Murder by faith

[Myles]

Notes on Idiocy



Now that is an interesting dialogue. Specifically, I find it interesting because both parties bothered to post when typing words was about all the effort they were willing to put into it. Actually thinking about what they were saying, apparently, was a bit too much to ask.

Now, I agree that the feline comparison is stupid. The Mulsim scholar zinger, though—ooh! like that was original—suggests that the original denunciation of the feline comparison was more personal than substantial. And that's the thing.

The role of Devil's Advocate is supposed to be constructive, and not arbitrary. The opposition to stupidity is inherently expected to transcend what it criticizes or denounces.

Should we pretend that the differences between human and feline behavioral patterns are too subtle for S.A.M.'s perception? Maybe we can convince ourselves that Myles' sarcasm actually communicates something of a useful answer. In truth, it is easy enough to see the differences between the behavior of house cats and human beings. For instance, when the family looks you in the eye after spending eighteen hours refusing to accommodate the needs of the kitten while getting drunk with friends and says, without a trace of irony, "A happy mother is the most important thing to raising a healthy, happy child", we can talk about how to punish the freakin' cat.

Okay? Easy enough?

Cats certainly demonstrate a certain logical structure at work, but they do not appear to argue logical structures the way humans do. Their behavioral patterns do not change so apparently as those of humans. If your cat is an addict, it will whine and yowl. It will not lie, cheat, and steal. Perhaps this is related to its lack of opposable thumbs, but I would need to see the peer-reviewed article from one or another psychological or psychiatric journal before I can readily accept that thesis.

Okay, for the record, I have seen dogs steal a stash before, and, yes, it's as funny as it is tragic watching a dog try to eat marijuana. Perhaps cats are just smarter, though. Or maybe they're just not strong enough to open a stash box. But my cat never tried to eat my cigarettes. Rather, she just yowled and yelled until I went outside to smoke, and then she came out, made an effort to get in my way when I exhaled, and proceeded to chill out.

And, yeah, she's really pissed that I dropped nicotine.

Trying to make a point about whether or not human beings are "special" seems to deliberately overlook the obvious. And, frankly, that's not particularly helpful.

If the Devil's Advocate is supposed to be a moron, then what the hell is going on with the rest of us?

"If evil were a lesser breed than justice, after all these years the righteous would have freed the world of sin." (OK Go!)​

So, for the record, it is unethical for people to play the idiot just because they're feeling bitter today. And while this lapse might seem fairly minor in the world at large—and I would agree until we add up the cumulative effect of millions of people acting this way—it is brought into particularly sharp contrast by the notion that one is allegedly participating in a discussion purported to be about Ethics, Morality, and Justice.

If I really believed S.A.M. and Myles to be stupid, I wouldn't bother saying a damn thing. But there is a certain incongruity about deliberate bad faith in an argument about ethics. Maybe it's an artistic statement; if so, it's very poorly executed.

Your appraisal is worth zilch. What passed between SAM and me was related to a previous post, hence the reference to the Muslim scholar, which you clearly have not read.

So get your brain in gear before opening your mouth and maybe not so much crap will come out !

 

[Myles]

This is a sticky issue. As the story says, she was sick a month before she died. Likely started out looking a lot like the flu, as diabetes can. Since the parents were not medical doctors they probably just trusted in rest, fluids, feeding her well and paryaer to help her get better. Then as it got worse they probably though it was a prolonged bout of something nasty but curable. What parent thinks to themselves "Oh that might be childhood diabetes." and like most cases of diabetes she had he good times and bad. In this case the parents did not know the seriousness of the illness and when she fell into a coma they probably thought that it was fever or chill induced. Since she was probably retaining water at this point so they had no fear of dehydration.

Face it Tiassa, you cannot actually say they knew the seriousness of the situation. To them it appeared much less harmful that it truly was.

And when she lapsed into a coma ? How about ignoring the advice they were given to seek medical assistance ? These people are stupid beyond belief. They should be rehabilitated in a mental institution or simply left there if rehabilitation is impossible. They can always pray for guidance and, as we know, prayer is more powerful than all the advances we have made in medicine.
The kindest thing one can say is that they are halfwits and not accountable for their actions.

