duendy said:questions....you efute the accusation that Mormonism is a form of slavery to some deity. so i ask you to define what you mean by 'must'--as n when you claim that despite everything, in the end we 'MUST accept your God's plan
2nd..how do mormons feel about Nature in its natrual state? are you with me? for example christians for the pre-mormon congragations believe Nature as needing purificatio
So do you see our world as inferior? you said above that even the 'outer kingdoms' or summat like that is better than life here
Truth51 said:I spot an inconsistency here. If God presented a plan to all of us living here, and we chose to accept it, why am I a christian? Are you saying Hitler followed God's plan by killing millions? If we knew that Mormonism was "The way", we would all be mormons, because we would know for sure there was a god. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.
your silly pussy footing as deudy said "must" is an enfordement word and I've saidBrutus1964 said:No where along the way has God "forced" you to do anything. We have had the choice all along, even before we were born. How is the potential to be like God a form of slavery? Even if you fall short and reach the lowest Kingdom aside from Outer Darkness itself is a kingdom vastly superior than what we have now.
we are slaves to gravity and we are slaves to the laws of physics, because we dont have a choice in these matters but we do have a choice when it come s to your god, else I would not be an atheist, would I. but what if I want to be cut of from your god and jesus, can I do this, or do I have to prostrate myself infront of them, as that is enforced slavery.Brutus1964 said:To say that we are slaves to God is like saying we are slaves to gravity, or slaves to the laws of physics. Every action has a consequence. You can choose to jump off a cliff if you want, but you cannot choose the messy outcome. You can choose to disobey God but you cannot choose the consequence of that which is to be cut off from God forever. Luckily we have a loving God who provided a savior Jesus Christ to redeem us and give us a way back to him.
Philippians 2:10-11 KJF
10:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth
11:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
the obivious being enforced slavery.Brutus1964 said:mustafhakofi and Duendy
If you choose to wait till the last instant to do this it will be in front of God and Christ in person. By that time it will be merely acknowledging the obvious.
duendy said:questions....you efute the accusation that Mormonism is a form of slavery to some deity. so i ask you to define what you mean by 'must'--as n when you claim that despite everything, in the end we 'MUST accept your God's plan
2nd..how do mormons feel about Nature in its natrual state? are you with me? for example christians for the pre-mormon congragations believe Nature as needing purificatio
So do you see our world as inferior? you said above that even the 'outer kingdoms' or summat like that is better than life here
Moses 1:39 Pearl of Great Price (LDS Scripture)
"This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"
BOOK OF MORMON. 2 Nephi 2:25 25 “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”
Jenyar said:"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits inthroned in yonder heavens!...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." Joseph Smith, Jr., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH 6:305.But the Bible does not teach that God is a glorified man:
For I am God, and not man (Hosea 11:9)
God is not a man...nor a son of man (Num 23:19)
God is Spirit (John 4:24)
The Bible also says man was formed from the dust of the ground, and that this body received God's spirit (Gen. 2:7). How does this fit in with pre-existence?
We know some intriguing details about Christ - that He once was man (or like man, though Only Begotten Son of God), that He was divine, that He died and resurrected and sits on His throne with the Father, with whom He is one. One can speculate on analogies between Christ and the Father, but we know essentially nothing about the "history" of God the Father except that He is eternal. Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church, once said "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." This controversial passage is clearly applicable to Christ, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God. His work made it possible for us to become as He is, in a limited sense, for we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45), we can become "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2). Indeed, Christ even went so far at to say, "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), in reference to the divine potential of human beings. While He and the Father are the one true God, whom we will always worship, He does want us to become more like the Father (Matt. 5:48) and that possibility is there because of Christ. Thus, thinking of Christ and our relationship to Him, what Lorenzo Snow said is accurate. However, it appears that Lorenzo Snow's quote also applies to the Father, indicating that He also experienced a period of mortality, but we know nothing specific. But before you let the idea of "God once being like man" offend you, remember that it is explicitly true about Christ Himself. If Christ were the same being as God the Father, then it would also be true of the Father as well, so non-LDS critics who accept the doctrine of the Trinity shouldn't get so upset. Of course, we believe that God and Christ are separate individuals, one in purpose, heart, and mind. But, in the spirit of pure speculation, let me ask if it is possible that Christ, during His mission on the earth, was doing that which He had seen the Father do? In John 5:19, Christ said "The Son can do nothing, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Some people have speculated on what is meant by John 5:19 and on what Lorenzo Snow meant, but we do not know and I get very nervous when people pretend they know. Certainly there are many difficult and foolish questions which can be asked in this arena. The important point is that God, Christ, and man are of the same "species," and that man has divine potential to become more like Christ and the Father (e.g., see Romans 8:14-18; 2 Peter 1:4-10; 1 John 3:2). This concept was understood by the early Christians, as I show at "http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml".
