Mormon Teachings

[Marlin]

So if all revelation must be measured against these, how is anything every "new"? How can revelation be "continued" if all that is necessary is already known?

We believe (to paraphrase one of our Articles of Faith) all that God has revealed, all that He now reveals, and that He will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the kingdom of God.

We don't have all truth. Not yet, anyway. Revelation is continued when prophets give us advice and council more specifically geared to our day and our problems. We readily agree that there is much that we don't know about God and His kingdom.

 

[Marlin]

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that men can become Gods, or that temple participation is necessary to become exalted (or that doctrine should be voted on, for that matter)?

Some doctrines are not in the Book of Mormon. However, as the site below says, "As shown above, this doctrine can be absent from the Book of Mormon without compromising its claim to containing the fullness of the gospel."

Does the Book of Mormon Contain the Fulness of the Gospel?

 

[Jenyar]

We believe (to paraphrase one of our Articles of Faith) all that God has revealed, all that He now reveals, and that He will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the kingdom of God.

We don't have all truth. Not yet, anyway. Revelation is continued when prophets give us advice and council more specifically geared to our day and our problems. We readily agree that there is much that we don't know about God and His kingdom.

Then why call it the "full" gospel, if it isn't full yet? Why call a book "Mormon Doctrine" if it can't be referred to for "Mormon Doctrine"? Since most of your doctrines aren't even contained in the Book of Mormon (like some things Joseph Smith said in his King Follet discourse), are we supposed to pray about the other three standard woks as well?

Mormons claim to have restored a post-John, pre-Nicene gospel, but you can't tell me what exactly went missing during those years that are so necessary (and doesn't contradict the Bible). Your main argument is that the LDS church dispenses something only they have the authority to dispense, somehow leaving all other Christians "out of the loop" - even though Christ himself holds the authority as head of his church.

PS. What your site claims as the "full gospel" is already plain in the Bible. It also makes me wonder why you claim to know so little, if you believe their explanations to be trustworthy:

"God is an exalted man."
"God is a product of eternal progression."

While not stated directly, these concepts can be inferred from the Book of Mormon's teaching that God has a body of flesh and bones and that men can become as God is.​

Does this mean it's now official doctrine again?

 

[Marlin]

Jenyar, you know what? You believe exactly as you please and cast off any truths you don't want to accept. If you don't want exaltation, God won't force it on you.

And yes, we are supposed to pray about all things which we would accept as truth, including the "other three standard works." And about everything the prophets today say. We aren't supposed to be mindless automatons, accepting blindly every doctrine that comes along. We are to use our faculties of thought, reasoning, intelligence, feeling, and heart when we read or otherwise receive that which we are told is true by the prophets. No one has to accept anything blindly, without inspiration.

 

[Marlin]

PS. What your site claims as the "full gospel" is already plain in the Bible. It also makes me wonder why you claim to know so little, if you believe their explanations to be trustworthy:
"God is an exalted man."
"God is a product of eternal progression."

While not stated directly, these concepts can be inferred from the Book of Mormon's teaching that God has a body of flesh and bones and that men can become as God is.
Does this mean it's now official doctrine again?

The more you know, the more you realize you don't know. This is true of the sciences as well. No, just because an LDS web site says it, that doesn't make it official doctrine. But we can speculate on the issues without them being official.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar, you know what? You believe exactly as you please and cast off any truths you don't want to accept. If you don't want exaltation, God won't force it on you.

And yes, we are supposed to pray about all things which we would accept as truth, including the "other three standard works." And about everything the prophets today say. We aren't supposed to be mindless automatons, accepting blindly every doctrine that comes along. We are to use our faculties of thought, reasoning, intelligence, feeling, and heart when we read or otherwise receive that which we are told is true by the prophets. No one has to accept anything blindly, without inspiration.

And yet, when push comes to shove, you would rather believe these things blindly than try to find out whether they contradict the Bible. The reason I cast those "truths" off is that they fly in the face of the most basic and well-attested Hebrew and Christian thought, and so it seems to me more "new" than "truth". No amount of prayer will resolve those difficulties, and I find it unreasonable to believe in them if they contradict the Bible. As far as they simply expand on the Bible, I'm just as ready as you to say "I don't know much about it" and be content with that - because I can't justify believing "exactly as I please".

If it can't be shown from first principles, it's either speculation or redundant. It just seems dishonest to call something "revelation" if you're not going to treat it as such.