 

[Roman]

This is a sticky issue. As the story says, she was sick a month before she died. Likely started out looking a lot like the flu, as diabetes can. Since the parents were not medical doctors they probably just trusted in rest, fluids, feeding her well and paryaer to help her get better. Then as it got worse they probably though it was a prolonged bout of something nasty but curable. What parent thinks to themselves "Oh that might be childhood diabetes." and like most cases of diabetes she had he good times and bad. In this case the parents did not know the seriousness of the illness and when she fell into a coma they probably thought that it was fever or chill induced. Since she was probably retaining water at this point so they had no fear of dehydration.

Face it Tiassa, you cannot actually say they knew the seriousness of the situation. To them it appeared much less harmful that it truly was.

This is exactly how I feel.

Should parents be forced to take their children to the doctor for every little sniffle, or else risk being imprisoned for negligence? That's stupid.

 

[Bells]

This is exactly how I feel.

Should parents be forced to take their children to the doctor for every little sniffle, or else risk being imprisoned for negligence? That's stupid.

You consider a child lapsing into a coma as being a "little sniffle"?

 

[Myles]

They would have had some indication that she was ill. From your link in the OP:

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday..​

And then of course, they would definitely know something was very wrong when she lapsed into a coma:

"the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."..."​

The family, when they found out that she was ill sought help for the girl, something the parents had failed to do, and they were the ones who contacted the authorities, but sadly, it was too late for the child.

"Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked if an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline - a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester - was declared dead."
Source
​

All that comes to mind is 'what in the hell were they thinking?'..


Ah geez Sam, maybe because we are, as Tiassa said, human?

There comes a point where humans can act and be just down right stupid. What parent, upon seeing a child fall ill and get progressively worse, does not call or seek medical help for that child, instead preferring to stay "fast in prayer"? At what point did they intervene? Ah yes, when she died, they attempted to resort to interfering by giving her CPR. Why bother with the CPR at all by that point? The question that needs to be asked to the parents is 'why didn't you take her to a doctor or the hospital' when she became so ill'?

The mother had called a family member and told them that the girl had slipped into a coma. She still had not called an ambulance or the doctor, instead preferring to pray by her bedside. They believed she would recover and they kept praying. One would assume that by the time the child had lapsed into a coma, outside help needed to be sought... Yes? No?

We attach ethical significance to human behaviour because it is necessary, and as this case proves, it can be vital to the survival of one's life. For example, the priest where my mother goes to Church once told my cousin this joke, when she asked him after a family wedding, if she could come to see him so he could pray over her, because she was sick and in pain. He was surprised that she had not sought medical help, instead holding fast to the belief that faith and God would heal her. The joke:

"There was once a family who lived in a house.. warnings had been given of heavy rain and flooding in the area where the family lived.. So the family began to pray for God to save them from the flood..

As the water lapped against their front porch, a big truck arrived, with rescuers to remove them from their house, lest they become stranded in the flood. The family refused, saying "God will save us".. The truck went away and they continued to pray for God to save them...

As the water kept rising, they were forced to move to the second story of their house.. A boat arrived with rescuers to rescue them from the flood. They refused again, saying "God will save us".. The rescue boat left and they continued to pray for God to save them...

The flood waters kept rising and they were forced to retreat to the roof of their house, still praying for God to save them while sitting in the rain on their roof. A helicopter arrived to rescue them from the flood and again, they refused. Saying "God will not let us die, he will save us".. The helicopter left and still they prayed.

The flood waters rose and they all ultimately died. When they got to heaven, they demanded from God, "Why didn't you save us.. we prayed and prayed and you didn't save us".. God replied.. "I sent you a truck, you refused. I sent you a boat, you refused. I then sent you a helicopter and you still refused.. the only reason you died was because you were just too damn stupid to recognise help when it got to you"..."​

In other words, don't be so stupid as to ignore what help there is, just because it does not fit into whatever box you may think it should come in.

If you will allow me to say so, it's good to read a post which cuts through the bullshit and gets to the heart of the matter. Those stupid parents had plenty of time to to see that prayer wasn't helping but they carried on praying as the girl's condition deteriorated. They ignored the good advice the were give. Even when the child lapsed into a coma it was not necessarily too late to help her with medical intervention.

I despair at the utter stupidity of such people. As I said previously, in talking about freedom of belief one must also consider the girl's right to life which was denied her.

