Muslim Morality

[DiamondHearts]

Sis Sam, it has been a real pleasure reading your responses.

Don't mind Geoff and Michael as they are two of the same kind of xenophobic mindset. Upon close observation one discovers that the majority of their arguments are fabricated and play on the ignorance of most people on this forum of Islam.

Have a good day, and don't worry yourself with these two.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thank you DiamondHearts.

Always a pleasure.

Take care and have a good night yourself.

 

[Michael]

Historians?


Ibn Ishaq collected oral traditions; he himself claimed there was no way to verify them, since he collected them from everyone, even the Jewish scholars.

Oral traditions include all stories about the ME, including 1001 Nights.

Its the citations that make them historical.

And we have no idea what Ibn Ishaq wrote since both his and his students work have not survived, only some bits and pieces and translations by Guillaume of Hishams work.

Only what has survived of Ishaq's work supported by other work like that of Tabari or other historians is given any credence.

The exact same argument can be made against the Qur'an.
So as there are no original copies of the Qur'an then Sam says the Qur'an is worthless as a Historical record. No one knows who wrote down which parts of the Qur'an, No one knows when they were collected and who collected which bits, No one even knows the bloody day the thing was considered a cannon. No one knows what the exact names of the people that contributed what to which part, when they did so and who authorized what to go where and to what criteria. For all we know the thing could just be copied from Xian, Zoroastrian and Jewish sources. There is no way to verify anything in the Qur'an.

Yes Sam, using your very own rational you just argued the uselessness of taking anything in the Qur'an as anything other than suspect.

Yet Sam would never ever hold the Qur'an up to such scrutiny. No no no Michael, that I just will not and can not do. It's magical. Floated down from heaven with the pixies Pffff :roflmao:



Lets just see what WIKI says shall we.

1) Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasar, or simply Ibn Ishaq (Arabic: ابن إسحاق, meaning "the son of Isaac") (died 761) (Robinson 2003, p. xv) was an Arab Muslim historian.

2) "Muslims believe that these biographies are for the most part accurate portrayals of Muhammad.."


See quite simple really; So are we in agreement?
Michael

PS:
The point is that the Qu'ran, while no one knows anything about the people that made it, it is taken as a reliable source of information about Mohammad and what he said and what the voices in his head told him. As a matter of fact, Sam, you think the Qur'an is perfect. The most perfect book ever. Absolutely perfect. Not only is it a reliable source, it's irrefutable proof Mohammad was the Last Prophet! Yet there are no originals and the oldest are different from the newest.

Which is why I said "Islamic tradition" originally. Traditionally the Qu'ran is held to be accurate by the majority of Muslims. NOT ALL - but most. Some think it is corrupted and thus there are these new religions that crop up from time to time - take the Bahai or the tea-cup Muslims for example.

 

[S.A.M.]

The exact same argument can be made against the Qur'an.
So as there are no original copies of the Qur'an then Sam says the Qur'an is worthless as a Historical record. No one knows who wrote down which parts of the Qur'an, No one knows when they were collected and who collected which bits, No one even knows the bloody day the thing was considered a cannon. No one knows who what were the exact names of the people that contributed what to which part, when they did so and who authorized what to go where and to what criteria.

Yes Sam, using your very own rational you just argued the uselessness of taking anything in the Qur'an as anything other than suspect.

Yet Sam would never ever hold the Qur'an up to such scrutiny. No no no Michael, that I just will not and can not do. It's magical. Floated down from heaven with the pixies Pffff :roflmao:



Lets just see what WIKI says shall we.

1) Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasar, or simply Ibn Ishaq (Arabic: ابن إسحاق, meaning "the son of Isaac") (died 761) (Robinson 2003, p. xv) was an Arab Muslim historian.

2) "Muslims believe that these biographies are for the most part accurate portrayals of Muhammad.."


