Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[Proud_Muslim]

Ok don't make me cry.

Dont cry my love....your tears are rare ancient diamonds hidden in crystal eyes....

Dont cry so that heaven wont cry....

Dont cry my love.....the oceans will dry and the seas will resign if you do.

Dont cry.

PM, the articles are pointing out that UNLESS a woman can prove that she was raped, and to prove it she must have 4 muslim male witness who saw the rape happen and can verify her allegations, then under Sharia Law, it is deemed to be adultery.

This is from WESTERN SISTER WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM:

http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4allah/003000.php

As a side note, in Islamic law, a woman who kills her rapist has committed a lawful act of self-defense and will not be charged with homicide. If she dies while fighting her rapist, she is considered a martyr.

 

[Repo Man]

Yes, we should look to the Islamic world for guidance when it comes to issues of human rights and freedom.

Performing oral or anal sex will become a crime in Indonesia punishable by up to 12 years in prison.

Sex before marriage and homosexual intercourse will also be outlawed under a moral crackdown by the country's justice ministry.

An amendment to the criminal code will also see extra-marital liaisons punishable by law.

Even 'living in sin' with a partner is to become a crime, with a draft bill proposing two years in jail for those guilty of co-habitation.

A man who impregnates a woman but refuses to marry her could spend a maximum five years in prison.

A sentencing range of three to 12 years would apply to sodomy and oral sex.

Homosexual sex would be liable to punishment of between one and seven years.

"It's still in its early stage. We're still collecting input from various parties and experts," said justice ministry spokesman Sukartono Supangat.

He said ministry experts are still debating ways to obtain evidence of such acts.

The dark art of witchcraft has also attracted the ministry's attention.

A witch doctor or his client found guilty of using black magic to hurt other people could spend up to five years in jail.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12805583,00.html

 

[Bells]

Dont cry my love....your tears are rare ancient diamonds hidden in crystal eyes....

Dont cry so that heaven wont cry....

Dont cry my love.....the oceans will dry and the seas will resign if you do.

Dont cry.

This is from WESTERN SISTER WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM:

http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4allah/003000.php

As a side note, in Islamic law, a woman who kills her rapist has committed a lawful act of self-defense and will not be charged with homicide. If she dies while fighting her rapist, she is considered a martyr.

And from the article in the thread that you posted up before you appeared to edit it lol:

http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4allah/003015.php

Now after following that link, I went to the article which she recommended all read. Her Honor: An Islamic Critique of the Rape Laws of Pakistan by Asifa Quraishi

And this article was extremelly interesting actually. I really advise you to read it PM.

When this law was enacted in 1977, proponents argued that it enacted the Islamic law of illegal sexual relations. The accuracy of that claim is addressed in detail later.4 First, it is important to note that the application of the Zina Ordinance in Pakistan has placed a new twist and a renewed urgency on the question of its validity. The twist is this: when a zina-bil-jabr case fails for lack of four witnesses, the Pakistani legal system has more than once concluded that the intercourse was therefore consensual, and consequently has charged rape victims with zina.

A few cases will disturbingly illustrate the concern. In 1982, fifteen-year-old Jehan Mina became pregnant as a result of a reported rape. Lacking the testimony of four eye-witnesses that the intercourse was in fact rape, Jehan was convicted of zina on the evidence of her illegitimate pregnancy (Mina v. State, 1983 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct 183). Her child was born in prison (Mehdi 1990, 25). Later, a similar case caused public outcry and drew public attention to the new law. In 1985, Safia Bibi, a sixteen-year-old nearly blind domestic servant reported that she was repeatedly raped by her landlord/employer and his son, and became pregnant as a result. When she charged the men with rape, the case was dismissed for lack of evidence, as she was the only witness against them. Safia, however, being unmarried and pregnant, was charged with zina and convicted on this evidence (Bibi v. State, 1985 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct. 120).5

The article then goes further:

Even though this level of punishment permits the testimony of women, observers of Pakistan’s legal system have noted the bias against women victims and defendants. Courts appear to extend the benefit of doubt to men accused of rape. However, they set rigorous standards of proof to female rape victims who allege that the intercourse was forced. This gender bias has resulted in: (1) women who find it so difficult to prove zina-bil-jabr [under the hudood requirement of four male witnesses] that they find themselves open to the possibility of prosecution for zina [under the relaxed ta’zir evidentiary rules]; (2) men accused of zina-bil-jabr being subject to diminished charges [because the hudood evidence is not proved]; and (3) women who are wrongfully prosecuted and who are afforded restricted protection against such prosecution (Rahman 1994, 1000).

