Me and Mohammad share a common similarity (click here to see what!)

[Michael]

We're both atheists.


The given in this thread is the: Mohammad was sane hypothesis.


So, given sanity, it makes very good sense. If Mohammad were sane then he didn't hear voices in his head. He made that up. He made it up because he no longer feared the consequences of making it up. If he truly believed in the One God, and was not insane, then he wouldn't have pretended to say God told me this or that - because he'd have worried about the repercussions. He didn't and the reason is because he no longer believed in such things as Gods anymore. He therefor had no worry about pretending to "Do God's Will" nor about destroying some other God;s temples in Mecca.

Mohammad didn't believe in the One God AND he didn't believe in the many Gods either.

Mohammad was atheist.

What Mohammad did do was use people's beliefs and superstitions to manipulate them into doing what he wanted them to do.
It's kind of funny when you stop and think about it. DH and SAM spend quite a bit of their time here poo-pooing atheists and all the while they are worshiping one.

Irony's a Bitch isn't She?

Michael

 

[scifes]

We're both atheists.


The given in this thread is the: Mohammad was sane hypothesis.


So, given sanity, it makes very good sense. If Mohammad were sane then he didn't hear voices in his head. He made that up. He made it up because he no longer feared the consequences of making it up. If he truly believed in the One God, and was not insane, then he wouldn't have pretended to say God told me this or that - because he'd have worried about the repercussions. He didn't and the reason is because he no longer believed in such things as Gods anymore. He therefor had no worry about pretending to "Do God's Will" nor about destroying some other God;s temples in Mecca.

Mohammad didn't believe in the One God AND he didn't believe in the many Gods either.

Mohammad was atheist.

What Mohammad did do was use people's beliefs and superstitions to manipulate them into doing what he wanted them to do.
It's kind of funny when you stop and think about it. DH and SAM spend quite a bit of their time here poo-pooing atheists and all the while they are worshiping one.

Irony's a Bitch isn't She?

Michael

:bravo:
truly spectacular..yes i considered that at some point too..simply as "was mohammad pbuh lying?"


but you neglected two points:

1-it is an implicit given in your hypothesis that Mohammad actually did not hear the voices... and you can't be sure of that.

2- you've neglected his "miracles" which are more amazing than a whispering in the ear...did you research those?

 

[Xylene]

So we have a choice; either Mohammud really did hear voices in his head, which just meant he was schizophrenic. Or the alternative, as the thread states, he was an atheist, who was making it all up--and as an earlier thread pointed out, possibly copying material from Aramaic Christian texts--which would make him not only an atheist but a heretic as well, if not an actual lunatic...

 

[scifes]

So we have a choice; either Mohammud really did hear voices in his head, which just meant he was schizophrenic.

no..you're assuming that again.

Or the alternative, as the thread states, he was an atheist, who was making it all up--and as an earlier thread pointed out, possibly copying material from Aramaic Christian texts--which would make him not only an atheist but a heretic as well, if not an actual lunatic...

again, what do you know of his "it all"?

the point of "it all" is to prove he isn't lying..proving otherwise would be....outstanding(?)..

he has proof of telling the truth, if you crush his evidence you've revealed a world wide consparicy and solved it, saving a billion and a half humans for a big fat lie..you up to it? because all who tried hav failed, many even became muslims, you want to risk that?

 

[spidergoat]

Huh, interesting thesis. In the end, I guess it doesn't matter if your prophet is a con-man, just look at Mormonism.

 

[scifes]

Huh, interesting thesis. In the end, I guess it doesn't matter if your prophet is a con-man, just look at Mormonism.

i'm interesting? why thank you..

what do you mean by con-man?

and would you save me the headache of researching for Mormonism? i've seen it mentioned here a couple of times but have no clue of what it means..

 

[spidergoat]

Oh, well John Smith founded Mormonism in recent American history. He was a convicted con-man, and he invented the mythology on which Mormonism is based. He claimed to have found solid gold tablets writting in a strange language that only he could translate with special stones, which he wouldn't let anyone see. The fact that this is such an obvious lie doesn't take away from the fact that many Mormons believe it and are otherwise fine people.

