Mormon Teachings

[Brutus1964]

Brutus,


I have met many Mormon missionaries in my life. They like to say, "I hope you will one day accept Christ in your life."

Which, in my case, means that I would have to give up what I believe now. So, those people are, in effect saying to me, "I hope you will give up what you believe and accept what I believe".

Now how the hell would you feel, Brutus, if someone would say to you "I hope you will give up what you believe and accept what I believe"? Would you like that? Would you call that *love*?

The LDS Church's 11th Article of Faith

11 WE CLAIM the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Water

The missionaries are not there to force any kind of a belief system on you. You are free to choose what ever you want. However, we believe we have the truth and that God has commanded us to teach that truth to everyone. It is out of love that we do it. The Church is not trying to take any truths that you have away from you. We are trying to add to the truths that you already have. We embrace all truth whatever the source of it is. We embrace scientific truths. Our doctrine is to believe and accept the truth no matter where the truth comes from.

LDS 13th Article of Faith.
13 WE BELIEVE in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Brigham Young the Prophet once said:

Can the evolution of species (or their apparent gradual development over millions of years) jive with the existence of a supreme Creator? We believe all truth must be consistent, and if there is a conflict, something needs to be revised. Brigham Young said, "Our religion embraces all truth and every fact in existence, no matter whether in heaven, earth, or hell. A fact is a fact, all truth issues forth from the Fountain of truth, and the sciences are facts as far as men have proved them" ("Remarks by President Brigham Young, Attending Meetings--Religion and Science--Geology--The Creation," Delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, May 14, 1871, Journal of Discourses, 14: 117.)

I hope that answers your question. If not please let me know.

 

[Brutus1964]

now I accept that disagree, but it has not ben answered.
But for now I let it go at that.

Mustafhakofi

I now have an answer to your question. My wife read my posts and pointed out my error in thinking.

You will never be forced to bow down and accept Christ. You will always have a choice. There will never be a time that our free agency is taken away. However, you cannot enter a Kingdom of Glory until you accept Christ. There will be a time that you will stand before God and be judged, however even then you could tell him to take a hike. By doing so you would deny Him with an absolute knowledge. Therefore you would commit the unpardonable sin and become a Son of Perdition and be sent to Outer Darkness. So you do have the choice, but you will have to forever live with the consequences.

I was taking the scripture about “every knee shall bow, and tongue confess” too literally. It’s proper interpretation should be that every knee shall bow, and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ in order to enter his kingdom” I erred in thinking this meant that you would at one time be forced to bow down to him. I apologize for my own lack of knowledge on the subject. But hey even I learned something from this exercise so your questioning of me was a good thing. Thank you for challenging me.

PS. We do not know exactly what Outer Darkness is. We know it is not a Hell where you burn for eternity. It may be just what it implies. Darkness. Absolutely no light. Nothingness. Which is exactly what atheists expect to get anyway.

 

[mustafhakofi]

thank you, brutus.
so my choices are bow before god, or commit the unpardonable sin." slave-freedom," "slave-freedom," freedom without a doubt, I would have choose the outer darkness, and if it causes god not to have absolute knowledge, at least I dont have to be a slave.

and thank you again.

 

[Brutus1964]

mustafhakofi

I think we hit on something very big here. Many people have asked why did God put us though all of this pain and suffering if he is a loving God. Why didn't he just make us all good in the first place and guarantee our return to him? It is because by doing that he would be making slaves of us that could only do his bidding. To make us a slave would be a sin, and if God were to sin he would cease to be God. Therefore, He had to give us free will and allow us to be good or evil on our own. We must decide for ourselves. There is no other way. God will not force us to do anything against our own free will.

In our pre-Earth life with God, he gave us all the choice whether to accept his plan or not. 1/3rd chose not to and they were sent to Earth without bodies. The other 2/3rds accepted and came to Earth with bodies and here we are now. God had to give Adam and Eve the choice to fall. Even Jesus Christ had the choice whether to go through with the atonemnent. He pleaded with God the father whether there was another way, and God told him there was not. Jesus did go through with it by his own free will. Nowhere on the way has anything been forced anyone.

Having free will does not mean we are not subject to the consequences of our choice. It is a natural law that all actions have a reaction. So the fact that our free will results in a consequence is not taking our will away from us.

