Love your Enemies

[Adstar]

If it so be that I find myself assaulted, I should not fight back -- if I am to be a Christian?

No. you should not fight back.

If two men set out to rape, I should just let them? According to Christianity?

If you cannot flee then yes you should just let them rape you.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[water]

No. you should not fight back.

If you cannot flee then yes you should just let them rape you.

And you would tell this to your daughters and your wife?
Have you done so?

 

[Jenyar]

Adstar,

If you cannot flee then yes you should just let them rape you.

God did not give us our humanity back so we can avoid responsibility for it. It is to be put at God's service. Please show me how a woman parading herself as a hoar does that?

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be selfcontrolled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.​

Jesus showed us how to resist - and it is through servitude and love, not by cheapening ourselves.

 

[Silas]

I'm sorry, I thought this was an old thread, otherwise I might have commented here first rather than on water's other thread. Adstar I think if you put this question to your priest or other religious adviser, she or he is likely to bring you up quite sharply on the matter of allowing someone to commit such a deeply heinous sin just for the sake of not harming them.

Jenyar, "hoar" is a word for frost. You're thinking of "whore".

 

[ellion]

you have no choice but to do thy will, do that and no other shall say nay.

This goes for everyone?
The assaulters should do their will, and noone shall say nay?

perpetrators have no right to interfere with your will, to interfere with your will is not their right. you should say no if you will and say it with the strength of your will.

Might is right?


Also, if I kick the perpetrator and break his knee, I will be persecuted for "inflicting unproportional harm" on him. The law is on his side.

might is might only.

you are right, the law is designed to help people fuck you against your will.

 

[water]

perpetrators have no right to interfere with your will, to interfere with your will is not their right. you should say no if you will and say it with the strength of your will.

You did agree though (in the other thread) that "Thou as thou wilt shall be the only Law".
If you declare the law thus, it goes for everyone, whatever their intentions.
After that, it is only might makes right. The stronger one wins.

Do you see my problem with this law now? It lets violence rule unchecked.

 

[§outh§tar]

Adstar,

God did not give us our humanity back so we can avoid responsibility for it. It is to be put at God's service. Please show me how a woman parading herself as a hoar does that?

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be selfcontrolled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.​

Jesus showed us how to resist - and it is through servitude and love, not by cheapening ourselves.

Jenyar, the context of your quote is utterly impertinent to adstar's statement. He wasn't trying to advocate 'cheapening' ourselves either - only that we be meek like lambs for His sake.

Blessed are the meek

 

[§outh§tar]

You did agree though (in the other thread) that "Thou as thou wilt shall be the only Law".
If you declare the law thus, it goes for everyone, whatever their intentions.
After that, it is only might makes right. The stronger one wins.

Do you see my problem with this law now? It lets violence rule unchecked.

Cowards usually fear might; cowards inherit not the spoils, but rather the spoiled. If violence is the natural inclination, surely what worse despoilment is there than to inhibit and suppress it?

Or perhaps will you then respond that you are for the whimsical suppression of that which is natural proclivity (to some) - just because you say so? Do you see the problem now? The weak use their weakness to spoil and fashion the nature of the mighty. What pleasant freedom.

 

[Adstar]

And you would tell this to your daughters and your wife?
Have you done so?

Well i have no daughters or wife but if i did i would say the same thing i am saying to you. Being raped does not condemn one to eternal death. It all depends on what you value the most? To love and obey the Word of God or avoidance of suffering by violence.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hapsburg]

just shoot the person trying to rape you. blast his freakin' head off with .357, and call it self-defense!
not very hard, just keep a gun with ya.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

God did not give us our humanity back so we can avoid responsibility for it. It is to be put at God's service. Please show me how a woman parading herself as a hoar does that?

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be selfcontrolled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.​

Jesus showed us how to resist - and it is through servitude and love, not by cheapening ourselves.

You confuse me janyar.

where does "a woman parading herself as a hoar" come into this discussion???? Who said anything about someone doing that??

