Mohammad's Character

[S.A.M.]

Ya thats a Shia custom practised in Iran, Iraq and India by less than 10% of Muslims. They consider it as "normal" as Africans do their rites of passage.

All religious scholars have passed fatwas denouncing it [Islam is anti-mutilation] but they don't care.

Now how is that related to suicide bombers and human shields? Or are you just throwing in anything from Spencers site to justify your anti-Muslim stance?

edit: well apparently some of them do care

Around 1,200 Shia Muslims have donated blood instead of flagellating themselves during religious ceremonies for Ashura, the Afghan government says.

The donations are part of a new programme supported by the government and some Shia clerics.

They are opposed to the practice of self-flagellation, during which people draw their own blood.

The government says the programme has been a success, with more than 500 litres of blood already donated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7820746.stm

 

[(Q)]

Ya thats a Shia custom practised in Iran, Iraq and India by less than 10% of Muslims.

That would be about 150 million people. That's a lot of childrens blood being spilled for a cult ritual, don't you think?

As a Muslim who wouldn't obviously stoop to such medieval practices, are you not abhorred and revolted by this ritual? Shouldn't you be lobbying for reform?

They consider it as "normal" as Africans do their rites of passage.

Yes, just as you consider your religious beliefs normal, there is little difference.

All religious scholars have passed fatwas denouncing it [Islam is anti-mutilation] but they don't care.

Really? Have they thought about the possibility of rioting in the streets, burning effigies and holding up signs reading, "Mutilation is Western Terrorism" while chanting, "Death to Western Mutilators?"

They seem to jump at that opportunity when they see a caricature in a newspaper, why not the same response to the mutilation of children within their own community?

 

[S.A.M.]

That would be about 150 million people. That's a lot of childrens blood being spilled for a cult ritual, don't you think?

As a Muslim who wouldn't obviously stoop to such medieval practices, are you not abhorred and revolted by this ritual? Shouldn't you be lobbying for reform?

Sure. I also want to lobby for reform against bicycles, boxing and karate classes for children. However, since the country has freedom of religion and poverty, people are allowed to roam naked, cut themselves, circumcise their children, tattoo them and do all kinds of strange things.

Really? Have they thought about the possibility of rioting in the streets, burning effigies and holding up signs reading, "Mutilation is Western Terrorism" while chanting, "Death to Western Mutilators?"

They seem to jump at that opportunity when they see a caricature in a newspaper, why not the same response to the mutilation of children within their own community?

Same reason why you are not rioting for the natives or standing outside Gitmo I suppose. People get used to anything. They even believe that this makes their children stronger and less fearful of injury or pain. Young men see it as a challenge and hold competitions in the amount of injury they can do themselves. Children watch them and want to be just like uncle when they grow up. Onlookers have to pry the swords and whips from the hands of these men by force. It makes as much sense to me as boxing.

 

[quadraphonics]

Same reason why you are not rioting for the natives or standing outside Gitmo I suppose.

Not sure what Q's nationality is, but it bears mentioning that Americans are prevented by the Cuban government and armed forces from "standing outside Gitmo." With a few minor exceptions, of course.

The rest of us have to content ourselves with voting for a President that has pledged to close down Gitmo.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not sure what Q's nationality is, but it bears mentioning that Americans are prevented by the Cuban government and armed forces from "standing outside Gitmo." With a few minor exceptions, of course.

The rest of us have to content ourselves with voting for a President that has pledged to close down Gitmo.

Indeed. And a volunteer army that obeys him. What would happen if a boatload of Americans went to Guantanamo on a human rights campaign? Like the ones that go to Gaza?

 

[(Q)]

Sure. I also want to lobby for reform against bicycles, boxing and karate classes for children.

Then, why don't you?

However, since the country has freedom of religion and poverty, people are allowed to roam naked, cut themselves, circumcise their children, tattoo them and do all kinds of strange things.

And, all the while, you'll just throw up your hands and do nothing else but loathe and curse the West.

Same reason why you are not rioting for the natives or standing outside Gitmo I suppose.

But, not the same reason for caricatures in the newspapers that cause rampant violence?

People get used to anything.

Unless, of course, they ignore their own backyards in favor of obsessing about other things, like loathing and cursing the West.

They even believe that this makes their children stronger and less fearful of injury or pain.

