Matthew 24:22

[Lori_7]

Because there will be followers of Jesus still alive in their carnal sin flesh at the time of His second coming. Because they are true believers they need to be transformed into their Good eternal state to join with the resurected saints who are resurected at the same time.

So Dead saints will be resurected in their eternal good bodies And living saints (probably only a handfull by this time) will be transformed into the same eternal bodies in a twinkling of an eye.

Now most denominations that believe in rapture teach what is called a pre-tribulation rapture. They say that before the Anti-christ comes to power and starts the great persecution God will rapture Christians and they will be in heaven for the 7 years of the great tribulation. This is not supported by scripture, it is an escapist doctrine, it's popularity is understandable because most people don't want to suffer persecution or end up being beheaded for believing Jesus. But scripture is clear that the rapture happens at the final trumpet spoken of in Revelation the 7th trumpet.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

you know what's twisting my mind really? it's sin and bodies.

if the 144,000 are sinners, the elect aren't going to have to worry about what's outside the walls, but inside the walls. and worry? really? in the kingdom?! no!
:bawl:

and this notion of a "magical" transformation of a human body. it just doesn't happen. that is not the way things change...magically.

i watched a movie not too long ago called "what the bleep do we know" that made me believe that sin could be bred out of the human race, but that would take time and a concerted effort, and a huge change in thinking.

take the martyrs...they're dead. and somehow they have to get back into a physical body on this earth. i refuse to believe that they're all just going to poof out of thin air.

you know what i mean?

 

[spidergoat]

Well, Jesus didn't write Revelations, so it's pretty much bullshit.

 

[Lori_7]

Well, Jesus didn't write Revelations, so it's pretty much bullshit.

if jesus had written it, wouldn't you still think it was bullshit?

 

[spidergoat]

I think it's self evident that it's not something Jesus would have said. It's not his style.

 

[Lori_7]

I think it's self evident that it's not something Jesus would have said. It's not his style.

the whole point of jesus is to eliminate sin. i'm extremely interested in how that will be accomplished, practically, logistically.

if you look at the world today and how far off the mark we are, think about what it would take to correct it. really. you'll probably come up with something logical like what's depicted in revelation. you know, religious people aren't the only ones today who are worried about a correction.

 

[Lori_7]

and spider, let's not forget who jesus' daddy is. jesus is a revolutionary right, but he relies on his father to give him something to work with and so far, that has not been pretty.

 

[spidergoat]

Sin is only in your mind. Change yourself, and the sin of the world disappears.

 

[Lori_7]

Sin is only in your mind. Change yourself, and the sin of the world disappears.

are you talking about quantum physics or settling for this crap?

 

[spidergoat]

You aren't going to change the world, no one will. But your point of view can change.

 

[Lori_7]

You aren't going to change the world, no one will. But your point of view can change.

so you're talking about settling for this crap. no. i am going to change the world.

 

[spidergoat]

The peace you seek is already inside you, that's the good news.

 

[Lori_7]

you're right. it comes from knowledge, empowerment, and resolve, not from my perspective of the world around me. then again there is a sense of peace in watching it all go down the drain.

 

[nietzschefan]

you're right. it comes from knowledge, empowerment, and resolve, not from my perspective of the world around me. then again there is a sense of peace in watching it all go down the drain.

THat's not what Adstar is telling you. He's saying the world goes partially to shit and then him and his buddy Jesus are going to lord over everyone like fuckin hitler.

If there IS a breakdown in society, i'm killin every fuckin jesus freak I see, just in case it's him...

 

[Lori_7]

THat's not what Adstar is telling you. He's saying the world goes partially to shit and then him and his buddy Jesus are going to lord over everyone like fuckin hitler.

If there IS a breakdown in society, i'm killin every fuckin jesus freak I see, just in case it's him...

because the thought of a sinless existence is so horrible? really? it's the definition of freedom?!

 

[nietzschefan]

I'm not going to get into your dogma, it's all relative.

Even with the Judeo-christian belief, it's a ridiculous future AdStar subscribes to. THere is no point to any "Saved" "chosen" "ever lastinglifegiven" to stick around on earth. It's a shithole right? The bible told us so. Despite the quality and respect for life on this planet going up about a 1000fold since those books were written or even orally tradition-ed.

No, they go to Heaven, this is the one fuckin gift the fucking christians gave both faithful and unbeliever. The faithful get to live happily ever after for eternity with all the other arrogant fucking backstabbers, gossip mongers and business talkers at church and US SLOBS STUCK ON EARTH GET TO BE LEFT ALONE TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF REALITY.

Adstar here wants to take that away, we STILL have to deal with his rhetoric after the 2nd fucking cumming? COMON. Give me the lake of fire. Fuck!! Religious people make me intensely violent.

 

[Adstar]

you know what's twisting my mind really? it's sin and bodies.

if the 144,000 are sinners, the elect aren't going to have to worry about what's outside the walls, but inside the walls. and worry? really? in the kingdom?! no!
:bawl:

No sinner will be able to touch us during the 1000 years. We will never die again. Neither during the rebellion that happens at the end of the 1000 years. For God will destroy that army by fire.

and this notion of a "magical" transformation of a human body. it just doesn't happen. that is not the way things change...magically.

i watched a movie not too long ago called "what the bleep do we know" that made me believe that sin could be bred out of the human race, but that would take time and a concerted effort, and a huge change in thinking.

take the martyrs...they're dead. and somehow they have to get back into a physical body on this earth. i refuse to believe that they're all just going to poof out of thin air.

you know what i mean?

