you don't define your parameters.

 

[S.A.M.]

You have not done so to me that I recall. Indulge me anyway: what is your opinion on apostacy?



For some people, at some times, apparently.



Oh, my. First off: this is argument from authority yet again. Have you ever been to Mars? The moon, even? Do your rats suffer pain? Does Australia exist? How do you know?

Anyway, to let up on hammering you: yes, several, as I've already mentioned. A Lebanese guy whose family came over here about 30 years ago, a Lebanese woman who's a friend of my mother-in-law. I also knew a Zoroastrian postdoc from Iran. An Egyptian girl who was muslim but had many of the same concerns I have about political religion of any kind. A smattering of others. I expect I'll have the chance to know more as they flee their ancient homeland in droves, driven by the love of their fellow citizens and the government that protects their hatred.

So you've already made up your mind about all Muslims. Thanks. That was exactly what I wanted to know. You can also decide what my position is, just look up Muslim position on apostacy on jihadwatch.com for my position on any argument related to Islam, the Quran, the Hadith, etc.

Note to Michael: I suggest you get familiar with this website; you'll find many of their arguments strangely compelling, echoing with truth and conviction, notwithstanding the Arabic speaking ability or anonymous nature (due to barbaric Muslims at their heels with swords, of course) of many of their contributers. Or the fact that it is run by neorepublicans..

 

[Michael]

Is your "story" cited for accuracy? What is your basis for accepting or rejecting a "story"?

The story as printed from the News agency ArabNews.com.

Here is the story they printed:

"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."

This is a pointless discussion if you don't define your parameters.

OK: to start the discussion the parameter is defined as to determine whether you, the reader, thinks that the protagonist in the story acted morally or immorally.


The question is phrased: Is it moral or is immoral to instruct someone to kill the two slave girls for singing songs that are full of abuse?

There are two choices here
1) moral
2) immoral


Thanks
Michael

 

[Michael]

Also:

Do you agree with DiamondHearts assertion that "All the Quran in existence today are the exact same. You will not find any discrepancies in any Quran from Maghrib to Indonesia, they are the same. This is a confirmation of the Quran that it cannot be changed."


Thanks
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

The story as printed from the News agency ArabNews.com.

Here is the story they printed:

"Abdullah ibn Khatal used to be a Muslim. The Prophet once sent him to collect zakah from people who lived far away. He traveled with another man and a servant of his who was a Muslim. At one stage on the way they stopped. He gave the servant orders to slaughter a big goat and prepare food for him while he himself went to sleep. When he woke up, he discovered that the servant had not done anything. He killed his servant and, fearing the Prophet’s punishment, reverted to idolatry. He also had two slave girls who used to sing for him and for his companions songs full of abuse of the Prophet. The Prophet’s instructions specified that the two slave girls should also be killed. The man was killed as he was actually holding on to the coverings of the Kaaba. Abu Barzah Al-Aslami and Saeed ibn Hurayth Al-Makhzumi killed him along with one of his slave girls. The other managed to flee until someone sought a special pardon for her from the Prophet, which he granted."

OK: to start the discussion the parameter is defined as to determine whether you, the reader, thinks that the protagonist in the story acted morally or immorally.


The question is phrased: Is it moral or is immoral to instruct someone to kill the two slave girls for singing songs that are full of abuse?

There are two choices here
1) moral
2) immoral


Thanks
Michael

Now I'm pissed.:bugeye:

Bugger off. Do you believe this story? Why? Because it was given by a Christian missionary? Even there there are no other citations to back it up? If you believe this story, do you believe the more highly cited story about the moon split, if not why not?

PS adding bold and color (or waving arms and shouting) does not change a question or make it more relevant.

 

[S.A.M.]

Also:

Do you agree with DiamondHearts assertion that "All the Quran in existence today are the exact same. You will not find any discrepancies in any Quran from Maghrib to Indonesia, they are the same. This is a confirmation of the Quran that it cannot be changed."


Thanks
Michael

Again, Bugger off.

I've already answered this, if it's not the answer you are expecting, then that is not my problem.

 

[Huwy]

poor aisha

 

[S.A.M.]

poor aisha

Why? Because the Arabs don't lead Western lifestyles? Where NAMBLA is the more acceptable lifestyle?