 

[lucifers angel]

Source: KOMO 4 (Associated Press)
Link: http://www.komotv.com/news/national/17057006.html
Title: "Girl, 11, dies of treatable illness after parents pick prayer over medicine", by Robert Imrie
Date: March 27, 2008

Suffer the little children ....

Madeline Kara Neumann​

I am ... uh ... well, I am at present damn near speechless. I don't know why. This sort of thing isn't unheard of. But for some reason—maybe because I'm tired—I'm really disturbed. You know, "F@ck God! F@ck religion!" That sort of thing.

But there is a more important aspect to this. So here we have a nexus of religion, psychology, and justice:

• At what point is religion a mental illness?
• At what point does that mental illness endanger other people?
• Should freedom of religion include the right to neglect your children's vital medical needs?
• Is religion a proper excuse for letting a child die?​

These parents should spend the rest of their lives in prison.

I have a daughter. It is literally beyond my comprehension right now to understand how I could possibly be expected to leave her to die.

The moon was waning gibbous. I suppose that only matters if I had put this in the Religion forum.

What is important enough to you to leave your child to die?



I mean, the thing that gets me about it is that the guy's faith was so weak that he opposed God's will once the girl stopped breathing. Really, if it was "God's will" that the girl should die, then suck up and deal with it. (F@cking godforsaken hypocrites! You wanted her dead! You wanted her dead!)

And yet it's a sickness. And a little girl just gave everything for her parents sickness. Somehow, we're supposed to be compassionate. And all I can think right now is that they wanted her dead.

Is insanity a proper defense for these people? A few years in bedlam, pretend they're fine? And how do you keep them from relapse once they're out?

Even in the abstract, this God is without justice.

they shoud go to prison, they murdered they're child, and for that they should go to prison and stay there

 

[Myles]

This is exactly how I feel.

Should parents be forced to take their children to the doctor for every little sniffle, or else risk being imprisoned for negligence? That's stupid.

What a stupid comparison you make. To compare the onset of ketoacidosis with a sniffle is beyond belief. Do you often become comatose when you have a sniffle ?

 

[pjdude1219]

This is exactly how I feel.

Should parents be forced to take their children to the doctor for every little sniffle, or else risk being imprisoned for negligence? That's stupid.

i don't know for us thinking folk when someone goes into a coma it rates little bit more than the sniffles

 

[Avatar]

Don't know about American laws, but in my country that constitutes criminal neglect which resulted in death for which you can get up to 3 years in prison.

 

[greenberg]

You consider a child lapsing into a coma as being a "little sniffle"?

Many people who believe in the Bible believe that children are bad, selfish, basically second-class persons who yet need to be elevated to full person status (by the mercy of God and the children's wonderful earthly parents, one ought to add).

It doesn't come as a surprise then that some of such parents will be prone to think that when a child looks ill, this is just the child's badness, selfishness, pretense, sinfulness - and not real, medical illness.
So such parents will in effect neglect the child for so long that they become convinced that the child is really ill and not simply displaying selfishness or faking to be ill.

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert title here)

Face it Tiassa, you cannot actually say they knew the seriousness of the situation. To them it appeared much less harmful that it truly was.

Indeed. As I noted earlier,

It's not clear to me that they actually knew. Because of the parents' views on doctors and medicine, Madeleine's condition (diabetes) was not diagnosed until after her death.​

But that brings me straight back to Bells' point. (I would ask that you, too, sir, consider my response to Bells in the context of your point noted above.)

• • •​

They would have had some indication that she was ill. From your link in the OP ....

I do not disagree. I was considering Wsionynw's point in the context of the diabetes. Nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite, and general weakness are all symptomatic of lesser illnesses than diabetes. I tend to just slog through those symptoms without any tremendous worry; for myself I treat it like an inconvenience. I haven't had to worry much about my daughter's health. There was a time when she was two that I had no choice but to suppress a fever, but that's about as serious as it's been. She had a long mild cold this season, and it was more disturbing to me to listen to her mother's family blame immunizations. In the end, my daughter saw a medical doctor twice in that period and some random naturopath at the store where her maternal grandparents buy their supplements. The MD was of the opinion that while the low-grade bug was annoying, there wasn't much to be done about it, and even advised backing off the children's cold medicine in order to let my daughter's body have the fight. The naturopath, of course, went on about how a minor cold could scar her for life, and recommended biotic silver and calcium sulphate. I don't deny that the cold went away, but that could have been coincidental, too. While her mother's family worried about the damage immunization did to her immune system, I will say that she was completely unaffected by a fairly vicious influenza bug that dropped me for three days.

