Man Beheads Wife in 'Honor' Killing

[GeoffP]

Yeah, liek putting natives on reservations, replacing populations with those who are "better", creating the Third world, undermining developing countries to keep them poor and exploit their resources, using resources without restraint, creating bigger and more destructive weapons, having a war every year with those who are unable to defend themselves, testing their weapons on the defenceless, killing people indiscriminately and acting like you're doing them a favor, increasing hunger and social disparity, building an unsustainable environment and lifestyle. Etc.

....sorry, are we talking about Iran again? :shrug: I just jumped back into the thread.

 

[GeoffP]

The really absurd thing is that the same kind of tribalism is rife throughout the Middle East - but gets quietly pushed under the rug in the general discourse.

 

[Bells]

Then why did this fellow - an American citizen, as you intimate - cut off his wife's head. (And, more perversely, why are spin doctors in the islamic community trying to turn her into a martyr for the religion?)

Probably the same underlying reason the "Jesus Freak" decapitated his son. He's a nut bag.

I think if any statistics were underestimated relative to the Pakistani ones, it wouldn't be the Western sample. Maybe Saudi Arabia.

Heh.

No.

Not really.

Even though we don't know how frequently domestic violence occurs (and some estimates suggest that it is as much as 10 times more prevalent than reported by the Bureau of Justice Statistics), the report does help with identifying very interesting trends. The rates of domestic violence vary along several lines, including race, gender, economic and educational status, and geographical location.

http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/domestic-violence/domestic-violence-statistics.html
​

Scary figure, isn't it?

No. But should such a dangerous meme go unchallenged?

Of course. But you can't do so and say that you are somehow better when in reality, you really aren't that much better.

 

[copernicus66]

Scary figure, isn't it?

Not really, given that the 'scary figure' is based on conjecture. 'Some estimates'? Hah!

Of course. But you can't do so and say that you are somehow better when in reality, you really aren't that much better.

Except we are better, especially in the realm of attitude towards domestic violence. Domestic violence is viewed as an abomination in the West, so much so that law enforcement will go right out of their way to arrest and punish *suspected* (male) abusers in the absence of any hard evidence. For crying out loud, a couple can fight, the cops show up, and arbitrarily arrest and charge the man for domestic abuse. The West is *that* zealous in enforcing domestic abuse laws. And don't even get me started on how society treats men who are accused of beating their spouses.

Hitting a woman is anathema in the West. That doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't occur, but then child molestation is also anathema and it occurs more frequently that we'd like.

The attitude of many Middle-Eastern society to women, especially the place of a woman in a relationship, sucks ass. And yes, evidence strongly suggests that the rates of domestic abuse are much higher in those societies.

 

[S.A.M.]

I've lived in both societies and I disagree

 

[copernicus66]

Sure. Just look at the last 1400 years of history.

The repeated massacres, invasions and human rights violations perpetrated by Muslims? The Arabic slave trade, which was only terminated with the West intervened? Persecution of religious minorities? Spreading of religious dogma via the sword? The destruction of entire civilizations? Yeah, the Muslims have a pretty lousy record. It's too bad that unlike the West, they haven't progressed from their less civilised state.

 

[(Q)]

Pick any one

1. the elected representative governments
2. the troops who willingly sign up, especially in unconscripted armies
3. the ones who demonise the victims
4. those who accept the "collateral damages" label and allow the shenanigans to continue
5. who watch on the sidelines, indifferent to the pain and trauma being inflicted on their behalf
6. who support any or all of the above as justified

Looks like it's just little ole' you against the rest of the free world. How fitting.

Funny how we don't see you actually doing anything about it other than wagging your finger here. It's probably just easier to repeat 'Gitmo' over and over again until everyone becomes numb.

 

[Bells]

Not really, given that the 'scary figure' is based on conjecture. 'Some estimates'? Hah!

Not really. There are a lot of women and men who suffer in silence and who never report their abuse.

Except we are better, especially in the realm of attitude towards domestic violence.

Attitude does not always work though. While the general public perception is one of abhorrence, that abhorrence does not always travel to the home front. For example, a police officer will arrest and jail a person who has abused their spouse and then go home and beat up his/her spouse or partner.

Domestic violence is viewed as an abomination in the West, so much so that law enforcement will go right out of their way to arrest and punish *suspected* (male) abusers in the absence of any hard evidence. For crying out loud, a couple can fight, the cops show up, and arbitrarily arrest and charge the man for domestic abuse. The West is *that* zealous in enforcing domestic abuse laws. And don't even get me started on how society treats men who are accused of beating their spouses.

Heh.

No.

In a lot of cases, the battered spouse will stick up for their abuser and refuse to press charges and the abuser comes home to repeat the cycle. I have seen it countless of times. If the West was that zealous about enforcing their domestic violence laws, the figures wouldn't be that high.

