Mormon Teachings

[Marlin]

Then what's the point of calling Him "one"? And don't you further believe that humans are being added to that "Godhead" every day - not spirtually, as the Bible uses it, but physically?

Humans don't become part of the Godhead, even if they are "one" with God in purpose and heart. Where did you get that idea?

The body is a temporary tent that will be thrown off (2 Peter 1:13) and changed into a spiritual body. "If Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10). "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6).

The Mormon view is that we will be bodily resurrected in a perfect, immortal body that is physical as well as spiritual. God and Jesus themselves have physical bodies as well.

That is hardly a good analogy, since love is a spiritual quality, and that's not the sense in which God is called spirit (which is why He can't be seen). He is not always experienced just in spirit, since even the Spirit once manifested itself as a dove. Saying that God is always manifested in a human body is like saying the Holy Spirit is always and only manifested as a dove.

Nevertheless, we Mormons will keep proclaiming that God has a physical body. I think you are misunderstanding the Godhead, if you think Mormons don't believe that God manifests Himself spiritually. He does, as the Holy Spirit is a spirit and doesn't have a physical body. It is through the Spirit that we communicate with God.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar, you don't have to accept what the LDS Church offers, but that means you won't get as high a salvation as it promises, either. It's true, one may be saved without receiving baptism by one in authority while living on the earth; however, if you never receive the baptism, you will never be exalted. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints offers exaltation to its faithful members. Whether you accept this or not is totally up to you. You can cling to false doctrines if you wish, but the truth of the matter is, if you don't ever accept the ordinances of the Church, you won't be saved in the highest degree of salvation.

So now they're false doctrines. Before they were just "insufficient"...

Personally, I don't think the desire to be exalted or "get as high a salvation" as possible is compatible with the humility Christ taught. It's wonderful if the LDS are able to promise you such honours, but I'd rather do as the apostles advised the believers and hold onto the plain gospel as they preserved it - as Christ promised it will be preserved - even if that means attaining a lower salvation in the end. My works couldn't get me into God's kingdom (whether terrestial, telestial or celestial) before, and I'm not convinced it will ever be able to. I have been baptized and with my fellow-believers I remember my Saviour in communion, as Christ taught.

We do make a covenant with God at baptism. God works with man through this covenant, which is fundamental to salvation. Without this covenant, God is not obligated to save anyone. Those who keep the baptismal covenant and higher covenants will gain much more than those who don't accept such covenants.

God was never obliged to save anyone, which is why we call it "grace".

As for what we may gain, my hope is on Christ. And as far as I'm convinced, everyone who labours for Him get the same wages. I "agreed to work for a denarius" (Matt. 20:13), and that's all I expect to get.

 

[Marlin]

Personally, I don't think the desire to be exalted or "get as high a salvation" as possible is compatible with the humility Christ taught. It's wonderful if the LDS are able to promise you such honours, but I'd rather do as the apostles advised the believers and hold onto the plain gospel as they preserved it - as Christ promised it will be preserved - even if that means attaining a lower salvation in the end.

Actually, the more humble you get, the more you want to do what Christ wants for you. He wants us all to be exalted, so those who humble themselves before Him and do His commandments will want what He wants for us: exaltation.

 

[Jenyar]

Humans don't become part of the Godhead, even if they are "one" with God in purpose and heart. Where did you get that idea?

If by exaltation a man becomes "god" as much as Christ was ever "God", it follows that he is as much part of the "godhead" (as you describe it) as Christ ever was. This "godhead" becomes little more than a superficial distinction, a way to talk about these three gods as opposed to those three or four or five gods.

Philippians 2:1-2 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.​

Thus we are called to be one with Christ, but in Mormon theology this means more than a superficial, "as far as our nature allows" likeness, it means of the same essence. It doesn't mean "one body" according to its own unique glory (1 Cor. 15:40), but according to God's glory.

 

[Jenyar]

Actually, the more humble you get, the more you want to do what Christ wants for you. He wants us all to be exalted, so those who humble themselves before Him and do His commandments will want what He wants for us: exaltation.

Then let Him give it. He has the authority to do so, more than any Aaronic or "Melchizedek" Mormon priest - you said so yourself.

 

[Marlin]

If by exaltation a man becomes "god" as much as Christ was ever "God", it follows that he is as much part of the "godhead" (as you describe it) as Christ ever was. This "godhead" becomes little more than a superficial distinction, a way to talk about these three gods as opposed to those three or four or five gods.