See quite simple really; So are we in agreement?
Michael

There are plenty of corroborations historical and otherwise for the existence of the Quran, none of which contradict the present version. Tahfiz has been a continuous tradition in Islam from the time Omar set it up for children.

After Umar canonised the Quran (ie made sure only the Tahfiz version was the one available to all) no variations have been produced. Since that was within 17 years of Mohammed's death, its close enough. The didactic marks came from the Tahfiz so there cannot be more than one version. The oldest surviving Quran is the same as the present one, 1300 years of unchanged maintenance of the text.

And the scholars recorded it all. The only problems that arise are from Western scholars who pass opinions on subjects they don't even pretend to study.

And yes Ishaq was a historian, but does that mean the same in the West and the East? In the East we recognise what constitutes accuracy; in the West apparently they don't care who said what as long as it suits their opinions.

I see you totally ignored the part about citations.

 

[Michael]

There are plenty of corroborations historical and otherwise for the existence of the Quran, none of which contradict the present version.

So if I post quote from the oldest Qur'an it will be exactly the same as a modern Qur'an?

Nothing different at all?
Is this true?

Michael

 

[Michael]

On the side, why argue the notion of an "Islamic" Golden Age when I took the position of a "Persian" Golden Age and then turn around and use my same argument that there is not such think as "Islam"?

Have you clanged your mind?

 

[S.A.M.]

So if I post quote from the oldest Qur'an it will be exactly the same as a modern Qur'an?

Nothing different at all?
Is this true?

Michael

What many people don't understand is the Quran is not meant to be read, it is a recital. i.e. it is meant to be heard and the words passed orally from one person to the next. People have made additions in the written changing swad to seen adding silent nuns, etc but the oral recital is unchanged from the beginning. I have seen lots of websites where people have pointed out where someone has made hundreds of changes in alphabets etc blah blah. Most of these are scholarly opinions which ignore the fact that in many places the oral recital was noted phonetically. All madrassas however teach the Quran (which means literally, the recital) as a recital and that is how it is learned as well, ie not only to say the words, but to recite them.

What many people also do not know is that the Quran was not given to Muhammed in only one language, that was how it was canonised by Umar. (ie to clarify, I am not certain about this part, its part of my ongoing research)

 

[S.A.M.]

On the side, why argue the notion of an "Islamic" Golden Age when I took the position of a "Persian" Golden Age and then turn around and use my same argument that there is not such think as "Islam"?

Have you clanged your mind?

That is a silly argument, since the Persian Golden Age would be about the Persians only, while the Islamic Golden Age is also about the Arabs, Egyptians and Moors. Besides, there is such a thing as Islam, all you have to do is see Mecca in Hajj or any mosque at prayer time.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Since Omar started the tradition of Tahfiz immediately after Muhammed's death, which has continued until today, there is almost nil chances of the oldest surviving Quran being any different from the modern Quran (the only differences are in didactic marks and Tahfiz takes care of that.

calif Uthman took care of that, he had all other qurans burned & only 4 "officials" sent to 4 corners of the empire
appearently several old ones did survive, oops

You're a very poor researcher. The oldest surviving Quran is from 100 years after Mohammed. Know of many 1300 year old books? Only one-third of the Othman Quran has survived, from 17 years after Mohammed's death.

link please

As for tradition, it is collected and cited; however, the older they are the more likely they are to be accurate especially if the citations are beyond reproach. Even the ones that are well cited, if they happen to be later, only give an indication of the accuracy of citation, without that of accuracy of the subject matter. In the interest of allowing all opinions to survive (and for the integrity of later research), the Muslims kept all records with citations as they heard/found them.

if people were adding tales to Mohammad, how are we to know which is true, taqiyya not withstanding?

Also there are issues with dating old Qurans

& those would be?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

This is nothing but a Muslim bashing thread, where are the Moderators?

running out of ideas for taqiyya?