 

[mis-t-highs]

I've posted this in two places as you did the same with the post I quoted. (also posted in why do you worship god)

Many people have asked why did God put us though all of this pain and suffering if he is a loving God.

I would appreciate your answer to this, and please dont say you've already answered.

Why didn't he just make us all good in the first place and guarantee our return to him? It is because by doing that he would be making slaves of us that could only do his bidding.

but you are slaves, because your life is preordained for you, and please dont say you have free will, that just rubbish, check this out.http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40065

To make us a slave would be a sin, and if God were to sin he would cease to be God.

but your god has sinned, repeatedly. I suggest you check this out also. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40731so why are you still worshiping it.

Therefore, He had to give us free will and allow us to be good or evil on our own. We must decide for ourselves. There is no other way. God will not force us to do anything against our own free will.

rubbish, again back to the free will crap.

It is not God that decides how much good or evil will exist. That is completely up to us. So the answer to the question this thread poses is that evil must be allowed to exist or God could not continue to be God.

you do come out with some crap, your god needs to do evil to make sure his sheep, thats you, cower in fear of his wrath, this being you loving god.
but evil does not need to exist, it only does because he wishes it, read the bible as it's written not between the lines.

In our pre-Earth life with God, he gave us all the choice whether to accept his plan or not. 1/3rd chose not to and they were sent to Earth without bodies. The other 2/3rds accepted and came to Earth with bodies and here we are now. God had to give Adam and Eve the choice to fall. Even Jesus Christ had the choice whether to go through with the atonemnent. He pleaded with God the father whether there was another way, and God told him there was not. Jesus did go through with it by his own free will. Nowhere on the way has anything been forced anyone.
Having free will does not mean we are not subject to the consequences of our choice.So the fact that our free will results in a consequence is not taking our will away from us.

you religious lot are truly delusional, twilight zone time, we now have a prelife, life, and an afterlife, the real ones the one in the middle. wow

your whole post is moronic, but you end it with this bit of true logic, why cant you think like that all the time.

It is a natural law that all actions have a reaction.

 

[water]

The missionaries are not there to force any kind of a belief system on you.

No. What they do is emotional blackmail.
And this is why the way you are spreading your message via missionaries is so loathsome.

It is out of love that we do it.

I could tell you things about missionary love!

The Church is not trying to take any truths that you have away from you. We are trying to add to the truths that you already have.

Clever trap.

See -- if you define "truth" as

We embrace all truth whatever the source of it is. We embrace scientific truths. Our doctrine is to believe and accept the truth no matter where the truth comes from.

Then who has the power over saying what truth is? Everyone? Noone? God? And if God, then you, since you can claim to know God's words?
But not me, since I, not being a Mormon, don't have that access to God's word?

In order for me to accept some truths proposed by Mormonism, I would have to reject some truths that I hold now. To exemplify -- one cannot be a Buddhist and a Mormon at the same time; or a Catholic and a Mormon at the same time.

So it is NOT ABOUT ADDING TRUTHS, but about accepting some, and rejecting others.

For example, you believe that God was once a man, and to you, this is a truth. To me, it is not. I could not possibly simply add that truth you give to my already existing belief, I cannot at the same time believe that God was once a man, and that God once was not a man.

 

[Brutus1964]

God is not egotistical; however I agree that most religions make him out to be. God did not create us for his sake. He does not demand to be worshiped to stroke his own insatiable ego. Our ultimate destiny is not to go to heaven and stare in awe at his greatness for eternity. If that was his intent then he could have just made us into automatons designed to do that in the first place. No need for us to come to this earth and suffer no need to send people to Hell. God's plan has always been to give us everything he has. He is not reserving Godhood for himself alone, and keeping all others out. He put us here for that exact purpose. Many religions take issue with this belief; however it is the only one that makes sense. If God is all powerful and all loving then why wouldn't he make us God's? You cannot say he cannot do it, if he can then why won’t he? The only way he would not is if he is egotistical and wants all the glory for himself. God is not egotistical so he will not hold us back from our ultimate destiny. It is the only logical conclusion. Either we can become God's ourselves or there is no God. There is no way around it. I believe in God, therefore I believe in the divine potential of man.

 

[mis-t-highs]

then there is no god, oh wait I already know that.

 

[Brutus1964]

No. What they do is emotional blackmail.
And this is why the way you are spreading your message via missionaries is so loathsome.




I could tell you things about missionary love!




Clever trap.