 

[Marlin]

Ah, the old "The Bible is the fourth member of the Godhead" reasoning. How is it that you know the Bible is true, I wonder, if not through reading, studying, and praying about it and receiving confirmation of its truthfulness through the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jenyar]

Ah, the old "The Bible is the fourth member of the Godhead" reasoning. How is it that you know the Bible is true, I wonder, if not through reading, studying, and praying about it and receiving confirmation of its truthfulness through the Holy Spirit?

Quite simply because the Bible contains the testimonies of the first disciples, apostles and witnesses, whom Christ trusted while He was on earth, doing what He came to do. Of all historical figures, I find this Christ to be the most trustworthy person of all, and I find the authors of the Bible to be a trustworthy and reliable witness to him. And the more I talk to Mormons, the more I appreciate why the first Christians decided to close the canon and declare it authoritive. It left Christians with no excuse to believe a new gospel.

In contrast, I don't find good reason trust Joseph Smith or any of his apostles, and even less reason to trust any of the scriptures they left behind. A big reason is that most Mormons don't seem to trust these themselves, even though all "revelations" have to rely on them in the end. I must presume that the early Mormons likewise read about, prayed, studied and believed the things you are so quick to dismiss or profess no partcular knowledge of.

I'm would have been sure you would do the same, if I didn't see you doubt the first saints and believe the "latter" ones.

My salvation depends on Christ alone, and I'm in no small way indebted to the authors of the Bible for my faith - not in partcular because of their Bible, but because of the church they sustained through the writings that became the Bible. The overcame, even in the face of apostasy and false teachings. Their testimony is mine, just as theirs was Christ's. This collective testimony is the gospel, and it's never been lost.

 

[Marlin]

My question was, how do you know the Bible is true?

Your answer, apparently, is because the apostles say it is true in the Bible.

How do you know the apostles knew what they were talking about?

Because the Bible says they did.

Hmm...

 

[Jenyar]

My question was, how do you know the Bible is true?

Your answer, apparently, is because the apostles say it is true in the Bible.

How do you know the apostles knew what they were talking about?

Because the Bible says they did.

Hmm...

It's only circular if you doubt the testimony of the Spirit to the church, which I don't. I believe the people who heard, believed, and strove to preserve the gospel. I trust Christ, and I trust his disciples. I believe the Bible because it talks about this Christ they knew and whom I've come to know, and because I've come to know what they were talking about; I don't believe in Christ simply because they or the Bible says I must. If I did that, I'd have no way of knowing whether Mormonism was any less trustworthy, but since I know Christ, I have a way of knowing.

 

[Marlin]

It's only circular if you doubt the testimony of the Spirit to the church, which I don't.

Yet it is that same Spirit which validates the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

I believe the people who heard, believed, and strove to preserve the gospel. I trust Christ, and I trust his disciples. I believe the Bible because it talks about this Christ they knew and whom I've come to know, and because I've come to know what they were talking about; I don't believe in Christ simply because they or the Bible says I must. If I did that, I'd have no way of knowing whether Mormonism was any less trustworthy, but since I know Christ, I have a way of knowing.

Good answer. Yet again, Christ will bear record to you that the Book of Mormon is true, even as He told you that the Bible is true, if you will pay the price to gain such a testimony. What is that price? Read the Book of Mormon, study it, and pray about it. Moroni 10:3-5 gives you the instructions you need to verify its truthfulness. I challenge you to read this book and study it out in your mind, then ask Christ if it is true or not. He will answer in the affirmative if you do it right.

 

[Jenyar]

Yet it is that same Spirit which validates the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

In the face of the difficulties and assumptions involved, I believe that's wishful thinking.

Good answer. Yet again, Christ will bear record to you that the Book of Mormon is true, even as He told you that the Bible is true, if you will pay the price to gain such a testimony. What is that price? Read the Book of Mormon, study it, and pray about it. Moroni 10:3-5 gives you the instructions you need to verify its truthfulness. I challenge you to read this book and study it out in your mind, then ask Christ if it is true or not. He will answer in the affirmative if you do it right.

There might be truth in the Book of Mormon, but what I've read merely repeats what I've read the Bible in some way or another. And if it dates to the time it is supposed to be from, the Bible is infinitely more relevant as a witness to the atonement and resurrection, which pertains to my salvation and God's gift of it. I have no desire for more than that (such desires have historically been regarded as temptations), and will stand by what God has seen fit to give in His grace while doing what every Christian considers his duty. Practicing Christ's commandment of love, and preaching the gospel of his salvation "while we were still sinners".