You people do not realize:

1. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) was a statesman as well as a Prophet, so he was obliged and fully justified in declaring war and dividing up spoils of war

you mean bandit, then warlord, then conqueror

& I haven't seen any thing published that proves he is a prophet, for instance, he knew nothing about Jewish beliefs, & when they ridiculed him because of that, he had them exiled, enslaved & killed


you have heard of the "Battle of the Trench"?

 

[S.A.M.]

running out of ideas for taqiyya?
you mean bandit, then warlord, then conqueror

& I haven't seen any thing published that proves he is a prophet, for instance, he knew nothing about Jewish beliefs, & when they ridiculed him because of that, he had them exiled, enslaved & killed


you have heard of the "Battle of the Trench"?

Any taqiyya for your claims?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

3. If you want to ask us questions about Muslim morality (as though we are on trial for immorality),

why, yes, I guess I am, let's try this concept


Shouldn’t a Holy God have a Holy Heaven? What kind of god has a heaven for lechers, sex-addicts, was the muslim heaven designed for Hugh Hefner? Why any adolescent boy would kill for a heaven like that, oops, they already do! Any dirty old man would feel real comfortable in this muslims’ paradise.


from the quran, see these:
37:40-48
44:51-55
52:17-24
55:56-58
55:70-77
56:10-26
76:19-22
78:31-36

See here:

37:40-48

037.040
YUSUFALI: But the sincere (and devoted) Servants of Allah,-
PICKTHAL: Save single-minded slaves of Allah;
SHAKIR: Save the servants of Allah, the purified ones.
037.041
YUSUFALI: For them is a Sustenance determined,
PICKTHAL: For them there is a known provision,
SHAKIR: For them is a known sustenance,
037.042
YUSUFALI: Fruits (Delights); and they (shall enjoy) honour and dignity,
PICKTHAL: Fruits. And they will be honoured
SHAKIR: Fruits, and they shall be highly honored,
037.043
YUSUFALI: In Gardens of Felicity,
PICKTHAL: In the Gardens of delight,
SHAKIR: In gardens of pleasure,
037.044
YUSUFALI: Facing each other on Thrones (of Dignity):
PICKTHAL: On couches facing one another;
SHAKIR: On thrones, facing each other.
037.045
YUSUFALI: Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
PICKTHAL: A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them,
SHAKIR: A bowl shall be made to go round them from water running out of springs,
037.046
YUSUFALI: Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
PICKTHAL: White, delicious to the drinkers,
SHAKIR: White, delicious to those who drink.
037.047
YUSUFALI: Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
PICKTHAL: Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby.
SHAKIR: There shall be no trouble in it, nor shall they be exhausted therewith.
037.048
YUSUFALI: And besides them will be chaste women, restraining their glances, with big eyes (of wonder and beauty).
PICKTHAL: And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes,
SHAKIR: And with them shall be those who restrain the eyes, having beautiful eyes;

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/037.qmt.html

44:51-55

044.051
YUSUFALI: As to the Righteous (they will be) in a position of Security,
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who kept their duty will be in a place secured.
SHAKIR: Surely those who guard (against evil) are in a secure place,
044.052
YUSUFALI: Among Gardens and Springs;
PICKTHAL: Amid gardens and watersprings,
SHAKIR: In gardens and springs;
044.053
YUSUFALI: Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other;
PICKTHAL: Attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.
SHAKIR: They shall wear of fine and thick silk, (sitting) face to face;
044.054
YUSUFALI: So; and We shall join them to fair women with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes.
PICKTHAL: Even so (it will be). And We shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes.
SHAKIR: Thus (shall it be), and We will wed them with Houris pure, beautiful ones.
044.055
YUSUFALI: There can they call for every kind of fruit in peace and security;
PICKTHAL: They call therein for every fruit in safety.
SHAKIR: They shall call therein for every fruit in security;