See -- if you define "truth" as



Then who has the power over saying what truth is? Everyone? Noone? God? And if God, then you, since you can claim to know God's words?
But not me, since I, not being a Mormon, don't have that access to God's word?

In order for me to accept some truths proposed by Mormonism, I would have to reject some truths that I hold now. To exemplify -- one cannot be a Buddhist and a Mormon at the same time; or a Catholic and a Mormon at the same time.

So it is NOT ABOUT ADDING TRUTHS, but about accepting some, and rejecting others.

For example, you believe that God was once a man, and to you, this is a truth. To me, it is not. I could not possibly simply add that truth you give to my already existing belief, I cannot at the same time believe that God was once a man, and that God once was not a man.

Water

When a scientist discovers new facts that disprove his prior thinking then he must abandon what he now knows to be wrong and adapt his thinking to the new facts. Truth is truth independent of belief or disbelief. All religions have some truth to them, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has the fullness of the gospel. What we have to offer is the fullness of the truth. So the answer to your question is yes you would have to abandon some things that you now believe in order to embrace the LDS church's teachings.

Who defines what is true? The Holy Ghost helps us discern between right and wrong. If you are in tune with him then he will tell you in your mind and in your heart what is true. You only need to ask and be willing to accept his answer.

You do not have to believe that God was once a man in order to be LDS.
a previous post might answer this question.

we do not know for sure the "History" of God the Father. He very well could have been a man like us before he was exalted into Godhood. Whether that is the case it is irrelevant to us. He is our God and we do not associate ourselves or have any kind of attachment or communication with other Gods. He will always be our God. Even if we ourselves ascend to Godhood, he will still be our God and we will always worship him as such.

In the church there are two types of doctrines. There are the ones you really need to know for your eternal salvation. Then there are some of the deeper ones that even though they are interesting to speculate, they have absolutely no bearing on your standing in the church or your relationship with God. Speculating about where God may or may not have come from is one of the types.


Are we the same "species" as God? Yes we are. We are literaly his children, but for now we are in a fallen and primative state. You could say that in our pre-earth life we were like a caterpillar, this life we are in our cocoon, and our potential is to become a beautiful Butterfly. We are going to have to go through a lot of changes before we become like God, but the potential is there.

Also a note about the prophets in out church. They are human. We do not claim them to be fallible. There is a difference when they are speaking in the name of God and when they are speaking their own minds. When the prophet speaks in the name of God his words will be canonized by the church and proclaimed as gospel. If he is speaking his own mind then it will not be canonized as doctrine. For instants the Discourses of Brigham Young. Brigham Young had a lot of ideas that Anti-Mormons love to use against the church, but not all of his thoughts in the discourses were canonized because he was not speaking in the name of God when he spoke them. Prophets are not perfect but we have been promised that they will never lead us or the church astray.

We do not need to know God's History to return to him. These are the only things we really need to know and do.

1) Have faith in God the Father and His son Jesus Christ, and obey their commandments
2) Believe that Christ died to atone for our sins
3) Accept the Bible and the Book of Mormon as the Word of God
4) Be baptized by someone having the authority to act in God's name
5) Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
6) Repent of your sins
7) Attend worship services and take the sacrament
8) Pay tithing unto the lord
9) If you are male receive the Priesthood
10) Follow the living prophet
11) Receive temple ordinances and be sealed to your spouse for time and all eternity.
12) Endure to the end

All other doctrines and beliefs besides these are peripheral and have no bearing on your standing in the church or your relationship with God.


I have some questions for you. How do LDS missionaries employ emotional blackmail? What experiences with missionaries have you had?

 

[water]

1) Have faith in God the Father and His son Jesus Christ, and obey their commandments
2) Believe that Christ died to atone for our sins
3) Accept the Bible and the Book of Mormon as the Word of God
4) Be baptized by someone having the authority to act in God's name
5) Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
6) Repent of your sins
7) Attend worship services and take the sacrament
8) Pay tithing unto the lord
9) If you are male receive the Priesthood
10) Follow the living prophet
11) Receive temple ordinances and be sealed to your spouse for time and all eternity.
12) Endure to the end

WHY would I do that? To be an LDS?

All other doctrines and beliefs besides these are peripheral and have no bearing on your standing in the church or your relationship with God.

How you just assume that you know better.

What do *you* know about *my* relationship with God?

I have some questions for you. How do LDS missionaries employ emotional blackmail?