Thus, the relaxed evidentiary rules of ta’zir (corresponding to its lesser punishment) open the zina law to further manipulation by authorities, who may threaten a woman with prosecution for zina under ta’zir evidence if there is not enough proof to convict under hudood. If the woman is charging rape, this exacerbates the potential injustice of the situation. A woman might watch her rapist be acquitted for lack of four witnesses, but herself be subject to prosecution for zina under the looser evidentiary rules of ta’zir.

So you see, even Islamic writers are seeing it as an issue and it's from a link that you provided me. This does happen PM. Open your eyes and you'll see that in some jurisdictions where Sharia Law is practiced, such an injustice to the muslim woman can and does occur. And that's for that link. It's been a really interesting read actually . I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[Flores]

Sister, why the name calling ? did I call you names ?? is that how you establish constructive debate ???

I'm sorry, it's an automatic reaction...Everytime I see your name on the computer, I pick up a 2x4 and attempt to assault my computer. It will take deep physcological treatment to stop this habit.

First, as I said, these are NOT my statistics, they are from the UN.

So why are you defending them like the SON you never had.

Second, why you dont look at RAPE PER CAPITA ?? you will find America in the first 10 in the world as well:
and if we remember that in America for EVERY ONE RAPE THAT IS REPORTED, 10 ARE NOT REPORTED, we will get very bleak picture indeed.

Here's where I will attempt to show you that you know nothing about handling statistics and you should be banned from ever using them as a reference.

First, to estimate the accuracy and liabiliy of any peace of statistic, one must look at the Standard deviation and coefficient of correlation. Thanks to your input, you have indicated that the margin of error is on the order of for every rape reported, 10 are not reported. That's not only for America, but a general margin of error. This means that your standard of deviation is very large, and your coefficient of correlation is very low...That means that you should not be in the business of correlating data or comparing data from different countries...Why? because the reported 50,000 rapes may actually mean anywhere between 50,000 and 500,000...Of course, there is no way to know what are the exact unreported data, which range from 1 till 10, and there is no way of having an accurate sorting or comparison for such poor data.

Now, you owe the American educational system, $1500, for that quick numerical statistics class that I have just given you....Ignorance is bliss though, so I waive your fees.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:
Performing oral or anal sex will become a crime in Indonesia punishable by up to 12 years in prison.
Sex before marriage and homosexual intercourse will also be outlawed under a moral crackdown by the country's justice ministry.
An amendment to the criminal code will also see extra-marital liaisons punishable by law.
Even 'living in sin' with a partner is to become a crime, with a draft bill proposing two years in jail for those guilty of co-habitation.
A man who impregnates a woman but refuses to marry her could spend a maximum five years in prison.
A sentencing range of three to 12 years would apply to sodomy and oral sex.
Homosexual sex would be liable to punishment of between one and seven years.
"It's still in its early stage. We're still collecting input from various parties and experts," said justice ministry spokesman Sukartono Supangat.
He said ministry experts are still debating ways to obtain evidence of such acts.
The dark art of witchcraft has also attracted the ministry's attention.
A witch doctor or his client found guilty of using black magic to hurt other people could spend up to five years in jail.



Repo man:Yes, we should look to the Islamic world for guidance when it comes to issues of human rights and freedom.

No one has asked the west to look to Islam for guidance on hurman rights and freedom. Didn't you get PM's point, what's good for/to you is not necessarily deemed good to him.

 

[Repo Man]

So you are not troubled by the prospect of gays being imprisoned for being themselves, or our fellow breeders risking jail time for coloring outside the lines?

The difference betwen Indonesia and here is that we do not allow our religious extremists to dictate our behavior for the most part. We have them, we just don't listen to them.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:So you are not troubled by the prospect of gays being imprisoned for being themselves, or our fellow breeders risking jail time for coloring outside the lines?
The difference betwen Indonesia and here is that we do not allow our religious extremists to dictate our behavior for the most part. We have them, we just don't listen to them.