I think it's entirely possible that Mohammed didn't believe what he said, or if he believed in God, he may not have had 100% faith in his own status as prophet.

 

[superstring01]

I think it's entirely possible that Mohammed didn't believe what he said, or if he believed in God, he may not have had 100% faith in his own status as prophet.

I think it goes deeper than that.

What starts off as a con, usually ends up sucking the creator in. Often times it doesn't start as a con. Sometimes it starts with noble intentions, but when the creator of the religion discovers the power it gives, they usually become megalomaniacally drunk on that power. People follow blindly and... well, you know what happens next.

I think that, if not at the beginning then shortly thereafter, both Smith and Muhammad believed what they were saying. Probably the same was true for Christ.

~String

 

[scifes]

so what is a con(man)?

it definitly isn't the opposite of pro..

 

[Oli]

In this case: con is short for "confidence trick/ trickster".

 

[scifes]

but that just shows how very little you people know of mohammad's history, not even in the last of his days, nor after reaching the peak of his conquers, have he claimed everything for himself..actually he went through hell on earth for his new religion..him and his followers, just read history..and when they DID conquer and get money and status was at hand, he didn't take any of it, indeed, for the 20th century observer, he was living the dummest and least enjoyable life..historians and biography writers always put him with the greatest men on earth..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100

no way can you be certain of a man intentions..but the most reliable method based on the most trustworthy facts are the man's actions,
how much do you know of that?

 

[spidergoat]

Don't tell me he didn't take the status as a prophet, he used the fame and trust to command troops.

 

[Gustav]

but that just shows how very little you people know...

ummm
dumbo
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[Xylene]

Oh, well John Smith founded Mormonism in recent American history. He was a convicted con-man, and he invented the mythology on which Mormonism is based. He claimed to have found solid gold tablets writting in a strange language that only he could translate with special stones, which he wouldn't let anyone see. The fact that this is such an obvious lie doesn't take away from the fact that many Mormons believe it and are otherwise fine people.

I think it's entirely possible that Mohammed didn't believe what he said, or if he believed in God, he may not have had 100% faith in his own status as prophet.

Interesting business, those gold plates disappearing...I've asked various pairs of Mormon missionaries about it, and none of them can come up with any explanation that I can believe. If you wanted to make people believe in the religion you founded, wouldn't you do your absolute damndest to hold on to what is literally the only solid evidence of what may have been a divine presence or intervention in the life of Joseph Smith? So the loss of the plates is either the biggest tragedy in the history of religion, or their non-existence is the biggest con-job thereof.

 

[spidergoat]

I didn't realize they were lost. I've only recently become aware of the full extent of Mormon theology from a disappointed ex-Mormon. It seems it's actually a Polytheistic religion, where if you are good enough and work hard enough, you get to become a God of your own Earth.

 

[superstring01]

I didn't realize they were lost. I've only recently become aware of the full extent of Mormon theology from a disappointed ex-Mormon. It seems it's actually a Polytheistic religion, where if you are good enough and work hard enough, you get to become a God of your own Earth.

True.

There's also a Holy Mother (as in, wife of God).

There are numerous levels of heaven and hell. The "hell" for us non-believers is an unbelievable paradise, but we will be aware of what we missed out on, so will live in eternal sorrow.

The "torture" hell is for the really evil who chose to do really evil things, but even that isn't guaranteed, since salvation can come at any time. Presumable, after a moment of torment, even Hitler and Torquemada will say, "Um... okay, my bad, I BELIEVE... can I come out now?"

It's all a bunch of hysterical crap. And, sadly, it's growing. One of the fastest spreading religions on earth.

~String

 

[Michael]

but that just shows how very little you people know of mohammad's history,

Actually scifes, I find most Muslims don't fess up to just how little they do know about Mohammad.

Take the Qur'an for example. Similar to these golden plates there are a lot of unknowns that one would think someone would know.