And what does 1Peter 5 8-9 have to do with non-resistance? did Stephen resist those that stoned him to death? NO. But did he resist satan in Spirit? Yes.

There is great resistance in non-resistance because we are resisting the one who wants to make us fall from grace, not the one who wants to take our lives or abuse us.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Hapsburg]

mmm..
y'know.
i dont care anymore.
leave me out of this.

 

[ellion]

You did agree though (in the other thread) that "Thou as thou wilt shall be the only Law".
If you declare the law thus, it goes for everyone, whatever their intentions.
After that, it is only might makes right. The stronger one wins.

Do you see my problem with this law now? It lets violence rule unchecked

i see how you see this as a problem

the problem is one of perspective, if these perpetrators were doing there will and no one else was interfering with them, they would not be needing to interfere with you.
the nature (natural will) of man is not evil.
it becomes evil when it (the true will) is distorted.
people will do what they will anyway, this only becomes a problem when the will they are doing is interfereing with the will of another.

this law does not let violence rule unchecked, it allows you to do what you will. the essence of the law is moving people away from the distorted selfish needs which give rise to violence and unbound lust toward the more natural needs for harmony and coopperation, the evil will be cast away the good will be purged by the prophet.

 

[water]

And you would tell this to your daughters and your wife?
Have you done so?

Well i have no daughters or wife but if i did i would say the same thing i am saying to you. Being raped does not condemn one to eternal death. It all depends on what you value the most? To love and obey the Word of God or avoidance of suffering by violence.

Would you want your wife after she has been raped -- practically willingly, not defending herself, per your instruction?

Or that someone were to come to your house to rape your daughters -- you would do nothing to stop him?

Have you any idea what you are saying?

You are saying that a Christian is to be like a Golden Retriever dog -- run, or give in.

Have you ever been assaulted, pysically overpowered?
Have you any idea what this is like?


* * *

the nature (natural will) of man is not evil.

This is a statement of faith. Unprovable. You can't hold anyone to this.

people will do what they will anyway, this only becomes a problem when the will they are doing is interfereing with the will of another.

this law does not let violence rule unchecked, it allows you to do what you will. the essence of the law is moving people away from the distorted selfish needs which give rise to violence and unbound lust toward the more natural needs for harmony and coopperation, the evil will be cast away the good will be purged by the prophet.

Then you need to make that law more exact:

"Do what thou wilt as long as you do not interfere with another person's will, shall be the only Law."


* * *

Cowards usually fear might; cowards inherit not the spoils, but rather the spoiled. If violence is the natural inclination, surely what worse despoilment is there than to inhibit and suppress it?

What the natural inclination is -- this is a statement of faith. I don't think you can come up with an actual answer.
Science cannot, for science cannot operate with terms like "violent" -- "violent" is an emotional expression.
It is then only up to an ethical decision whether the natural human inclinaiton is that of violence, or not.

Or perhaps will you then respond that you are for the whimsical suppression of that which is natural proclivity (to some) - just because you say so?

I think you need to give your style of doubt some style. Don't offend with style, if you can offend with content.

Do you see the problem now? The weak use their weakness to spoil and fashion the nature of the mighty. What pleasant freedom.

So it seems. But if the nature of the mighty can be spoiled and fashioned by the weak -- then they weren't mighty in the first place.

 

[john smith]

adstar,
What the hell is it with this god dam phrase?,Its so fucking annoying

'All Praise The Ancient Of Days'

I beg of you, for my sanity STOP.

 

[ellion]

the nature (natural will) of man is not evil.

This is a statement of faith. Unprovable. You can't hold anyone to this

oh yes back to that question of proof!
this is not a satement of faith this is an observation. i can hold myself to, and i can hold it uprto many people and it stands true. maybe your inability to accept this along with your inability to accept that emotionas are a large part of what makes us human says a lot more about your perception of self than your perception of humanity. perhaps your eye is a blinded mirror. but i believe inside you are not evil.