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/044.qmt.html

52:17-24

052.017
YUSUFALI: As to the Righteous, they will be in Gardens, and in Happiness,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight,
SHAKIR: Surely those who guard (against evil) shall be in gardens and bliss
052.018
YUSUFALI: Enjoying the (Bliss) which their Lord hath bestowed on them, and their Lord shall deliver them from the Penalty of the Fire.
PICKTHAL: Happy because of what their Lord hath given them, and (because) their Lord hath warded off from them the torment of hell-fire.
SHAKIR: Rejoicing because of what their Lord gave them, and their Lord saved them from the punishment of the burning fire.
052.019
YUSUFALI: (To them will be said "Eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because of your (good) deeds."
PICKTHAL: (And it is said unto them): Eat and drink in health (as a reward) for what ye used to do,
SHAKIR: Eat and drink pleasantly for what you did,
052.020
YUSUFALI: They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
PICKTHAL: Reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes.
SHAKIR: Reclining on thrones set in lines, and We will unite them to large-eyed beautiful ones.
052.021
YUSUFALI: And those who believe and whose families follow them in Faith,- to them shall We join their families: Nor shall We deprive them (of the fruit) of aught of their works: (Yet) is each individual in pledge for his deeds.
PICKTHAL: And they who believe and whose seed follow them in faith, We cause their seed to join them (there), and We deprive them of nought of their (life's) work. Every man is a pledge for that which he hath earned.
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who believe and their offspring follow them in faith, We will unite with them their offspring and We will not diminish to them aught of their work; every man is responsible for what he shall have wrought.
052.022
YUSUFALI: And We shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they shall desire.
PICKTHAL: And We provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.
SHAKIR: And We will aid them with fruit and flesh such as they desire.
052.023
YUSUFALI: They shall there exchange, one with another, a (loving) cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of ill.
PICKTHAL: There they pass from hand to hand a cup wherein is neither vanity nor cause of sin.
SHAKIR: They shall pass therein from one to another a cup wherein there shall be nothing vain nor any sin.
052.024
YUSUFALI: Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
PICKTHAL: And there go round, waiting on them menservants of their own, as they were hidden pearls.
SHAKIR: And round them shall go boys of theirs as if they were hidden pearls.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/052.qmt.html

55:56-58

055.056
YUSUFALI: In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-
PICKTHAL: Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.
SHAKIR: In them shall be those who restrained their eyes; before them neither man nor jinni shall have touched them.
055.057
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
055.058
YUSUFALI: Like unto Rubies and coral.
PICKTHAL: (In beauty) like the jacynth and the coral-stone.
SHAKIR: As though they were rubies and pearls.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html

55:70-77

055.070
YUSUFALI: In them will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful;-
PICKTHAL: Wherein (are found) the good and beautiful -
SHAKIR: In them are goodly things, beautiful ones.
055.071
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? -
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
055.072
YUSUFALI: Companions restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions;-
PICKTHAL: Fair ones, close-guarded in pavilions -
SHAKIR: Pure ones confined to the pavilions.
055.073
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny? -
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
055.074
YUSUFALI: Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-
PICKTHAL: Whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them -
SHAKIR: Man has not touched them before them nor jinni.
055.075
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?-
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?
055.076
YUSUFALI: Reclining on green Cushions and rich Carpets of beauty.
PICKTHAL: Reclining on green cushions and fair carpets.
SHAKIR: Reclining on green cushions and beautiful carpets.
055.077
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html