Like the name or names of the people who wrote it?
Like what day it was finished? (no one even knows the year it was finished).

It entirely possible it was all made up.

Did you know that the only contemporary evidence of even what may be the existence of Mohammad is a Greek historian complaining about a militant Christian heretic warmongering in the name of God? That's it.

As for the "miracles"? Like splitting the moon into two peaces? Or I know I know - knowing that honey is healthy! Or I know: How about the deep understanding of how mountains are formed with "roots"? Or talking to ants? Or taking a magical ride on a fairy creature up to Heaven and taking a look around? Or how about the complex knowledge of human embryonic development. come on! don't tell me those are the "miracles" you are referring to!?!? Gee, as Greek postulated the atom I suppose polytheism hold the key to understanding the building-blocks of the universe, all of physics, hell reality itself! All hail Athena Warrior Goddess!

Yeah, the Mormons will save you a seat at the table mate next to the Scientologists



I think if we seriously think about it, then assuming Mohammad was sane AND assuming he even existed, then there is no doubt he was an atheist. Or at least started out that way.

MII


(note: do you suppose that because over 1 billion Chinese pray to General Mao - that he hears their prayers in heaven? No, you do not? Yet, see how quickly you are to use just such a flimsy argument to try and "logically" justify your own beliefs. meh.. .. anyway)

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

:bravo:1-it is an implicit given in your hypothesis that Mohammad actually did not hear the voices... and you can't be sure of that.

And you can't be sure he did. All of a sudden good ol' Islam has become every other religion. There is nothing special about it. There must be belief in the prophets and the scribes before one can believe in God. In this case you must also believe a sane man heard the voice of God.

If you had met Mohammed 1 minute after he said God spoke to him would you have believed him? Would you have believed him after he wrote it in a book? Would you have believed him if someone told you what transpired was the truth? Would you have believed him if someone else believed him? Why the hell do you believe him?

 

[scifes]

Don't tell me he didn't take the status as a prophet, he used the fame and trust to command troops.

and after commanding troops, what did he do? what did he gain? what could've he gained? was he different from all other millitary leaders i some way?

what do you know of the "status of a prophet"?

ummm
dumbo
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why gustav, nice of you to join us..: D

/spits

Actually scifes, I find most Muslims don't fess up to just how little they do know about Mohammad.

which "most muslims"?
little they know compared to who?

Take the Qur'an for example. Similar to these golden plates there are a lot of unknowns that one would think someone would know.

Like the name or names of the people who wrote it?

known.

Like what day it was finished? (no one even knows the year it was finished).

and the hour? and minute? GMT? shoe size of mohammad?

lol, actually, i think it is known, the day the last verse was revealed..

micheal, you seriously need to zoom out, and focus.

It entirely possible it was all made up.

for you and many other people, yes.

for me, and objectively, no.

as sarkus said, we only believe something when any other explanation is more amazing than our initial understanding and belief.

Did you know that the only contemporary evidence of even what may be the existence of Mohammad is a Greek historian complaining about a militant Christian heretic warmongering in the name of God? That's it.

no i didn't know that, i never even heard of him..but you can never have too much evidence..

As for the "miracles"? Like splitting the moon into two peaces?

yup, those who saw it were besides themselves with rage..unlike you(i hope) they knew it was truth but didn't want to believe..and nothing is as humiliating and cornering to have a miracle forced upon you..they went outside mecca to the country sides to see if mohammad was putting magic on them for seeing it..and no, the others were like,"no, we can see it too":shrug:

Or I know I know - knowing that honey is healthy!

would you know that if you were an illiterate nomad in the middle of nowhere?definitly nowhere to be waking and sleeping on the buzz of bees..

but hey no problem, you don't like that "miracle" as you named it, there are others you can't deny..heh heh heh..and if you do deny that, there are more others, more than you can have a knowledge of to just understand..

Or I know: How about the deep understanding of how mountains are formed with "roots"?

oh man, again.. how didn't we listen to those who kept telling everyone who would listen they've seen mohammad sneaking about with a shovel around mountains?