The answer for the first two questions is no. There are many 'troubling' things in this world, most of which are out of our hands. Indonesia IS NOT the States and they have a strong muslim presence, that being said gays and women in Indonesia are quite capable of changing anything they may find 'troubling'. I was rather troubled at U.S support of Indonesia as it decimated East Timor but americans didn't seem very 'troubled' by their governments position and the press barely made a mention of it as it was happening.

 

[James R]

Proud_Muslim:

After such a good showing in the "Feminism and Islam" thread, it is a pity you are still in denial in this thread.

I know other people have said this, but I thought I would also give you a brief primer in basic statistics. Bear with me, because I imagine you will find this very hard to follow, given your problem understanding the rape statistics you quoted.

Primary-level statistics for Proud_Muslim

Suppose I am looking at whether people, given the choice, prefer apples to oranges. Suppose, for the sake of argument, I interview 3 groups of people from different countries, who repond as follows:

Belgium: Apples - 20 people, Oranges 10 people.
USA: Apples - 40 people, Oranges 60 people.
Syria: Apples - 4 people, Oranges 1 person.

Now, I might list the countries who record the most preferences for apples, in which case I get the following list:

1. USA - 40 people
2. Belgium - 20 people
3. Syria - 4 people

So, on this measure, Belgium comes out as the top apple-preferring country.

But is it fair to conclude that the incidence of apple-preferring is the highest in the USA from this data? No, because we haven't adjusted for the number of people in each group yet. The USA sample group was larger than the Syrian group, for example - perhaps because the USA has a larger population than Syria.

So, what we do is to list the number of apple-preferrers per 10 people, in which case we get the following list:

1. Syria - Apples - 8 per 10 people.
2. Belgium - Applies - 6.7 per 10 people
3. USA - Apples - 4 per 10 people

This is a much better measure of the proportion of people who prefer apples, because it allows us to compare the three countries on an equal footing.

Hopefully, you can now see why number of rapes per 1000 people is a more useful statistic than the raw number of rapes. If not, I can explain in more detail for you.

Here ends Lesson #1.
-----------------

INDEED, and that is why I still believe the USA is no.1 in rape because according to the FBI, for every 1 rape that is reported, 10 are NOT reported.

Yes, and suppose that in Syria, for every 1 rape which is reported, 100 are not reported. Then what?

You don't have any figures for Syria, though, do you? Because, as I said, they don't publish these figures. I can imagine why.

Me: Is it really the case that there are only 4-5 rapes per year in Syria, with its population of 17 million? That would give a rate of 0.0000003 per 1000 people, as compared to 0.32 per 1000 people for the US.

You: Since you CANT support your claim with ANY evidence, then I would assume I AM RIGHT...we dont have this problem...

That would indeed be a dangerous assumption. You are assuming, with no evidence at all, that Syria's rape rate is one million times less than vitually any other country in the world. If you really believe that, you are misguided indeed. It's basic common sense that that is very unlikely to be true. A child should be able to work that out.

we dont hear about it in the press nor from people....we dont sense it in our society, our girls GO SAFE to their schools and their work, we have 33 WOMEN MPs and the issue was NEVER raised in the parliement...it is to do with the MORALITY of the people and of course the DRESS CODE.

Many unfounded assumptions there:
1. If it isn't reported in the press, it doesn't happen. False.
2. If you don't hear about it personally, it doesn't happen. False.
3. Most girls get safely to school, therefore all of them do. False.
4. The issue has never been raised in parliament. (No evidence.)
5. "Modest dress" reduces the incidence of rape. (No evidence, probably false.)

And where is your EVIDENCE ????

Well, for a start, it is in the article I quoted - the part where it says (paraphrasing) "Syria doesn't collect rape statistics".

That is the only article you managed to find after long tiring GOOGLING !!

No. I found many similar articles.

even if I am going to take this article seriously ( despite the enormus BS in it ) does this article talks about RAPE GOING WILD IN SYRIA ??????

Violence against women includes rape.

Our main problem is POLITICAL HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, imprisonment without trail, political corrution and so on...

That may be your main problem - I don't know. But it doesn't mean that rape isn't a problem.

it is this SECULAR SHITY government that is causing all this problems, whenevr I switch on the Syrian satellite TV , I see secualr BS and secualr athiest writers preaching their poison, I see wild parties and half naked women dancing.