Brutus, thanks for the links and quote, but they don't answer my question satisfactorily.Brutus1964 said:Jenyar
These are not my own words but I believe it answers your question quite well.
There are other very good answers to other question as well.
www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relationships.shtml#man
Our potential is to be spiritually like God, in love and justice (brought on our knowledge of Him), and this is how we must live in relationship with Him. But that is quite different from the 'theosis' defined by the Mormon church. Romans 8:14-18, 2 Peter 1:4-10, 1 John 3:2 are given as proof, but look at what they say:The important point is that God, Christ, and man are of the same "species," and that man has divine potential to become more like Christ and the Father
Brutus1964 said:I will admit that we are subject to God just like a child is subject to a parent.
d___so i would suggest you grow UP do NOT cowtow to a myth that keeps you as a child. it is patronizing, and basically, if you were bold enough to look (i dont mean this in a condescending way. it can be VERy tough to break out of cultic beliefs, especially when indoctrinated with sicne childhood) you would see the authority you area a 'child too' is not 'God' but MALE authority!
Just like we are subject to the laws of physics, time, death, and all sorts of limitation inherent in a mortal life.
d__ Yes, in abover threads you say we are as much enslaved to 'God' as we are to gravity, death, etc. Well, i dont SEE that as enslavement. Listen closely--THe patriarchal fear is exactly that! that Nature enslaves--the Mother enslaves. so the little fathers try and break loose from 'Fate and Necessity'....but you shold realize that Nature is not enslavement, what Is are ridiculous beliefs of escape which create divisivenss against out natrualness and Nature. if gravity wasn't with us we'dd all not be able to participate In Nature. so the coparison is absurd
However, God has given us free agency.
d_
d))) well, that's YOUR interpretation. i hear 'MUST'
_
In this life we can choose to disobey him and not immediately feel the consequences. I do not see a problem with being subject to a perfect God who loves us and wants us to have the joy that he has to offer.
d__ the problem is your concept of a 'perfect' God. the second you posit 'perfection' in a transcendental deity, then anothing else that isn't with your belief is imperfect--Nature, those not beliving you, people who cant make the grade etc
Would you want to live in a world with no death, no pain, no conflict, no evil?
D__you haven't thought deeply about what you wish for. try and inmagine 'ONLY pleasure'...or 'only life'. how would you KNOW pleasure less you IKNOw pain? really think about this cause it will reveal to you that you can NEVEr have one without the other. it is an absurdly naive patriarchal idea that you can. it's like saying you can have up without down, or inside without outside. it truly does not make any sense
That is the world that awaits even the worst of us except for those that have earned Outer Darkness. Better to be subject to God and have joy than be subject to Satan and suffer. Or to be subject to what atheists promise. To have no consciousness of life after we die, to not exist at all?
d__errrm , if you didn't exist at all you would have no AWARENESs you weren't existing at all.....so why worry about that?
It would be as if we never existed in the first place. I choose to be subject to God than oblivion.
d__you'd sooner be a slave than oblivion. i believe in neither of your propsitions, but if i had to choose it'd be the latter
A slave master does what he does for his own selfish purposes. A slave does not benifit from his own labors.
d__well i cant see how you lot benefit. i am seeing wasted unique intelligence, and adhering to naive beliefs
God does what he does for us. Because he loves us and wants us to be happy.
d__you are trusting some dodgy prophet more like. actually, i am anti-prophets
Duendy. When it sais "men" and "man" it means all mankind including women so it is not sexist.
D__ i hear this a lot. some others say callin 'God' 'him' and 'father' doesn't mean they are male
...errrright
These things were written before political correctness you know.
d__they were/are written by the very patriarchs themselves!
LDS consider humans to have dominion over the Earth, however God requires us to be good stewards. It is a sin to intentionally harm the Earth. I don't know if it is official church doctrine but many Mormons believe that The Earth has a soul and is itself an intellegent Being. I myself believe this to be.
D__If so, better to research about the original earth religion of Goddess. rather than some confused patriarchal manifesto that gives out confusing contradictions
When Christ returns this Earth will go back to the state like it was in the Garden of Eden, and then after a thousand years of peace the Earth will be purifed and become the Celestial Kingdom.