Muslim Marriage Contract

Myles said:
This thread is specifically about Muslims rejecting a marriage contract which had been discussed and debated over a period of four years. Originally supported by the Muslim Council of Britain, it has now been rejected.

Try and stay on topic and stop trying to kid us that Pakistan is a typical Muslim state; you know it is not.
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Is this a universal Muslim marriage contract? Does it apply to me? If it does not, its a British issue and you need to figure it out for yourself.

Michael said:
Marriage contracts should not be legal in the USA or AU. If a parent is found to have forced their children into a marriage then we should do everything in our power to prevent such instances from occurring.

But, because this is usually done in ignorance, then I think the best thing would be to include a study on marriage contracts along with the religious education I was referring to so that when these kids grow up they understand that they do not have to get married to anyone other then someone of their own choice. Hopefully those that do succumb to family presser and enter into an unwanted marriage will at least see to it that it doesn't happen to their children.
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You're assuming that everyone is a westerner, of course. Arranged marriages are the norm in Eastern society and most people prefer them; out of all the people who went to school with me, I can probably count on one hand the number of people who chose their own spouses [and this goes for Hindu, Christians and Muslims; Sikhs are probably more conservative than the others, it is extremely rare to find a Sikh who is married to a non-Punjabi]. The "forced into marriage" syndrome is probably a very immigrant problem that bicultural children face in western societies.
 
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S.A.M. said:
Is this a universal Muslim marriage contract? Does it apply to me? If it does not, its a British issue and you need to figure it out for yourself.
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That is most helpful. The problem had sto light in Britain but my understanding is that it is based on Sharia. Perhaps you could tell us whether the following two points are universal , as I believe they are.

1. A Muslim woman cannot marry without her father's consent or that of a male relative. I believe the person involved is known as a walli.

2. A Muslim man can take more than one wife.

I am not referring to what is happening in Pakistan because the clergy have not succeeded in getting into the driving seat YET.
 
It depends on the Muslim woman, just as it did in the Pakistani gay marriage. The concept of "parents permission" is not present in Islam, its an Eastern custom. No Muslim man can take a second wife if his first wife disagrees to it [the priest asks if you have been married before]. Any permutations and combination are corruptions and should be illegal. In Islam, marriage is not a "sacred" bond; its a social contract. Divorce is not taboo, nor is remarriage. The only "compulsions" as such are consent [hence the priest will ask thrice, and you must reply, "I agree"] If you say "I do not agree" the marriage cannot proceed. Thats all it takes. Clergy have no real power in Islam, its a job and no one is bound to listen to them; like a lawyer, if you disagree with one clergy, you can find another one who is more consonant with your beliefs. There are as many liberal imams as there are conservative ones, of course, the liberal ones don't make as much mud slinging fun as the conservative ones.
 
S.A.M. said:
It depends on the Muslim woman, just as it did in the Pakistani gay marriage. The concept of "parents permission" is not present in Islam, its an Eastern custom. No Muslim man can take a second wife if his first wife disagrees to it [the priest asks if you have been married before]. Any permutations and combination are corruptions and should be illegal. In Islam, marriage is not a "sacred" bond; its a social contract. Divorce is not taboo, nor is remarriage. The only "compulsions" as such are consent [hence the priest will ask thrice, and you must reply, "I agree"] If you say "I do not agree" the marriage cannot proceed. Thats all it takes. Clergy have no real power in Islam, its a job and no one is bound to listen to them; like a lawyer, if you disagree with one clergy, you can find another one who is more consonant with your beliefs. There are as many liberal imams as there are conservative ones, of course, the liberal ones don't make as much mud slinging fun as the conservative ones.
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Well that explains why the contact was rejected. The man was expected to give an undertaking not to take other wives.

As far as the question of a walli is concerned, I find it hard to believe that a woman would be part of a marriage cermony unless she had her father's permission, This means the score for "I agree" would be 100%. So I am not sure this says anything.

I think there is no avoiding the fact that Muslims in Britain do not want to fit in. The contract is closer to the norms of our society without impingeing on religious freedom.
 
Myles said:
Well that explains why the contact was rejected. The man was expected to give an undertaking not to take other wives.

As far as the question of a walli is concerned, I find it hard to believe that a woman would be part of a marriage cermony unless she had her father's permission, This means the score for "I agree" would be 100%. So I am not sure this says anything.

I think there is no avoiding the fact that Muslims in Britain do not want to fit in. The contract is closer to the norms of our society without impingeing on religious freedom.
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It means the woman has the freedom to say NO if she wants. Of course, it may mean that she has to go out and support herself. God forbid that a young woman should actually have to take on that level of responsibility. In my opinion [and experience], if you're financially independent, most people will consider you mature enough to make your own decisions.


If you're living in Daddy's home and daddy is paying the bills, it would be arrogant to assume that he would not consider you too inexperienced to know what you are talking about. I've seen this in Indian societies, I don't believe the British can be that different. Show me an independent British Muslim young woman who is not allowed to make her own decisions.

As for second wives, I assume there are still idiotic women who hang around after discovering their husbands inability to be monogamous [Hillary Clinton did it, after all]. So its hardly surprising that if you tolerate crap, you get more of it. Sorry, as someone who is fully aware of the rights accorded to a Muslim woman, I have no patience with those who will not stand up for themselves. How independent can you be when you want other people to grant you your freedom?
 
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S.A.M. said:
It means the woman has the freedom to say NO if she wants. Of course, it may mean that she has to go out and support herself. God forbid that a young woman should actually have to take on that level of responsibility. In my opinion [and experience], if you're financially independent, most people will consider you mature enough to make your own decisions.