 

[Marlin]

If you never take the test, you will never know one way or another.

 

[Jenyar]

If you never take the test, you will never know one way or another.

It's a lose-lose situation: I have to keep praying until you're happy, and until then my sincerity is questioned.

Like you said, we use our faculties of thought, reasoning, intelligence, feeling, and heart. If they don't all agree, doubt must remain, and I consider it a healthy position in the light of the warnings given in the Bible - given by people whose integrity I do not doubt.

 

[Marlin]

Doubt my integrity all you want--after all, I'm "still...[a] sinner" and not perfect in any way.

Keep believing in Christ, even if you reject the LDS view. He will not lead you astray, and His doctrine will enlighten your paths always.

 

[Jenyar]

Doubt my integrity all you want--after all, I'm "still...[a] sinner" and not perfect in any way.

Keep believing in Christ, even if you reject the LDS view. He will not lead you astray, and His doctrine will enlighten your paths always.

It's not your integrity that decides this. Your own testimony depends on the validity of the message you believed, and it's the veracity of that message that I doubt, the integrity of its first prophets and apostles - those who were supposed to be witnesses. Not because of a sinful nature, but because of their distance from the gospel of Christ - the gospel He entrusted to his disciples. Their claims simpply do not stand up to the test of a prophet or correspond to the history of God's salvation. Israel wouldn't even move from the spot without without God going with them, and the neither would Christ's disciples - those who loved Him with heart, mind and soul. God always preserved a remnant so that his promise would be kept alive for all generations. So without some concrete evidence of a greater apostasy than the apostles were already dealing with among the first churches, the Mormon claims remain suspiciously like the first temptation by the serpent: "Did God really say...?"

 

[Marlin]

Here are some sites on the Great Apostasy. Disclaimer: I am in the process or reading these myself, so I am not really any kind of authority on the issue. These are for further reading for a more comprehensive understanding of LDS beliefs, for those who are interested.

Biblcal Evidences of the Apostasy

Apostasy Recognized by Reformationists

Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity

The Corruption of Scripture in the Second Century

Whither the Early Church?

Early Signs of the Apostasy

Apostasy and Restoration

The Loss of Apostolic Authority in the Early Church

 

[Jenyar]

Don't you see something strange about quoting the Bible for evidence of a great apostasy that was supposed to render it untrustworthy? And a quick read through yuor articles gives me the impression that most of those arguments would throw the same doubts on the success of the Mormon church (although being all Mormon sites, they would not admit this), and that the proofs of "corruption" indicate that corruption can be detected and therefore countered without divine intervention on the scale Mormonism requires.

Speculation about a "great" or total apostasy does not mean the warnings against apostasy (in general) indicate it happened. The warnings are against "some" that will fall away, depart "from" their number, "many" will grow cold - this is far from a loss of the crucial gospel! In all other instances the Bible cross-references itself repeatedly, why not its central theme of salvation?

 

[Marlin]

Once again, I must say this: if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and the Church he founded is true. So if you would just read the Book of Mormon, study it, and pray about it, you can know for yourself whether it is true or not. I expect you to find yet more excuses not to read it, but it is the key upon which all Mormon doctrine stands or falls. You can get a free Book of Mormon here:

Free Book of Mormon

 

[Jenyar]

Historically, Joseph Smith came first, then the Book of Mormon. Just like Christ came first, then the Testimony. If you're not convinced of the legitimacy of God's promise of a messiah and the disciples' acceptance of Jesus' claims, then their testimony will hold no value for you no matter how much it warms your heart to read it. Or if someone doesn't believe God exists, the whole Bible is meaningless no matter what the Israelites went through. And the circumstances surrounding Joseph Smith's revelations are suspicious in a way that the circumstances surrounding Christ weren't. The whole of history imploded upon Jesus, as if creation was prepared for Him even though humanity wasn't; Joseph Smith's gospel throws doubt on His legacy just too readily - it tries to build on something it distrusts inherently. I'm not sure whether this is a good argument or not, but something definitely picks at the back of my mind. It's as if he's saying "trust me, God failed; I'm your only hope" - he stands central, the Book of Mormon is just his passport into your life, after which the rest of his gospel is smuggled through "unoffically".