So if I become CEO of Toyota, that means that I am CEO over all car companies? That doesn't follow. Deification of man doesn't mean that we are ever equal with God. Even those of us who get exalted don't ever lose their subordinate state in regards to God. He will always be our God and our Father.

Philippians 2:1-2 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.​

Thus we are called to be one with Christ, but in Mormon theology this means more than a superficial, "as far as our nature allows" likeness, it means of the same essence. It doesn't mean "one body" according to its own unique glory (1 Cor. 15:40), but according to God's glory.

No, we are never "of the same essence" with Christ. He is always and forever above us and our God. Again, we may become as God is without losing our subordinate status in regards to Him.

 

[Marlin]

Then let Him give it. He has the authority to do so, more than any Aaronic or "Melchizedek" Mormon priest - you said so yourself.

He may only give exaltation to those who obey Him and receive His ordinances, keeping His commandments to the end. Only those who do this are justified and become as He is.

 

[Jenyar]

So if I become CEO of Toyota, that means that I am CEO over all car companies? That doesn't follow. Deification of man doesn't mean that we are ever equal with God. Even those of us who get exalted don't ever lose their subordinate state in regards to God. He will always be our God and our Father.

So you don't believe God was once a man as we are now?

No, we are never "of the same essence" with Christ. He is always and forever above us and our God. Again, we may become as God is without losing our subordinate status in regards to Him.

But that's only a relative status, isn't it? He's only "higher" in the sense that He is "older", in the sense that you may never become your father even if you grow up to be just like him, a father yourself. If nobody but God can ever be God, in what way do you become a god like him (anymore than you already are)?

He may only give exaltation to those who obey Him and receive His ordinances, keeping His commandments to the end. Only those who do this are justified and become as He is.

Except that the Bible teaches God justifies us himself. "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies" (Rom. 8:33), and "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

Acts 13:38-39
Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.​

 

[Marlin]

So you don't believe God was once a man as we are now?

I have no idea whether He was or not. It really is something we Mormons don't know much about. The couplet that says, "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become," is not official LDS doctrine, although we definitely believe in the deification of man.

But that's only a relative status, isn't it? He's only "higher" in the sense that He is "older", in the sense that you may never become your father even if you grow up to be just like him, a father yourself. If nobody but God can ever be God, in what way do you become a god like him (anymore than you already are)?

We are His children and are meant to become like Him. I myself do not understand all there is to know about deification, so I really can't answer your question here authoritatively. We simply don't know much about the ultimate state of Man, other than that we will be like Christ, joint-heirs in God's Kingdom, if we will keep the commandments and receive the saving ordinances.

 

[Marlin]

Except that the Bible teaches God justifies us himself.

It is not hearers of the word who are justified, but doers of the word.

So God justifies the doers of the word. Yes, He is the one who justifies us, but we must *do* the word (keep the commandments) in order to gain his justification.

No one is justified by the law--that is, the Law of Moses. But we must keep the Law of Christ--that is, obedience to the commandments He gave us--to be justified by Him.

 

[Jenyar]

I have no idea whether He was or not. It really is something we Mormons don't know much about. The couplet that says, "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become," is not official LDS doctrine, although we definitely believe in the deification of man.

Yes, the same wavering that Gordon Hinckley showed in Time Magazine. Yet prophet Brigham Young said:

The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man. ... He once possessed a body, as we now do; and our bodies are as much to us, as his body to him. Every iota of this organization is necessary to secure for us an exaltation with the Gods. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p.286)​

You might have the luxury to disbelieve it today, but if it's false, how did Lorenzo Snow ever utter the words in all authority, and how was he believed by Joseph Smith, Bruce McConkie, (even Hinckley himself, who added "our enemies have criticized us for believing in this") and so many elders under them? (I did my best to check the sources online, and as far as I can see they're in context). What is being taught today by prophets and elders that might be revoked or doubted in a few years? Does God, who places so much emphasis on valid authority and the precise teaching of his gospel, tolerate such pseudo-doctrines? Are Mormon apostles and prophets just as fallible and prone to forget as the Christians of the apostasy?

We are His children and are meant to become like Him. I myself do not understand all there is to know about deification, so I really can't answer your question here authoritatively. We simply don't know much about the ultimate state of Man, other than that we will be like Christ, joint-heirs in God's Kingdom, if we will keep the commandments and receive the saving ordinances.

You already answered it, but you just won't say it in so many words. Your argument at the moment seems to be "I'm not sure what it means, but whatever it is, it's more complete than what you believe". The Bible says we are already joint-heirs with Christ if we believe in Him (and the Spirit is the assurance of this). As we participate in Christ's nature and put our hope in Him, we share in God's promise to Israel, become heirs with them (Eph. 3:6), and inherit his life.