If you're living in Daddy's home and daddy is paying the bills, it would be arrogant to assume that he would not consider you too inexperienced to know what you are talking about. I've seen this in Indian societies, I don't believe the British can be that different. Show me an independent British Muslim young woman who is not allowed to make her own decisions.

As for second wives, I assume there are still idiotic women who hang around after discovering their husbands inability to be monogamous [Hillary Clinton did it, after all]. So its hardly surprising that if you tolerate crap, you get more of it. Sorry, as someone who is fully aware of the rights accorded to a Muslim woman, I have no patience with those who will not stand up for themselves. How independent can you be when you want other people to grant you your freedom?
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What you say makes sense up to a point but don't overlook the fact that some Muslim girls are not allowed to go on to university. Be that as it may, there is no escaping the fact that the Muslim Council of Britain supports what you say you deplore, i.e., A girl needs a father's permission to marry and a husband may take more than one wife.

BTW you are unlikely to find many independent Muslim girls. Muslims live in ghettos centred around a mosque so there is all sorts of peer pressure for them to conform. Most lack the means to leave home and lead independent lives.

The whole problem would have gone away had two points in the contract been approved. That is, a woman would be free to choose her own husband without reference to anyone else and her husband-to-be would give an undertaking not to take other wives. The problem lies with the Muslim men who want to stick to their old ways.
 
S.A.M. said:
The "forced into marriage" syndrome is probably a very immigrant problem that bicultural children face in western societies.
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The Korean, Japanese and Chinese I know of are introduced to someone by their parents but there is no "contract" per se. Just an introduction.
 
Yeah, and thats how its done all over the East. Contract? Thats the marriage contract. Like civil marriages in western countries with their prenups. Thats what a Muslim marriage contract is.
 
Will do.

SAM, why do you suppose that Muslims appear to have problems integrating in Briton, Thailand, India, China, France, etc...? Why is that do you think?

Do you think it could be connected to why a Lebanese friend of mine said he will probably marry his first cousin - after I said, you know that's illegal, he said "That's what we do."

Do you suppose that it may be connected with the persecution of the Ahmadiyya Muslims by other Muslims?



Bigots tend to marry other bigots. Teach someone to hate blacks, they'll marry someone who also hates blacks. People who hate blacks, well, they just don't integrate that well into black societies. Arrange for them to marry someone who hate's blacks as much as they do - well as they say "birds of a feather"

Michael
 
SAM, why do you suppose that Muslims appear to have problems integrating in Briton, Thailand, India, China, France, etc...? Why is that do you think?

Do you think it could be connected to why a Lebanese friend of mine said he will probably marry his first cousin - even I said, you that's illegal, he said "That's what we do."
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Why are Americans so ignorant? Its not illegal to marry your first cousin. Except in some states in the US.

26 states allow first cousin marriages; most people can marry their cousin in the US.
US prohibitions against cousin marriages predate modern genetics.
No European country prohibits marriage between first cousins. It is also legal throughout Canada and Mexico to marry your cousin. The U.S. is the only western country with cousin marriage restrictions.



The frequency of cousin marriages in the USA is about 1 in 1,000. The frequency of cousin marriages in Japan is about 4 in 1,000
It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!
In some cultures, the term cousin and mate are synonymous.
Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.
Franklin D. Roosevelt, the longest serving US president in history married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).
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Kadark said:
No.


Kadark
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So then it's not only about being Muslim really.

Is polytheism permitted under an Islamic government?

Suppose a person were raised a Muslim but renounced Islam, became apostate and decided to worship multiple Gods and Goddesses.

Is that permitted in a country with an Islamic government?

MII
 
Whats an Islamic government? Is it like the Christian government in the US? Or the Buddhist government in Burma?
 
Michael said:
So then it's not only about being Muslim really.

Is polytheism permitted under an Islamic government?

Suppose a person were raised a Muslim but renounced Islam, became apostate and decided to worship multiple Gods and Goddesses.

Is that permitted in a country with an Islamic government?

MII
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In private, yes.

Myles said:
What planet are you living on ? All the available scientific evidence shows that homosexuality is not a choice; it's the way people are. Now, if someone is born within the Muslim community and they happen to be homosexual, what is your advice to them ?

On this issue you are at one with fundamentalist Christians and I do not consider that a point in your favour.
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Another "gay gene" advocate? Knock me over with a feather. Quite frankly, this is a clear issue to me, with or without the innateness of homosexuality: it isn't allowed in Islam. Of course, I'd rather steer clear of this topic altogether, to save us all our time and sanity.


Kadark
 
Michael has such prudy prudy attitudes, which probably reflect his Catholic upbringing, I wonder what he would say if a guy was to come up to him and kiss him. :D
 
Michael said:
Not in Michigan and not in AU.
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Why are Americans so ignorant?

Marriage to a relative

The Marriage Act prohibits people marrying:

* an ancestor or descendant; or
* their brother or sister (whether whole blood or half-blood siblings)

These restrictions also apply to adoptive relationships even if these have been annulled, cancelled, discharged or cease to be effective for any reason (for example, a subsequent adoption order being made).

This means, for example, that a person cannot marry their parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother or sister. However, (depending of course on the gender of the party) a person may marry their aunt or uncle, niece or nephew or ‘first’ cousin.

http://www.ag.gov.au/www/agd/agd.nsf/Page/MarriageGetting_Married
 
Kadark said:
In private, yes.

Kadark
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So, polytheists, can not worship in the same manner as Muslims worship? I mean, build a temple and worship Gods and Goddesses in it publicly?

I'm assuming by your answer the answer is no?


Under an Islamic government, can Christians proselytize and convert Muslims out of Islam and into Christianity?
 
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