56:10-26

056.010
YUSUFALI: And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter).
PICKTHAL: And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:
SHAKIR: And the foremost are the foremost,
056.011
YUSUFALI: These will be those Nearest to Allah:
PICKTHAL: Those are they who will be brought nigh
SHAKIR: These are they who are drawn nigh (to Allah),
056.012
YUSUFALI: In Gardens of Bliss:
PICKTHAL: In gardens of delight;
SHAKIR: In the gardens of bliss.
056.013
YUSUFALI: A number of people from those of old,
PICKTHAL: A multitude of those of old
SHAKIR: A numerous company from among the first,
056.014
YUSUFALI: And a few from those of later times.
PICKTHAL: And a few of those of later time.
SHAKIR: And a few from among the latter.
056.015
YUSUFALI: (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones),
PICKTHAL: On lined couches,
SHAKIR: On thrones decorated,
056.016
YUSUFALI: Reclining on them, facing each other.
PICKTHAL: Reclining therein face to face.
SHAKIR: Reclining on them, facing one another.
056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths
SHAKIR: Round about them shall go youths never altering in age,
056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;
056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:
PICKTHAL: Wherefrom they get no aching of the head nor any madness,
SHAKIR: They shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted,
056.020
YUSUFALI: And with fruits, any that they may select:
PICKTHAL: And fruit that they prefer
SHAKIR: And fruits such as they choose,
056.021
YUSUFALI: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire.
PICKTHAL: And flesh of fowls that they desire.
SHAKIR: And the flesh of fowl such as they desire.
056.022
YUSUFALI: And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-
PICKTHAL: And (there are) fair ones with wide, lovely eyes,
SHAKIR: And pure, beautiful ones,
056.023
YUSUFALI: Like unto Pearls well-guarded.
PICKTHAL: Like unto hidden pearls,
SHAKIR: The like of the hidden pearls:
056.024
YUSUFALI: A Reward for the deeds of their past (life).
PICKTHAL: Reward for what they used to do.
SHAKIR: A reward for what they used to do.
056.025
YUSUFALI: Not frivolity will they hear therein, nor any taint of ill,-
PICKTHAL: There hear they no vain speaking nor recrimination
SHAKIR: They shall not hear therein vain or sinful discourse,
056.026
YUSUFALI: Only the saying, "Peace! Peace".
PICKTHAL: (Naught) but the saying: Peace, (and again) Peace.
SHAKIR: Except the word peace, peace.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html

76:19-22

076.019
YUSUFALI: And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths, whom, when thou seest, thou wouldst take for scattered pearls.
SHAKIR: And round about them shall go youths never altering in age; when you see them you will think them to be scattered pearls.
076.020
YUSUFALI: And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.
PICKTHAL: When thou seest, thou wilt see there bliss and high estate.
SHAKIR: And when you see there, you shall see blessings and a great kingdom.
076.021
YUSUFALI: Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy.
PICKTHAL: Their raiment will be fine green silk and gold embroidery. Bracelets of silver will they wear. Their Lord will slake their thirst with a pure drink.
SHAKIR: Upon them shall be garments of fine green silk and thick silk interwoven with gold, and they shall be adorned with bracelets of silver, and their Lord shall make them drink a pure drink.
076.022
YUSUFALI: "Verily this is a Reward for you, and your Endeavour is accepted and recognised."
PICKTHAL: (And it will be said unto them): Lo! this is a reward for you. Your endeavour (upon earth) hath found acceptance.
SHAKIR: Surely this is a reward for you, and your striving shall be recompensed.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/076.qmt.html


78:31-36

078.031
YUSUFALI: Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
PICKTHAL: Lo! for the duteous is achievement -
SHAKIR: Surely for those who guard (against evil) is achievement,
078.032
YUSUFALI: Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
PICKTHAL: Gardens enclosed and vineyards,
SHAKIR: Gardens and vineyards,
078.033
YUSUFALI: And voluptuous women of equal age;
PICKTHAL: And voluptuous women of equal age;
SHAKIR: And voluptuous women of equal age;
078.034
YUSUFALI: And a cup full (to the brim).
PICKTHAL: And a full cup.
SHAKIR: And a pure cup.
078.035
YUSUFALI: No vanity shall they hear therein, nor Untruth:-
PICKTHAL: There hear they never vain discourse, nor lying -
SHAKIR: They shall not hear therein any vain words nor lying.
078.036
YUSUFALI: Recompense from thy Lord, a gift, (amply) sufficient,
PICKTHAL: Requital from thy Lord - a gift in payment -
SHAKIR: A reward from your Lord, a gift according to a reckoning:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/078.qmt.html
p.s. I'll delete the quotes in a week, leaving just the links

please ask a few questions and wait for our response. Don't make your own guesses as to what we believe.

why? I'm having fun psychoanalyzing Mohammad

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Any taqiyya for your claims?