You don't have faith in the Power of God. You do not see God as being God, Your god is limited in power. A God who created all existence cannot do something as simple as create perfect bodies for the saints who have believed Him in their lives??? How limited is your god? Who is your god?

Ezekiel 37
1 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”
So I answered, “O Lord GOD, You know.”
4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.”’”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

THat's not what Adstar is telling you. He's saying the world goes partially to shit and then him and his buddy Jesus are going to lord over everyone like fuckin hitler.

If there IS a breakdown in society, i'm killin every fuckin jesus freak I see, just in case it's him...

Of coerce you probably will. But i doubt you will be an athiest then. See the anti Christ will come with lying signs and wonders and those like you who have rejected the Love of the truth will follow Him and believe he is God on earth. You may indeed kill me probably by beheading, But remember the wrath of the true God of Abraham is far greater than anything you can do to His followers.

Woe to those who kill true Christians, we are the most dangerous people on earth because we turn the cheek and give over all judgement and revenge to God. A most terrifying people to behold ever on earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I'm not going to get into your dogma, it's all relative.

Even with the Judeo-christian belief, it's a ridiculous future AdStar subscribes to. THere is no point to any "Saved" "chosen" "ever lastinglifegiven" to stick around on earth. It's a shithole right? The bible told us so. Despite the quality and respect for life on this planet going up about a 1000fold since those books were written or even orally tradition-ed.

No, they go to Heaven, this is the one fuckin gift the fucking christians gave both faithful and unbeliever. The faithful get to live happily ever after for eternity with all the other arrogant fucking backstabbers, gossip mongers and business talkers at church and US SLOBS STUCK ON EARTH GET TO BE LEFT ALONE TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF REALITY.

Adstar here wants to take that away, we STILL have to deal with his rhetoric after the 2nd fucking cumming? COMON. Give me the lake of fire. Fuck!! Religious people make me intensely violent.

You choose hate and violence.

Heaven is coming to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem, We will be here on earth forever not in heaven. Eternal Life is just that living but in perfected bodies.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Chipz]

i think he's being helpful. i'm asking for opinions and he's giving me his own.

chipz, what reality are you referring to? historical...modern day? what is your own understanding of the scripture in zechariah?

I'll say this...there's a subtle nuance that is entirely missed in its English translation. In the original text of the first chapter of Zechariah it says "a'sof a'sayf kol m'al p'ney h'adamha" Which translates more clearly "I will engulf all of the things which are visible on the land". Opposed to the Christian translation which says "Consume all of the things on the Earth". Which would be "a'sof a'sayf kol m'al p'ney h'eretz". Specifically the differences is within reference to locality...and additionally "eretz" refers to things which contain both corporeal and ethereal elements. That is to say...it reference spiritual things. When referring to "adamha" it is only referencing the physical buildings, the physical people etc.

Typically Hebraic texts referring to an event refer from the broad to the narrow. The narrow is reached in verse 4 when it refers to just those of Judah and the remnants still living in Jerusalem. During this period - Jerusalem had fell to the Persians. However there were three groups of people. Those completely lost and scattered...the Judaeans who were exiled to Persia (Shushon?) and the remnants who still lived in Jerusalem. Zechariah wrote of the re-consolidation of Israel; where the exiled to Persia would return to the remnants still living in Jerusalem...so that the temple could be rebuilt. It was also hoped that the third class of people who were scattered would return- this in fact was not as common.

During the period of exile - the land had fallen under idolatrous worship by foreigners with the few true native Judaeans of Jerusalem who managed to continue much of the festivals and practices.

The book is essentially discussing the reunification of Israel and the destruction of the idols which had been built in the land. Its reference is..."They will be destroyed from the land", which is the relevant verse previously discussed.

It has no direct apocalyptic message. Primarily because the thought of an apocalypse didn't become invented until at least 700 (more than likely - 1000) years later by Christians.

Therefore it's both theologically inaccurate, and scholastically ignorant to ascribe meanings to a poor translation. It's equally poor form to base further conclusions on mistranslations. These are the egregious errors Adstar has made as he practically invents his own interpretation. Religious texts have facts - we cannot ignore them unless we're heretical.

 

[Lori_7]

I'm not going to get into your dogma, it's all relative.

Even with the Judeo-christian belief, it's a ridiculous future AdStar subscribes to. THere is no point to any "Saved" "chosen" "ever lastinglifegiven" to stick around on earth. It's a shithole right? The bible told us so. Despite the quality and respect for life on this planet going up about a 1000fold since those books were written or even orally tradition-ed.

No, they go to Heaven, this is the one fuckin gift the fucking christians gave both faithful and unbeliever. The faithful get to live happily ever after for eternity with all the other arrogant fucking backstabbers, gossip mongers and business talkers at church and US SLOBS STUCK ON EARTH GET TO BE LEFT ALONE TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF REALITY.

Adstar here wants to take that away, we STILL have to deal with his rhetoric after the 2nd fucking cumming? COMON. Give me the lake of fire. Fuck!! Religious people make me intensely violent.

i see, and i understand your anger in response to religious hypocrisy. i deal with that myself.

i'm sure you realize though, that this behavior is hypocritical because it does not represent the faith. right?

backstabbers, gossip mongers, and business talkers can keep on going to church, but they will never be the church. they just won't fit in.

"US SLOBS STUCK ON EARTH GET TO BE LEFT ALONE TO MAKE THE BEST OUT OF REALITY" is really what this thread is about. i have a hard time understanding the great magical escape that is often promoted by religious people. i think it's going to take something a lot more practical to turn this place around, like hard working and dedicated people who are willing to do what it takes. to love people, and to want to do the right thing in response to that love all the time without exception.