By friendshipping -- this stands out most egregiously. They called themselves my friends, yet did not do what friends do -- they did not treat me the way they treat their friends (I have asked them about the way they treat their friends). Yet they insisted we are friends.

What experiences with missionaries have you had?

About two and a half years. There's plenty to say.
For a few months, I was what they called "investigator" (not that I had any idea about this term), then I slowly began to become apart from them. However, them insisting on how much they love me and what good friends we are and all that, I felt guilty, and I felt that maybe I am not seeing something. So I stayed, and I was teaching them the local language for the rest of my time with them. (No pay, of course.) They said they don't mind my not being a member, but with time, their unease around me began to show drastically, even with lies and misinformation on their part, and then I broke off contact with them.

If anything, my time with the Mormons was a thorough lesson in "Beware of those who call themselves good people, beware of those who call themselves your friends".

 

[Jenyar]

Brutus1964,

You say the LDS has the fulness of the gospel and the fullness of the truth. What scriptures does LDS consider 'doctrinal'?

I also want to know how they justify a gospel that is different, or in addition to, the one that was considered sufficient by the first apostles, and to which the first churches were compelled to hold on to without deviation?

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.​

Do they call people into Christ, or into their church? Who dispenses salvation, according to the LDS?

 

[duendy]

Brutus...did you ever answer MY post?

 

[Brutus1964]

I am sorry duendy. Could you remind me which one?

 

[Brutus1964]

WHY would I do that? To be an LDS?




How you just assume that you know better.

What do *you* know about *my* relationship with God?




By friendshipping -- this stands out most egregiously. They called themselves my friends, yet did not do what friends do -- they did not treat me the way they treat their friends (I have asked them about the way they treat their friends). Yet they insisted we are friends.




About two and a half years. There's plenty to say.
For a few months, I was what they called "investigator" (not that I had any idea about this term), then I slowly began to become apart from them. However, them insisting on how much they love me and what good friends we are and all that, I felt guilty, and I felt that maybe I am not seeing something. So I stayed, and I was teaching them the local language for the rest of my time with them. (No pay, of course.) They said they don't mind my not being a member, but with time, their unease around me began to show drastically, even with lies and misinformation on their part, and then I broke off contact with them.

If anything, my time with the Mormons was a thorough lesson in "Beware of those who call themselves good people, beware of those who call themselves your friends".

Water

I am sorry your feelings were hurt by the missionaries, but you have to realize why they are out doing what they are doing. They are there to teach the gospel and bring in new converts. Please do not take it personally that they stopped visiting you once you ceased being interested in learning about the church. They are very busy with investigators that are progressing to baptism. As long as you were progressing to that end they could spend time with you, but once they knew that was no longer possible they had to move on. After that they may occasionally call you to see if you are still interested but that is really all they can do.

The missionary’s job is not to fellowship or friendship. That is what the members of the local ward or branch are supposed to do. The missionaries bring you to church and the members are there to help you feel welcome. Once you are there you can make friends with the ward members. Sometimes you can build friendships that will last even if you do not end up joining the church, but sometimes that does not happen unfortunately. I am sorry that did not happen in your case.

Sometimes people feel that if you reject their beliefs that you also reject them. It is a sad thing, but it is human nature.

 

[audible]

Brutus...did you ever answer MY post?

if you read through this thread, you'll notice he has'nt answered, a lot of posts.
they are to close to home, and he has no answer, so he does what all xians do ignore them and hopes they will go away, which I must admit does work a lot of the time, because me, and a lot of posters get fed up of waiting, or bored of asking for a reply.

 

[Brutus1964]

Audible and duendy

That is not true. I try to answer everyones questions. I am sorry if I have missed some. I will have to go through the thread again and see who has not recieved an answer. If I do not know the answer it may take some time to investigate it. I apologize for my tardiness with my responses.

 

[duendy]

Audible and duendy

That is not true. I try to answer everyones questions. I am sorry if I have missed some. I will have to go through the thread again and see who has not recieved an answer. If I do not know the answer it may take some time to investigate it. I apologize for my tardiness with my responses.