Men and women who abuse their spouses and their children deserve the animosity they get in society in my opinion.

Hitting a woman is anathema in the West. That doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't occur, but then child molestation is also anathema and it occurs more frequently that we'd like.

And hitting women also occurs more frequently than we'd like. Doesn't make us better than anyone else.

Before we start pointing fingers, we should quietly remind ourselves that it also occurs in our own society. Before we start saying we are somehow better and demand action in Muslim societies with such high figures, we should also be pointing the finger at our own society and demanding that we be better.

The attitude of many Middle-Eastern society to women, especially the place of a woman in a relationship, sucks ass. And yes, evidence strongly suggests that the rates of domestic abuse are much higher in those societies.

I don't think anyone is actively denying that. Yes, their rates are horrendous. But our rates are not in such a good position that would place us in a position to lecture others about their rates. In other words, we shouldn't throw stones when we live in glass houses.

We are using their domestic abuse rates as a form of weapon and it is highly hypocritical in a way, because ours isn't that great either. When we hear reports of a Muslim man beating and/or killing his wife, we automatically assume it is because of his religious background. What of men in the West who do the same to their wives? Is it their religious background? When it happens in the West, we rush for excuses about the man's mental instability, his socio-economic situation that increased his stress levels, etc. But we don't afford the same courtesy to men who commit such crimes who happen to be Muslim. We rush to find excuses for our own while laying the blame solely at "Islam" when a Muslim man does the very same crime.

 

[S.A.M.]

Copernicus needs to volunteer some time in a domestic violence shelter. They appreciate any time you can spare. Try it. It will expand your perspective of what really goes on.

 

[leopold]

For crying out loud, a couple can fight, the cops show up, and arbitrarily arrest and charge the man for domestic abuse. The West is *that* zealous in enforcing domestic abuse laws.

and it doesn't stop there.
if you are convicted of domestic violence you can, and most likely will, be denied all sorts of federal help in terms of housing loans and schooling tuitions.

 

[iceaura]

Muslim women aren't allowed to portray themselves, according to this view, as they don't know what is best for them.

Cameras are there for the money, scripts are easily written, Muslim women are surely able to portray themselves - they don't want to, for some reason?

You may not notice, but we see right through you. We aren't unaware of your motives.

Then why do you keep trying to run such ridiculous, unpersuasive, error and absurdity filled propaganda rants? Are you trying to convince us that you Muslims are all dangerous and violent goofballs with heads full of bigoted nonsense? How many times have you tried to persuade people on this forum that Islam doesn't do this or that, that Muslims act thus and so, by quoting the Quran at us?

I see a distinct shift in the way Indians are moving and its all forward. Even though surprisingly, we are also getting married less and having less children

Why is that surprising?

When 70% of your population is over 70 in parts of your country and the young dont reproduce, you'll be replaced by other people. Like the 50% Indians under 30.

The coming demographic disaster in India is going to be a threat to us all, true.

Pakistanis are more "occupied" with dying by bombs, presently.

That never stopped them from abusing women in the past.

I've lived in both societies and I disagree

Your judgment is suspect. You don't even recognize the burka as abuse.

We are using their domestic abuse rates as a form of weapon and it is highly hypocritical in a way, because ours isn't that great either.

Ours doesn't have the same severity of consequences overall. Women are abused, but women are also capable of action of various kinds. They aren't as trapped, in general.

When we hear reports of a Muslim man beating and/or killing his wife, we automatically assume it is because of his religious background. What of men in the West who do the same to their wives? Is it their religious background?

I have run into several analyses of religious patterns in domestic abuse in the US. They are underreported. Actually, I think simply beating a wife would not have Islamic connotations. Beheading her does, though, especially in a more or less "professional" Muslim.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Cameras are there for the money, scripts are easily written, Muslim women are surely able to portray themselves - they don't want to, for some reason?

That's part of the problem. You don't know how Muslim women portray themselves, so it is easy for Westerners to speak for them, ignoring their sentiments. There are many serials and movies coming from the Muslim world about the women's perspective on Muslim affairs and global politics.

The best way to ensure women's rights is first to make sure you aren't bombing them, their husbands, and their children,don't you agree?

Then why do you keep trying to run such ridiculous, unpersuasive, error and absurdity filled propaganda rants?

I'm merely informing you of the uselessness of killing innocent Muslims and expecting us to then embrace your lifestyle. We come from a culture in which resistance to occupation is one of our main cultural traits. We were the one's who fought off the crusaders, the mongols, the european colonists, and other invaders, don't forget this. Resistance to occupation is part of the Islamic religion, and Islam goes as far as to state that those who do not defend themselves and their brothers are not worthy of being called Muslims. There lies the problem for Westerners.