My problem with the parents' outlook is not that they failed to seek medical attention for persistent flu symptoms. Then again, I wasn't there. I probably would have sought medical attention after only a couple of weeks, but that's the thing: if it was me, I would have known already that the girl was diabetic. And that is where I find their outlook inexplicable and frustrating. This isn't even about blood transfusions or immunization shots. This is about diagnosis. I mean, hell, if they'd known, the least they could have done in response was alter the girl's diet. That might have given her a fighting chance. Or, perhaps, they would have prayed and meditated on the problem and at some point God would have made the point that they really should consider getting a doctor for the child. Or maybe that would have only strengthened their resolve. You seem to have covered that issue ....

 

[Avatar]

Face it Tiassa, you cannot actually say they knew the seriousness of the situation. To them it appeared much less harmful that it truly was.

Under criminal law it is enough that the parents had to know that the kid needs a doctor.
Ignorance doesn't save you from responsibility.

 

[Myles]

Under criminal law it is enough that the parents had to know that the kid needs a doctor.
Ignorance doesn't save you from responsibility.

Tha's exactly hoiw it should be.

 

[S.A.M.]

Still don't get it. So if I, through neglect, cause the death of one child, I'm a criminal.

But, if I impose sanctions that result in the death of half a million children through avoidable causes, I'm a liberal representing democracy and justice.

 

[Myles]

Many people who believe in the Bible believe that children are bad, selfish, basically second-class persons who yet need to be elevated to full person status (by the mercy of God and the children's wonderful earthly parents, one ought to add).

It doesn't come as a surprise then that some of such parents will be prone to think that when a child looks ill, this is just the child's badness, selfishness, pretense, sinfulness - and not real, medical illness.
So such parents will in effect neglect the child for so long that they become convinced that the child is really ill and not simply displaying selfishness or faking to be ill.

So, in the present case a child becoming comatose did not persuade the parents that she was ill ? Those stupid people should be put away for a long time. It also raises the question to what extent society should be tolerant of such idiots. Can anything be done in the name of religion ?

 

[Tiassa]

No, seriously, would you really like me to pretend you're stupid?

Still don't get it. So if I, through neglect, cause the death of one child, I'm a criminal.

But, if I impose sanctions that result in the death of half a million children through avoidable causes, I'm a liberal representing democracy and justice.

Well, it's a bit more complex than that and you know it.

Just like if I steal from you, I'm a criminal. But if I willingly invest in a corporation that lies to you and steals from you through fraud, I should be protected by law from any liability for my participation.

If you neglect your child to death, that's you. And, maybe, your spouse/partner. What one or two people can pass and enforce international sanctions? Would you like me to pretend you're incapable of figuring out the difference?

 

[Myles]

Still don't get it. So if I, through neglect, cause the death of one child, I'm a criminal.

But, if I impose sanctions that result in the death of half a million children through avoidable causes, I'm a liberal representing democracy and justice.

You recently declared your position on human behaviour by telling me that Allah had decided how we should act, before he created us. So I suggest you direct your criticizm at Allah, not at the robots he created.

 

[Tiassa]

Let's pretend

So I suggest you direct your criticizm at Allah, not at the robots he created.

Let us pretend, for a moment, that S.A.M. really is that stupid. Now then, would you rather help her learn the things she needs to understand, or are you just more interested in having someone to knock? If you intend to drag your prior grudge into this discussion, then at least do so constructively.

Pretty please? With sugar and (extra) insulin on top?

 

[greenberg]

Ouch. You guys, it hurts to read so much gall. What you really want is a good fist fight, not a discussion, don't you?

 

[lucifers angel]

Still don't get it. So if I, through neglect, cause the death of one child, I'm a criminal.

But, if I impose sanctions that result in the death of half a million children through avoidable causes, I'm a liberal representing democracy and justice.

yes you will be a criminal, neglect is a criminal act all on its own! and perants are seperated from they're kids all the time because of it, and faith has nothing (or shouldnt) have anything to do with it, if you cause the death of your child because of faith, then your neglegent