It is on page 2

 

[Brutus1964]

Well with that idea you sahre the belief of christianity and New Age. it goes like this: Nature in its natrual state now is fallen, and needs the cloming of christ consciousness to purify it, etc

this is a very dangerous belief. not only cause it locks you into historical time--ie., WAITING for big-daddy to come and save his 'children, but also because the interpreation of trasnfigured matter can include--especially with New Agers--the idea that radioactivity is part of God's plan to bring 'light' and only those of 'his' children will be able to live through the cataclysm

you see, when you poisit a 'good pure he-god. you also deify 'LIFGHT' and denigrate 'Dark', this is revealed in your choice of the ulimate 'no-no'. the 'outer darkness'

what the patriarchs most fear Is Darkness. this fear manifests in fear of the Feminine--who the associate with Nature and darkness-fear of dark-skinned peoples, fear of the unconscious, etc....so rather than cow tow to such nonesense, beging learning about this fear of the dark

for you cannot YHAVe light with out dark, like you cannot have death without life and life without death

this is a wonderful wonderful mystery, but you lot make it as if it is evil and wrong. so you EXPERIENCe it that way, and try and make others do too

Duendy to really answer your questions I would need to know more about what you believe. You write a lot about Goddess and nature, but you need to tell me what your vision of "Goddess" is. Is she an actual deity, or is she more of a force of nature. If it is the latter why do you give her a gender at all? Does nature have feminine qualities that masculinity some how diminishes. You say we fear femininity. What do we fear about it? Most men hold women and femininity in very high regard. I believe that masculinity and femininity complement each other very well. It may be good to start a thread on what your beliefs are. If you have already please give me a link to it so I can learn more. Also some websites and references would be good.

As far as light and darkness. Light has always been associated with good. When god said "let there be light" he saw that it was good, and he divided the light from the darkness. Darkness is associated with evil because it cuts us off from our sences and brings us into the unknown.

 

[duendy]

Duendy to really answer your questions I would need to know more about what you believe. You write a lot about Goddess and nature, but you need to tell me what your vision of "Goddess" is. Is she an actual deity, or is she more of a force of nature. If it is the latter why do you give her a gender at all?

D__ Goddess is originally is androgynous, or hermaphrodite. Why give her gender? Is is more understandable that creation wuld come from Female than male, for it is the female who actually carries foetus and gives birth. So it is understandable the ancinet notion of Nature being 'Mother Earth, no? But masculinity is also part of that, though not the lodin it over 'male' deity who gives birth. When THat happens as documented in myth--as in where male gods beging doing a female role of giving birth--is when we get the demonization of Goddess, Nature, women etc etc

Does nature have feminine qualities that masculinity some how diminishes.

D__Goddess religion did not demonize masculinity. Of course the major difference between 'God' and 'Goddess' is that the former is made to be transcendental, whilst the latter is that AND IMMANENT. Is Body, and IS Nature. Thus Nature then doesn't become demonized but is deeply respected.

You say we fear femininity. What do we fear about it?

D__Nature; the dark; sexuality for its own pleasureable sake; ecstasy-especially as inspired with hallucinogenics; other forms of sexuality, and gender-bender differences; death: the 'underworld/'the unconscious; ambiguity......

Most men hold women and femininity in very high regard. I believe that masculinity and femininity complement each other very well. It may be good to start a thread on what your beliefs are. If you have already please give me a link to it so I can learn more. Also some websites and references would be good.

Well i am revealing my beliefs in every post i do. i tried to start a couple of threads some others hinted at, like you. Did, and they have gotten ignored......?

 

[water]

I am sorry your feelings were hurt by the missionaries, but you have to realize why they are out doing what they are doing. They are there to teach the gospel and bring in new converts. Please do not take it personally that they stopped visiting you once you ceased being interested in learning about the church. They are very busy with investigators that are progressing to baptism. As long as you were progressing to that end they could spend time with you, but once they knew that was no longer possible they had to move on. After that they may occasionally call you to see if you are still interested but that is really all they can do.

The missionary’s job is not to fellowship or friendship. That is what the members of the local ward or branch are supposed to do. The missionaries bring you to church and the members are there to help you feel welcome. Once you are there you can make friends with the ward members. Sometimes you can build friendships that will last even if you do not end up joining the church, but sometimes that does not happen unfortunately. I am sorry that did not happen in your case.

Sometimes people feel that if you reject their beliefs that you also reject them. It is a sad thing, but it is human nature.

You have no f****** idea what exactly happened.

You begin to apologize for them -- without ever even FIRST investigating what happened.

You are the same superficial, patronizing, condescending, smarmy coward as them.

Shame on you.

Shame on you.