 

[Marlin]

Jenyar, the Brigham Young quote is what Brigham Young personally believed. It is not official doctrine. Official LDS doctrine is limited to the canon of scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). Anything other than official doctrine is...well, unofficial and is not required of us to believe. The prophets are fallible and sometimes express their own opinions. For the doctrine to become official, it has to be presented in General Conference and accepted by the membership as such. Otherwise we aren't required to believe it.

 

[Jenyar]

It is not hearers of the word who are justified, but doers of the word.

So God justifies the doers of the word. Yes, He is the one who justifies us, but we must *do* the word (keep the commandments) in order to gain his justification.

No, it's those who do the law who are consider righteous (Rom. 2:13), but only in accordance with faith. Apart from God's grace, Jesus taught no other law than that of Moses, and if you want to be justified by any law - it must be that one, and for that your righteousness must surpass even that of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

Romans 3:27-2
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.​

No one is justified by the law--that is, the Law of Moses. But we must keep the Law of Christ--that is, obedience to the commandments He gave us--to be justified by Him.

John 15:10-17
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other.​

 

[Marlin]

No, it's those who do the law who are consider righteous (Rom. 2:13), but only in accordance with faith. Apart from God's grace, Jesus taught no other law than that of Moses, and if you want to be justified by any law - it must be that one, and for that your righteousness must surpass even that of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

Jesus taught no other law than grace? That's news to me. Read the Sermon on the Mount to understand the teachings of Jesus that fulfilled and surpassed the Law of Moses. As in, "You have heard it said of old time..." followed by "But I say now...". As in, adultery is condemned by the old law, but lust itself is condemned by the new. Murder is condemned by the old law, but being angry with your brother is condemned by the new. And so on. The four gospels are full of Jesus's teachings, and they certainly are not to be cast away as superfluous and unnecessary to salvation.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar, the Brigham Young quote is what Brigham Young personally believed. It is not official doctrine. Official LDS doctrine is limited to the canon of scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). Anything other than official doctrine is...well, unofficial and is not required of us to believe. The prophets are fallible and sometimes express their own opinions. For the doctrine to become official, it has to be presented in General Conference and accepted by the membership as such. Otherwise we aren't required to believe it.

It seems that the only thing official in Mormonism is that nothing is official. None of the special revelations, at any rate.

Tell me. Once a "doctrine" has been accepted at a General Conference, is it added to the four standard works?

 

[Jenyar]

Jesus taught no other law than grace? That's news to me. Read the Sermon on the Mount to understand the teachings of Jesus that fulfilled and surpassed the Law of Moses. As in, "You have heard it said of old time..." followed by "But I say now...". As in, adultery is condemned by the old law, but lust itself is condemned by the new. Murder is condemned by the old law, but being angry with your brother is condemned by the new. And so on. The four gospels are full of Jesus's teachings, and they certainly are not to be cast away as superfluous and unnecessary to salvation.

Exactly. If you want to be saved by the law, you have to meet that standard. It's under this law that we are all stand condemned, and it only shows us why we need His grace.

 

[Marlin]

It seems that the only thing official in Mormonism is that nothing is official. None of the special revelations, at any rate.

Tell me. Once a "doctrine" has been accepted at a General Conference, is it added to the four standard works?

I believe so. The Manifesto on polygamy and the Revelation on the Priesthood were both added to the D&C long after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young died (the former in 1890 and the latter in 1978).

 

[Jenyar]

I believe so. The Manifesto on polygamy and the Revelation on the Priesthood were both added to the D&C long after Joseph Smith and Brigham Young died (the former in 1890 and the latter in 1978).

So what did Joseph Smith officially restore?

 

[Marlin]

So what did Joseph Smith officially restore?

The Priesthood and the fulness of the Gospel. The Book of Mormon. The D&C and Pearl of Great Price. The keys to the saving ordinances. Baptism for the dead. Celestial marriage. Endowments. Answers to great mysteries. Light and truth.

 

[Jenyar]

The Priesthood and the fulness of the Gospel. The Book of Mormon. The D&C and Pearl of Great Price. The keys to the saving ordinances. Baptism for the dead. Celestial marriage. Endowments. Answers to great mysteries. Light and truth.

So if all revelation must be measured against these, how is anything every "new"? How can revelation be "continued" if all that is necessary is already known?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that men can become Gods, or that temple participation is necessary to become exalted (or that doctrine should be voted on, for that matter)?