The power centers in the West, being differentiated from the Western populace (which is mainly ignorant), are fighting a war against Islamic civilization on all fronts: mental, physical, spiritual, economical, and social. Their goal is to pacify the Muslim masses through bloodshed and propaganda to make it easy for them to conquer the minds of the Muslims. This, however, will not happen, because the Muslim is not someone who is easily defeated. The Quran is what binds us, and God is who protects us.

God says in the Quran: "“They (unbelievers) want to extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths. But Allah will perfect His light, even though the unbelievers may detest it. It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, so that he may exalt it over all religions, much as the unbelievers may dislike it.” [61:8-9]

The unbelievers who are referred to here are those who not only reject the message, but strive with all their means to dissuade others from it and to oppress those who embrace the message.

Thus we see it is useless to fight it. Islam will prevail in the end, no matter what the enemies of Islam will do against it. No matter how many women and children they kill, no matter how many innocent people they starve to death, no matter how many innocent men and women they torture, no matter how much they make the people of the world hate Islam and its followers. Islam will prevail, that is the promise of God. Those who fight Islam, militarily, through propaganda, or otherwise, are being played into the hands of the Devil, and they should mend their ways unless they wish to spend eternity with him.

Allah swt guide us all to the straight path and make us among the righteous.

 

[S.A.M.]

Your judgment is suspect. You don't even recognize the burka as abuse.

Nope, I come from a culture where covering your body is not an expression of abuse anymore than exposing it is liberation

In fact where clothes have little to do with defining liberty

 

[(Q)]

That's part of the problem. You don't know how Muslim women portray themselves, so it is easy for Westerners to speak for them, ignoring their sentiments. There are many serials and movies coming from the Muslim world about the women's perspective on Muslim affairs and global politics.

The best way to ensure women's rights is first to make sure you aren't bombing them, their husbands, and their children,don't you agree?

It is Muslim men who control the rights of Muslim women, men like yourself who blame their problems on everyone else rather than looking in their own backyards.

I'm merely informing you of the uselessness of killing innocent Muslims and expecting us to then embrace your lifestyle. We come from a culture in which resistance to occupation is one of our main cultural traits.

Resistance to anything non-Islamic is the culture.

Resistance to occupation is part of the Islamic religion, and Islam goes as far as to state that those who do not defend themselves and their brothers are not worthy of being called Muslims. There lies the problem for Westerners.

That would more of a problem for Muslims who wish to detach themselves from the rest of world and then expect the rest of the world to kowtow to their demands of intolerance.

The power centers in the West, being differentiated from the Western populace (which is mainly ignorant), are fighting a war against Islamic civilization on all fronts: mental, physical, spiritual, economical, and social. Their goal is to pacify the Muslim masses through bloodshed and propaganda to make it easy for them to conquer the minds of the Muslims. This, however, will not happen, because the Muslim is not someone who is easily defeated. The Quran is what binds us, and God is who protects us.

That sounds very much like someone who is indoctrinated into a cult, spewing hatred and propaganda.

The unbelievers who are referred to here are those who not only reject the message, but strive with all their means to dissuade others from it and to oppress those who embrace the message.

Your interpretation of the Quran resists everything non-Islamic and is paranoid delusion. Holding such beliefs would demonstrate you are a very dangerous individual.

Islam will prevail in the end, no matter what the enemies of Islam will do against it. Islam will prevail, that is the promise of God. Those who fight Islam, militarily, through propaganda, or otherwise, are being played into the hands of the Devil, and they should mend their ways unless they wish to spend eternity with him.

Allah swt guide us all to the straight path and make us among the righteous.

Quran-thumping, evangelistic, hatred and bigotry.

 

[Bells]

That's part of the problem. You don't know how Muslim women portray themselves, so it is easy for Westerners to speak for them, ignoring their sentiments. There are many serials and movies coming from the Muslim world about the women's perspective on Muslim affairs and global politics.

So to portray the perspective of Muslim women, you need to do it through movies and tv series? What of real life?

The best way to ensure women's rights is first to make sure you aren't bombing them, their husbands, and their children,don't you agree?

Certainly. On an international level yes. On a domestic level, we should all make sure that all women, their husbands and children are not victims of abuse in the home. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm merely informing you of the uselessness of killing innocent Muslims and expecting us to then embrace your lifestyle.

What of the innocent Muslim woman who was beheaded by her husband?

We come from a culture in which resistance to occupation is one of our main cultural traits.

Which culture would that be? European Muslims and their culture is vastly different to the culture of Muslims in Indonesia and to those in the ME and to those in Pakistan or Africa. Or do you mean religious resistance to occupation?

We were the one's who fought off the crusaders, the mongols, the european colonists, and other invaders, don't forget this. Resistance to occupation is part of the Islamic religion, and Islam goes as far as to state that those who do not defend themselves and their brothers are not worthy of being called Muslims. There lies the problem for Westerners.