Then you need to make that law more exact:

"Do what thou wilt as long as you do not interfere with another person's will, shall be the only Law.

the law has been made more exact, "love is the law, love under will"

"thou has no right but to do thy will"
i am no thelemite, i have no master. but see the master therion for a better explanation of his law

 

[Adstar]

Would you want your wife after she has been raped -- practically willingly, not defending herself, per your instruction?

willingly????? you make it sound like i would be trying to tell her to enjoy the experience. Just because one does not resist does not mean that one enjoys or wills the abuse to happen.

Or that someone were to come to your house to rape your daughters -- you would do nothing to stop him?

Have you any idea what you are saying?

You are saying that a Christian is to be like a Golden Retriever dog -- run, or give in.

Have you ever been assaulted, pysically overpowered?
Have you any idea what this is like?

You really are having a hard time in accepting my answer aren’t you. How many more ways can you ask the same question before you accept the same answer?

I have been assaulted and it was not a nice experience. I never said it was.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[water]

oh yes back to that question of proof!
this is not a satement of faith this is an observation. i can hold myself to, and i can hold it uprto many people and it stands true.

I don't think it is a statment of "observation". Say "observation", and you're in the field of science. Statistics, charts, diagrams, please. How do you measure human goodness? ... And ah.

I don't mean to be cynical or difficult. There just is the problem of induction.

I believe we mostly function by the logic of common sense -- this logic, however, if scrutinized with classical logic and scientific principles, turns out to be awfully irrational.

This is why I rather avoid such conceptions, and simply stick to "I believe ..." and keep to the domain of ethics.

Many times, people argue because they have confused the ethical and the cognitive/rational.
If someone says "God did it", this statement can be meant ethically, as "God has authority over this, and we are obliged to it as the Bible says". However, "God did it" is so often considered to be a statment of cognitive/rational content, meaning "The thing came into existence by an unknown entity".

maybe your inability to accept this along with your inability to accept that emotionas are a large part of what makes us human says a lot more about your perception of self than your perception of humanity.

I still want to reply in the Free will thread, will do as soon as I can.

I am afraid you misunderstand me terribly -- if anyone, it is me who will be the first one to say that we are mostly all about emotions, and that the "rational mind" is almost "merely an extra".

but i believe inside you are not evil.

See, you "believe". Do you *know*?

It's the endless problem of empiricism.
You've probably read some other posts by me, and saw that I have a very skeptical attitude. I do -- and it is aimed against taking science for granted. Some people like to parade around "Science this, science that, religion is stupid, so are emotions, they are all subjective, religion is fantasy -- but science, oh, science makes claims about objective reality!" These people apparently don't know *how much* it takes to make a valid scientific claim, what it means to make a scientifically supportable claim. If you want to be strictly scientific, you can't say all that much, actually.

the law has been made more exact, "love is the law, love under will"

Then we'd have to delve into the nature of love.

 

[water]

willingly????? you make it sound like i would be trying to tell her to enjoy the experience. Just because one does not resist does not mean that one enjoys or wills the abuse to happen.

But it certainly comes across that way.
Plus, non-resistance leads to further abuse.

You really are having a hard time in accepting my answer aren’t you. How many more ways can you ask the same question before you accept the same answer?

I do accept your answer, it is exactly like my own was at first.

However, other Christians here do disagree with you.

So, I think that you, Jenyar and Marc, and others, if they join in, should clear this up amongst you.

To say the least, the discrepancies between the views you offer is confusing.

 

[ellion]

I don't think it is a statment of "observation".

i dont think its a statement of observation either, it is an observation.
are you saying that in order for it to have any value as an observation it needs to be quantifiable/provable?


i see the point your making in relation to science and god, i agree with both points. this is similar to what i said elsewhere to understand the whole you can not view its constituents in isolation. paint your picture with all the colours at your disposal.

See, you "believe". Do you *know*?

this is more a statement of faith, faith in my observations of our interactions.
maybe we should delve in to the nature of knowing to establish what it means to know.

Then we'd have to delve into the nature of love.

with our mind or with our hearts?