Beliefs are amazing, aren't they, Sam? They make you do violent acts, evidently, and provide the justification for doing so.

Young men see it as a challenge and hold competitions in the amount of injury they can do themselves. It makes as much sense to me as boxing.

No, boxing is where two grown adults consent to beating each other to a pulp, so don't try to change the subject.

Mutilation of children for religious rituals is something completely different as the child has no choice but to spill his blood.

I'm sure if you put the same amount of energy into lobbying for change of this medieval practice as you do spitting venom at the US, we'll see an end to child mutilation for religious rituals before next summer.

 

[quadraphonics]

What would happen if a boatload of Americans went to Guantanamo on a human rights campaign?

It would depend on where they tried to land, and whether they'd gotten the prior approval of the Cuban government.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm sure if you put the same amount of energy into lobbying for change of this medieval practice as you do spitting venom at the US, we'll see an end to child mutilation for religious rituals before next summer.

I doubt it. I do know that educated Shias don't do it but testosterone is a different matter altogether. Every man wants his boy to be "manly" and if his imam cannot influence him [and Shias are much more obedient to their imams than Sunnis are], then you can be sure some random Bombayite will not. But rest assured that its an issue clerics are focused on and if you ever get time away from Spencers site and learn some other languages, you will read about them.

Perhaps you should let the clerics know you are interested and like those women in the processions they will generously provide the information in a language you can understand.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Suddenly S.A.M. accepts that humans can't get over their instinct. Interesting.

 

[S.A.M.]

Suddenly S.A.M. accepts that humans can't get over their instinct. Interesting.

No I don't, I live in India and people marking their childrens foreheads is waaaay down on the list of things they do here. Tolerance can also have its dark side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWhxGHqWrpM

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Every man wants his boy to be "manly"

Ever wondered why? Think it's just a cultural thing, or maybe, perhaps did it ever occur to you that it's based on natural instinct? The manlier, the stronger, the fitter, the better.

 

[(Q)]

But rest assured that its an issue clerics are focused on ...

LoL. Sure they are.

Perhaps you should let the clerics know you are interested and like those women in the processions they will generously provide the information in a language you can understand.

I'm more interested in getting to the heart of the problem, Sam; the cults themselves, that which provides the fuel, the drivers and the justification.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ever wondered why? Think it's just a cultural thing, or maybe, perhaps did it ever occur to you that it's based on natural instinct? The manlier, the stronger, the fitter, the better.

I think its because the Shias have always been a minority and even in countries where they were a majority, they have been ruled by minority Sunnis. People without power tend to have more self destructive rituals. The Ashura ritual itself is a mourning of the death of Husain and Hassan and is a demonstration of powerlessness.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

I'm not talking about the ritual itself. I'm talking about the motive behind it. Like you pointed out: Every man wants his boy to be "manly".

 

[(Q)]

People without power tend to have more self destructive rituals.

That would make the US the least self-destructive ritualistic country in the world.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'm not talking about the ritual itself. I'm talking about the motive behind it. Like you pointed out: Every man wants his boy to be "manly".

Except the educated ones? Well thats not surprising is it?

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Except the educated ones? Well thats not surprising is it?

No, even the educated ones want to have manly sons. See...the criteria for being manly change depending on culture, and society, or more like they shifted - it's being achieved through different means.

 

[S.A.M.]

No, even the educated ones want to have manly sons. See...the criteria for being manly change depending on culture, and society, or more like they shifted - it's being achieved through different means.

Yeah but its only in the ghettos that it means guns, tattoos and gangs. Not everyone needs his son to feel the pain of ritual passage to be a man, otherwise you might still be hanging from trees by wooden slivers pierced under your muscles.

Or do you look like this?

 

[(Q)]

Not everyone needs his son to feel the pain of ritual passage to be a man...

But, at least 150 million Muslims need their children to feel the pain of ritual passage.

Not men who box, not men who put tattoos all over their bodies, but small, infant, Muslim children, Sam.

Allah must approve if 150 million Muslims are doing it, Sam.

 

[S.A.M.]

But, at least 150 million Muslims need their children to feel the pain of ritual passage.

Not men who box, not men who put tattoos all over their bodies, but small, infant, Muslim children, Sam.

Allah must approve if 150 million Muslims are doing it, Sam.

They can answer to Allah like the rest of us then.