Or talking to ants?

and fiction kicks in!!

Or taking a magical ride on a fairy creature up to Heaven and taking a look around?

loool..
the IRONY!!
they were jumping around happily when mohammad said that, he came in the night if my memory is right..they didn't even wait to morning, they went around waking the believers saying, "you see you see, this prophit of yours is saying he went to palestine and back in one night, and it takes us months to just get there:crazy:..see see, we TOLD YOU SO"

and so, with happiness oozing out their ears, they brought mohammed and had him tell his story..waiting for him to change what he said or retreat his claim..when he said the same thing again they were like,"how thick is this guy?"..looking at his followers, some were shook, some still nodded their heads..and some just stood silent..so they were like.."and you want us to believe you?"..
and so it was time to go back to logic and entropy..
time for proof..mohammad have never been to palestine..

"how does this and this look like?"
"what was the color of this and that"
-"good answers"

well he sat with a guy who went to palestine and got the info..

more detailed questions..
"describe this and that"
"how did this and that look like"?

answers, not any answers..but answers that qualify as proof..

grump your face..
mutter "magician"
and go back to sleep..

Or how about the complex knowledge of human embryonic development.

some even sowre mohammed hid a microscope under his pillow..-but he had someone to read him the manual-

i needed to wiki embryo btw, and am not still sure what it is..

come on! don't tell me those are the "miracles" you are referring to!?!?

actually, mostly no, some yes..

Gee, as Greek postulated the atom I suppose polytheism hold the key to understanding the building-blocks of the universe, all of physics, hell reality itself! All hail Athena Warrior Goddess!

1- so what do you think of the greek philosophers?
liars? pedos? con-men?
or didn't exist?

2-how many greek guy showed the other wrong? how many stages did they go through, to,lol, reach an unproven "fact"?

how many people proved mohammad wrong?

how many have tried?

yet, how many disrespected him?

I think if we seriously think about it, then assuming Mohammad was sane AND assuming he even existed, then there is no doubt he was an atheist. Or at least started out that way.

i think not..
there's some mistake in the boldies..

(note: do you suppose that because over 1 billion Chinese pray to General Mao - that he hears their prayers in heaven? No, you do not? Yet, see how quickly you are to use just such a flimsy argument to try and "logically" justify your own beliefs. meh.. .. anyway)

great, so tell me with your very accurate example..

what is common in all those chinese, other than them being chinese?

does that applies similarly to the over one billion people all over the world who are muslims?

And you can't be sure he did. All of a sudden good ol' Islam has become every other religion. There is nothing special about it. There must be belief in the prophets and the scribes before one can believe in God. In this case you must also believe a sane man heard the voice of God.

exactly(?) so there is no point postulating it from that perspective, did he hear or not will answer itself after examining what is based upon it(whether he heard god or had a loose wire)

If you had met Mohammed 1 minute after he said God spoke to him would you have believed him?

i'm not stupid to jump "that's cool, i'm in" actually i might for the heck of it
but hey, i have a brain and sense, i can work logic, and so did the people then..but if i can believe him upon evidence that lived through the mutilation of 1400 years, i'm sure making a dicision then would be easier..

this is because i don't give a damn about ego or false pride..if something's right it's right' if i'm wrong i'm wrong..

that's why people hen didn't believe..and some who did went through wars before accepting it..

Would you have believed him after he wrote it in a book?

the book is unneccesary then..there were miricles aired live, i'd be living there examining it with my hands, seeing him recive the versus he claims from god, and hear them from his mouth..

Would you have believed him if someone else believed him?

i used to..

Why the hell do you believe him?

because otherwise..the world would be crazy

 

[swarm]

1-it is an implicit given in your hypothesis that Mohammad actually did not hear the voices... and you can't be sure of that.

Schizophrenics are usually successful in life, just look at the real "prophets." Psychopaths however do quite well as warlords if their psychopathy isn't debilitating.

2- you've neglected his "miracles" which are more amazing than a whispering in the ear...did you research those?

After the fact miracles are a dime a dozen and only impress gullible idiots.