Silas said:
Even as a devout Christian, you really should be able to understand the difficulty, no? Nobody expects religion to be easy, but if people don't want to accept the unacceptable face of the religion they were brought up in, it's hardly surprising. Why are you so surprised?
I'm afraid you think that religious people somehow view their own religion as a burden. As something that "must be done, even though one doesn't like it".
As if Christians say, when slapped, "Well, you know, I must turn the other cheek, for I am Christian, my religion tells me so".
If you think that religious people think this way, and that this is the ideal of religion -- then I think you have a lot to learn.
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Adstar said:
Plus, non-resistance leads to further abuse.
So? we are not here to avoid tribulation.
No, I meant that in this sense: If someone, by using little force, gets something from you once, they will come back for more.
So you want some kind of inter-Christian debate on non-resistance? Well there is a bit of a problem there huston lol
Well, so I thought, hyper-cooperative me.
This forum is an athiest forum with an anti-Christian bent. i don't think it was set up to provide christians a discussion platform. If we are going to have an exclusive christian thread on this topic. then much of the posts are going to be preaching type posts, its unavoidable, and that’s one of the things that this atheist forum has banned. "preaching" The only way you are going to see a discussion on this is to go to a non-denominational Christian forum and make a request for such a discussion to take place.
Alright. I see.
You should not be surprised that there is disagreement between us. there are many different sects all holding to different positions on doctrines. The only way for you to clear up this thing is to read the words of Jesus direct. I think you will agree that Christians should believe in the teachings of Jesus
And this is my problem. I am constantly haunted by this idea that my understanding is never good enough, that Christians are always better at it, and that they have the final say. A newbie is a nobody and knows nothing, can get nothing right. A newbie should subject himself to the autohrity of the more knowledgeable.
Sadly, this is exactly how Christianity is sometimes practiced, at least this is my experience from youth. Believers look down on the investigating non-believers, with contempt even.
(no matter how illogical or foolish you think they are)
No, just so you know, I don't think they are illogical at all. Christianity is highly consistent (I say "highly" only because I only know a limited part of it for now).
Foolish? Well, then one had to have arguments, arguments justified by some higher authority. There are no such arguments and no such authority to my knowledge, so far.
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Jenyar said:
I think it's rather that your understanding of our views confuses you. You are employing the slippery slope fallacy to support your argument against non-violence.
Sorry, I am just employing the shit I have been taught about non-violence over the years.
If you can't give me the credit that I myself indeed don't know what to think on the whole matter -- then I'm sorry for both of us.
Let someone insult you without retaliation does not lead to further insult - they are already insulting you and forcing them to stop is the "might is right" approach. Jesus says might does not make right, and I agree with Adstar on this point.
See above. If a bully gets your lunch from you once, he'll come again.
An eye for an eye rarely works. It works only when both sides are exhausted from fighting, and they refrain from further fighting due to this exhaustion, or because they wish to avoid it. But this is no way to *solve* a problem, it only postpones it.
So there has to be something else one could do to stop the abuse.
As this is the "Love your enemies" thread -- suggest how you stop a bully from taking your lunch.
How you stop someone from harrassing you.
Letting yourself be killed or humiliated for this belief without retaliating is a powerful testimony and an act of faith, but letting yourself be anonymously and privately raped or abused makes you a martyr to some principle - not to God or to faith. Non-violence for its own sake serves no purpose and no God. It becomes a blind principle of action that might just as well serve evil as good - just as Jesus was "legally" guilty of claiming to be God and King.
The crux of humanism. "You should be non-violent ... because. Isn't that self-evident?" No reason is given, and if they do give a reason, it goes like "For peace, greater good, blah blah blah."
"Let the fucker hit you, but in the name of humanity, you shouldn't hit him back." Really? And a sane person should believe this, and act on this?! This person who hit you is just as part of humanity as you, so why should you let him hit you, and you not hit back? Because then humanity would be defiled? But he has already defiled it by hitting you.
I don't believe anyone can consistently act without knowing why he acts the way he does. And some reasons just aren't good enough, even though some may claim to be acting on them.
One can't be non-violent "just because" or "out of serving humanity". When we see this humanity (" ") betrayed, denigrated, mocked at, defiled and denied every day.
I takes a lot of irrational will to hold the belief of "serving humanity" in the face of seeing it betrayed every day.
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battig1370 said:
esus said, "Love your enemies". Does GW. Bush, the most powerfull man in the world except Jesus as hIs LORD, his Commader in Chief.???
The AntiChrist who is the son of perdition and the man of sin, who is also a Deceiver, would say, "Freedom will bring about Peace; Freedom leads to Peace; Freedom is the basis for Peace". But the 'Man of Peace' says, "Freedom cannot bring about Peace, but it is only with Love and The Word of God that Peace can be established, and there is no other way because where ever Freedom Reigns, Hell Reigns there also! And All the religions, All the money, All the Knowledge’s, and All the freedom in the world cannot bring about Peace without LOVE and The Word of God. Only when LOVE REIGNS first will there be PEACE and FREEDOM. Love must come first, so that the suffering can be stopped. The LOVE that I'm writing about is having Love for the Lord, having love for the neighbor, and having reverence for the creation . Only when the people of LOVE rule the nations with The Word of God, will there be PEACE and FREEDOM. Freedom will bring about total annihilation, but let LOVE REIGN in the world, so that day of total annihilation will not come.
I have you EVER heard Pres. GW. Bush say, "Love will bring about Peace; Love leads to Peace; Love is the basis for Peace"?
Just as an aside: In an episode of the X-Files, Mulder once found a witch who could fulfill any wish. And Mulder wished for "peace on earth" -- the witch granted it, and it looked thus: there was not a living person around. This is how you get peace on earth if you think that it is not the people themselves who have to do something to bring it about.