Does the government control the TV broadcasts and parties?

it is systematic campaign to corrupt our youth and drive them away from Islam...but it is not working...soon, INSHA ALLAH, we will kick those bastards away from government and we will have an ISLAMIC STATE.

Won't that be great? The Taliban sure did a great job. So did Iran under the Ayatollah.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote: So did Iran under the Ayatollah.

They had the Shah remember? The Ayatollah was living in France when a popular movement brought him back and the Shah flew from the throne into exile fearing for his life. He was america's man remember? He stood for all the rights and privileges americans hold dear didn't he? The Iranians have a right to the government of their choice just like americans. What do you care Chris if others want to live under Islam? Why don't you place your concern on the States and Bush, and the patriot act, the homeless, gay bashing, anti-abortion rights campaigns, the new trend of young girls giving blow-jobs at 12, health care, child care, failing public schools, etc, etc, etc, Perhaps you should ask yourself whether the U.S government controls its press?

I guess its easier to focus on another country where the socio-economic-religious-historical standards are different and pass judgement.

 

[Repo Man]

I dislike injustice and oppression wherever it occurs. This thread happens to be focused on religious dogma/intolerance.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote: I dislike injustice and oppression wherever it occurs. This thread happens to be focused on religious dogma/intolerance.

That's a nice sentiment...useless but nice anyway. Below is an excerpt from the thread opener, where does it say the focus is on religious dogma/intolerance? PM is a conservative muslim and obviously doesn't think its intolerant or dogmatic. Why shouldnt another country that has a muslim majority impose rules on non-muslims who are working in mulsim areas, especially since the law is supposed to only affect muslim areas? Where is the intolerance and injustice in this? And where there is injustice don't you think that members of Indonesian society will address it?

Malaysian City Imposes Islamic Dress Code On Women:

KUALA LUMPUR, January 10 (IslamOnline.net) - The Malaysian city of Kuala Terengganu, in the northern state of Terengganu where the Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS) is in power, has imposed its own dress code for non-Muslim women working in the private sector, creating havoc in some quarters of the largely Muslim country.
On Saturday, January 10, the PAS defended the Terengganu government’s imposition of a dress code for women workers, saying that provocative dressing by women has “a very close link” to murders, rapes, molest and sexual abuses.

 

[James R]

Lucysnow:

They had the Shah remember? The Ayatollah was living in France when a popular movement brought him back and the Shah flew from the throne into exile fearing for his life.

Yes.

He was america's man remember? He stood for all the rights and privileges americans hold dear didn't he?

Apparently not.

The Iranians have a right to the government of their choice just like americans.

Yes, provided that choice doesn't infringe on the rights of self-determination, both in their own and in other nations.

What do you care Chris if others want to live under Islam?

Are you talking to me?

Why don't you place your concern on the States and Bush, and the patriot act, the homeless, gay bashing, anti-reproductive rights campaigns, the new trend of young girls giving blow-jobs at 12, health care, child care, failing public schools, etc, etc, etc,

Oh, I do. I'm very concerned about all those things, too, believe me.

As a side-comment, this kind of thing is an argumentary fallacy seen far too often in this forum. It's technically given the label <b>tu quoque</b>, which is Latin for "you also". If I point out a problem in a Muslim country, it is not reduced at all by pointing out an equivalent or unrelated problem in the USA. The fact that the USA has problems doesn't in any way excuse other countries. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Perhaps you should ask yourself whether the U.S government control its press?

I think most people would agree that this happens to a much lesser extent than in most Middle-Eastern countries, for example.

I guess its easier to focus on another country where the socio-economic-religious-historical standards are different and pass judgement.

Not for me, it isn't. I generally find it a lot easier to be critical of the US, simply because I know much more about it.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

PM: These people are a trip! If the U.S government had bombed the shit out of Indonesia over some perceived human rights violation they would all just sit around blinking. But ohhh how they love to go on about rape and those damn garments! Damn it PM don't you know that you and eveyone who thinks like you should be like us even if we have to kill to get it? LOL. Geez I love the West!

 

[James R]

Nobody has said anything remotely like that in this thread, and you know it, Lucysnow.

If you want to complain about US foreign policy, go ahead by all means. That's what the World Events and Politics forum is for. Who knows, I might even join in.