I hope not, let history be the judge on morality

The defeated Jews were reduced to serfdom. They surrendered on condition of paying tribute to Muhammad and giving up all their land to Muslims. According to Stillman, this agreement did not cover the Banu Nadir tribe, which had sought refuge in Khaybar after their expulsion from Medina, and the Muslims beheaded all the men of Banu Nadir, taking the surviving women and children as slaves, and sparing only the lives of the Khaybarian Jews.[3] Jews continued to live in the oasis for several more years until they were finally expelled by caliph Umar. The imposition of tribute upon the conquered Jews served as a precedent for provisions in the Islamic law requiring the exaction of tribute known as jizya from non-Muslims under Muslim rule, and confiscation of land belonging to non-Muslims into the collective property of the Muslim community.[1][4][5]

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

 

[S.A.M.]

Guess we have a lot in common with the Bible then.

http://www.evilbible.com/

 

[S.A.M.]

I hope not, let history be the judge on morality


from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

History? Oh then you do have taqiyya, some evidence perhaps?

 

[Michael]

That is a silly argument, since the Persian Golden Age would be about the Persians only, while the Islamic Golden Age is also about the Arabs, Egyptians and Moors. Besides, there is such a thing as Islam, all you have to do is see Mecca in Hajj or any mosque at prayer time.

1) We don't call the Greek Golden Age the Polytheistic Gold Age or the European Golden Age the Xian Golden Age or the Chinese Golden Age the Confucius Golden Age.

ALSO: During the "Greek Golden Age" many great inventors and ideas came from Egypt. It's still called the Greek Golden Age. Why?


ALSO: I think Persians are the majority of the movers and shakers - isn't that correct?


ALSO: Do we credit the Mongolians with the Chinese Golden Age? No. Why? They ran the place!

I'm happy think think about this for a different thread.


2) What again is "Islam"?

 

[Michael]

There are plenty of corroborations historical and otherwise for the existence of the Quran, none of which contradict the present version.

I have seen lots of websites where people have pointed out where someone has made hundreds of changes in alphabets etc blah blah.

:bugeye:

 

[S.A.M.]

1) We don't call the Greek Golden Age the Polytheistic Gold Age or the European Golden Age the Xian Golden Age or the Chinese Golden Age the Confucius Golden Age.

ALSO: During the "Greek Golden Age" many great inventors and ideas came from Egypt. It's still called the Greek Golden Age. Why?


ALSO: I think Persians are the majority of the movers and shakers - isn't that correct?


ALSO: Do we credit the Mongolians with the Chinese Golden Age? No. Why? They ran the place!

I'm happy think think about this for a different thread.


2) What again is "Islam"?

Islam is the religion.

I really couldn't care less how other people call their golden age, you can call it the Persian golden age if you like, if it makes you feel better.:shrug:

But we are referring to their achievements under the influence of Islam.

 

[S.A.M.]

:bugeye:

See, you still ignore the role of Tahfiz; the records are of how the Quranic integrity was maintained, even the alphabetical additions (swad to seen etc) are recorded and explained.

 

[Michael]

Islam is the religion.

I really couldn't care less how other people call their golden age, you can call it the Persian golden age if you like, if it makes you feel better.:shrug:

But we are referring to their achievements under the influence of Islam.

Then you should refer to the European Golden Age as the Xian Golden Age. It was achievements under Christendom.


Me on the other hand I think the achievements happened in spite of Christendom and in spite of Islam.

Which makes much more sense.

"Islam" no more caused a Golden Age then did "Shaminism" cause the Chinese Golden Age. Or should we now call it the Shaministic Golden Age !?!?



Michael