So those Muslims who take a passive approach instead of a violent approach are not Muslims? Okay then.

Interesting.

You do realise that there are many Muslims who are Westerners, don't you? Is it a problem for them too?

The power centers in the West, being differentiated from the Western populace (which is mainly ignorant), are fighting a war against Islamic civilization on all fronts: mental, physical, spiritual, economical, and social. Their goal is to pacify the Muslim masses through bloodshed and propaganda to make it easy for them to conquer the minds of the Muslims. This, however, will not happen, because the Muslim is not someone who is easily defeated. The Quran is what binds us, and God is who protects us.

Is this some form of rallying war cry?

I am getting a mental image of you on a horse with your face painted blue a la Mel Gibson in Braveheart.

And please, you are not one to call others "ignorant" when you are blatantly ignorant yourself.. even of your own religious history.

God says in the Quran: "“They (unbelievers) want to extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths. But Allah will perfect His light, even though the unbelievers may detest it. It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, so that he may exalt it over all religions, much as the unbelievers may dislike it.” [61:8-9]

"Pinky: Gee, Brain, what are we going to do tonight?"

"Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!"

The unbelievers who are referred to here are those who not only reject the message, but strive with all their means to dissuade others from it and to oppress those who embrace the message.

Oh I'm sorry. Is this where I am meant to convert as a form of repentance?

Thus we see it is useless to fight it. Islam will prevail in the end, no matter what the enemies of Islam will do against it. No matter how many women and children they kill, no matter how many innocent people they starve to death, no matter how many innocent men and women they torture, no matter how much they make the people of the world hate Islam and its followers. Islam will prevail, that is the promise of God. Those who fight Islam, militarily, through propaganda, or otherwise, are being played into the hands of the Devil, and they should mend their ways unless they wish to spend eternity with him.

Allah swt guide us all to the straight path and make us among the righteous.

Oh dear lord.

You should write for Hollywood for lame arse speeches.

 

[GeoffP]

Of course. But you can't do so and say that you are somehow better when in reality, you really aren't that much better.

Well, numerically, it depends. What intial figure are they citing and what % of the population does this amount to?

 

[leopold]

What of real life?

diamondhearts real life sucks so much it would put hurricane andrew to shame.

african brothers indeed.
like i told you before diamondhearts the shit isn't gonna work anymore in the US of A.

 

[scott3x]

but I still find that on balance, islamic societies have a lot more to learn from western societies then the other way around.

Yeah, like putting natives on reservations...

That's something from the past.

replacing populations with those who are "better"

Depending on your definition of replacing populations, that can be seen as something of the past as well.

creating the Third world,

Whoa there. -Creating- the third world? I don't think so.

undermining developing countries to keep them poor

If by undermining you mean sometimes aligning themselves with the more greedy elements from the developing countries in question, I would agree.

and exploit their resources, using resources without restraint, creating bigger and more destructive weapons

I hardly think those qualities are unique to the U.S. The only thing that's certain is that we can't continue being this unrestrained much longer if humanity wants to survive.

having a war every year with those who are unable to defend themselves, testing their weapons on the defenceless, killing people indiscriminately and acting like you're doing them a favor

I would contend that if islamic nations had the amount of firepower americans had, it'd only be worse. I don't have any studies that contend this, it's just a feeling I have. I think it's safe to say that it's much easier to criticize the empire then it is to criticize everyone else simply because all eyes are focused on it.

increasing hunger and social disparity, building an unsustainable environment and lifestyle. Etc.

I would argue that the U.S. or even western countries are no alone in doing these things.

Don't worry, you'll get what you wish for. But it wont make you happy then either.

I think that if I get what I wish for, I'll be a very happy man indeed. But what is it that you believe that I wish for ?

 

[S.A.M.]

I would contend that if islamic nations had the amount of firepower americans had, it'd only be worse. I don't have any studies that contend this, it's just a feeling I have. I think it's safe to say that it's much easier to criticize the empire then it is to criticize everyone else simply because all eyes are focused on it.

I'll only give the example of India. Which is the experience I have. After 800 years of Mughal Rule, Indians had their own culture, language and the diverse philosophies that embraced Muslims and Christians. We were a rich country that everyone traded with [possibly the richest].

After 200 years of the British, we were a Third World nation, divided as Hindus vs Others, partitioned, poor and illiterate.

Native Americans still live on reservations. They are still fighting for their rights [e.g. water rights].

Structural adjustment policy spreads hunger and inequity, it is the dominant economic policy of western nations.

 

[scott3x]

I personally shudder to think what would happen if -muslims- were the ones with the more powerful weapons.

I don't. They tend towards dialogue rather than action.

Hehe. Good one.

I must admit I'm very leery of S.A.M.'s view on this one myself