But this thread is about whether dressing "provocatively" excuses a rapist's actions. Let's not take our eyes off the ball.

 

[Repo Man]

How far does your cultural relativism extend? Were the southerners right, us norththerners just didn't understand segregation, and everyone was happy, and we should have just gone away, and minded our own business? It was their way of life, how dare we interfere, or even judge it!

I have no qualms about being disturbed by watching an industrialized nation being dragged back into the shadows of superstition and fear.

Ancient books full of mistranslated myths only lead to a world of misery and fear. Relying on them for guidance was excusable in a more ignorant age. There is no excuse now.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:Are you talking to me?

Yes Chis I am talking to you. Why do you care if other people prefer to live under Islam? And yes the Shah WAS america's man. They shared a sympathetic, mutually supportive relationship.

Quote:Yes, provided that choice doesn't infringe on the rights of self-determination, both in their own and in other nations.

Outside of infringements on other nations (like we're one to talk), what should be done if there is a popular support for a government that does infringe on self-determination?

Quote: I think most people would agree that this happens to a much lesser extent than in most Middle-Eastern countries, for example

It shouldn't happen at all and if it can happen a little you dont know to what extent it occurs. But I understand your reasoning so what should outsiders do to or for those countries where the press isn't free?

 

[Xev]

Lucysnow:

PM: These people are a trip! If the U.S government had bombed the shit out of Indonesia over some perceived human rights violation they would all just sit around blinking. But ohhh how they love to go on about rape and those damn garments!

So...what's your problem?
If it's okay for Malaysia to do whatever the fuck it pleases, it's okay for the US to do whatever the fuck it pleases.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:But this thread is about whether dressing "provocatively" excuses a rapist's actions. Let's not take our eyes off the ball

This thread turned into whether dressing provocatively excuses rapists, only pm stated an opinion to that effect. The thread article said nothing of that. Of course you and I would probably agree that dressing povocatively does not excuse a rapist, but that reasoning obviously doesn't exist everywhere, in which case the law is just to restrict women's wear.


Quote:How far does your cultural relativism extend?

Its obvious you haven't read the entire thread.

Quote: Were the southerners right, us norththerners just didn't understand segregation, and everyone was happy, and we should have just gone away, and minded our own business?

First of all the civil war was fought by members of one nation. Blacks and abolitionists fought on their own behalf as members of one nation. Malaysian and Indonesian muslims are NOT members of our nation or group, they have different standards, religion, history, etc. It is not for us to decide what is right or wrong for them

Quote: It was their way of life, how dare we interfere, or even judge it!

Yes how dare you interfere, who the hell do you think you are? You can judge what you like but yes it is THEIR way of life. Why don't you stay home if you don't like it and solve your own damn problems. NO ones throwing a damn sheet around you!

Quote: I have no qualms about being disturbed by watching an industrialized nation being dragged back into the shadows of superstition and fear.

This is their sovereign right to worship smufs if they like!

Quote: Ancient books full of mistranslated myths only lead to a world of misery and fear. Relying on them for guidance was excusable in a more ignorant age. There is no excuse now

YOu talking about christianity? This may be true for you and me but who the hell are we to try and secularize those who do not wish to be? Excuse? They don't have to excuse themselves they don't live for you! They don't exist for you! if we are so smart why is there a burning Bush in the whitehouse?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Quote:So...what's your problem?
If it's okay for Malaysia to do whatever the fuck it pleases, it's okay for the US to do whatever the fuck it pleases.

Malaysia and Indonesia are doing what the fuck they please within their borders, their nation-state, these are their elected officials. Its a law Xev and there are people in malaysia and indonesia who will and are challenging those law. Based on your argument the guys who attacked the U.S also had the every right and reason.

 

[Repo Man]

Yes, the Indonesians, and every other country on the planet are free to choose to live in willing serfdom. Just as individuals are free to choose a life of slavery to a drug.

And I reserve the right to disapprove, and be disappointed in the choices humans make, both as individuals, and nations.

Germany was free to choose to elect a madman as a leader, and to round up the Jews and murder them. It was the desire of the majority, who were we to judge?

Those Indonesian gays and straights who end up in whatever hellhole passes for a prison there for the crime of getting or giving a blowjob will have my sympathies. I hope that we in the west will give them a place to go should they choose to leave