Love to the Dawkins

[S.A.M.]

God created poo too, but you don't have to eat it, just because its there and dogs do it.

 

[iceaura]

I disagree with your assumption that they were theists.

It's not an assumption, it's a consequence of taking them at their word, drawing conclusions from their theistic religious practices and professions.

I do tend to believe people who tell me they are theists without an immediate gain for themselves, and especially when they go to church regularly and pray to their claimed Deity and so forth. I even take your word for your claimed theism, with no evidence except your postings here, because it seems very plausible. I don't know from where else but one of the theistic religions, you would get the idea that eating pork chops had some equivalence to eating poo. Bizarre nonsense like that is often theistic in origin. And so I believe you.

On such grounds, the people who ordered the dropping of the atom bombs on Japanese cities full of civilians, women and children, etc, were theists. So were the people who carried out those orders. So were the people who manned the Crusades, the people who managed the Holocaust, the people who massacred the Armenians, the East Timorese, the Rwandans, and so forth. So were the people who killed for Stalin in the actual massacres, the people doing the killing in Algeria and the Sudan and much of sub-Saharan Africa.

The people who managed and enforced the Iraqi sanctions for so many years, the people who ordered, planned, and carried out the recent invasion, and the people who have been running the occupation since, were and are theists. The colonial British in India were theists. So were the subsequent enactors of post-colonial policies that killed as many people as died under Mao in China.

The evils enacted in the Americas over 500 years of European expansion and enslavement were enacted by theists.

Whatever the arguments in favor of theistic beliefs might be, that they protect against a society's turning to evil is not one of them.

 

[S.A.M.]

It's not an assumption, it's a consequence of taking them at their word, drawing conclusions from their theistic religious practices and professions.

And if they were really atheists, how would you know?

 

[iceaura]

And if they were really atheists, how would you know?

I wouldn't.

Like your belief that Stalin was atheist - except that in his case (unlike Truman's, say) there's some contrary evidence, but you choose to accept his own professions in the matter.

 

[S.A.M.]

Have you looked for contrary evidence in the case of the alleged theists? I'm assuming that you do not believe the US government is devoid of any atheists. Or do you?

 

[iceaura]

Have you looked for contrary evidence in the case of the alleged theists?

Sure I have. And found plenty. And posted it to you, in the course of pointing out that you have completely mistaken Dawkins' arguments against theism (and shown yourself unacquainted with common atheistic views in general ), in which the evils of theistic beliefs among the powerful play only subsidiary roles.

In common argument, the malign influence of theistic indoctrination is not merely that it creates belief in Deities - that's more of a symptom, albeit a serious one. The more disturbing aspect is that it disconnects faith and reason, so that neither is answerable to the other. From that, whether faith is elevated or reason, is secondary - neither way works to the good.

And the malign effects are not found most significantly in the private beliefs of the few and manipulating, but in the common discourse and motivations of the many and manipulated. Astrology and standard Christianity might both be objectionable, but it was not Nancy Reagan's secret belief in astrology that was most dangerous: it was the Reagan constituency's common belief in her espoused Christian faith, and willingness to support her on its basis, in the face of all reason and "common sense".

So: I have pointed out several times the significance of the apparent circumstance that something like 1-4% of Catholic priests are atheist. Have you considered the circumstance that the recent increase in mass murder under allegedly atheistic governance has only become possible from the recently enabled existence of both the mass and the means of murder in - in specifically, and not elsewhere - places where official theism has lost much of its former ability to curb inquiry and manage public discourse ?

 

[S.A.M.]

In common argument, the malign influence of theistic indoctrination is not merely that it creates belief in Deities - that's more of a symptom, albeit a serious one. The more disturbing aspect is that it disconnects faith and reason, so that neither is answerable to the other. From that, whether faith is elevated or reason, is secondary - neither way works to the good.

Thats complete nonsense and you know it. Bar some time periods here and there, religion has been the driving force behind all enquiry. Eduction, schools, universities, support for the arts and sciences, support for research all have been the hallmark of religious institutions. Theistic indoctrination? Ha! Thats more framing. All progress has been due to indoctrinated theists, with their faith in the impossible. People like Dawkins are full of crap. For a man who extols the oh so wonderful magnificence of science, he has had no publications in the last twenty or so years. He is more occupied with his religion. According to an Oxonian I know [an atheist, btw], his "data" showing that 16% of Britain is religious conveniently omits to mention the fact that only 25% of respondents answered his poll. Now that right there is a disconnect between faith and reason.

So: I have pointed out several times the significance of the apparent circumstance that something like 1-4% of Catholic priests are atheist. Have you considered the circumstance that the recent increase in mass murder under allegedly atheistic governance has only become possible from the recently enabled existence of both the mass and the means of murder in - in specifically, and not elsewhere - places where official theism has lost much of its former ability to curb inquiry and manage public discourse ?

Again, more nonsense. Look the places where state atheism hs held sway. Places as different as Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam. Most of these, except for Russia are places where "official theism" had no role to play in any public discourse.

 

[Myles]

God created poo too, but you don't have to eat it, just because its there and dogs do it.

That's no answer. Only sick people eat poo. Normal people eat pork; Jews and Muslims don't do so because of what it says in an old book of unknown provenance. That's stupid !

 

[iceaura]

Thats complete nonsense and you know it. Bar some time periods here and there, religion has been the driving force behind all enquiry.

What I said makes perfect sense, and you will have some trouble if you ever attempt refutation; and religion (especially State religion) has been a bottleneck, not "the driving force", of most inquiry. You could possibly make a case for astronomy being driven by religion in its early days, if you could separate the needs of political power and the State from the religion involved, but not much else.

I believe you have confused inquiry driving religion, religion paying for inquiry, etc, with religion "driving" inquiry - religion far more often answers, than asks, questions. "We don't know, but we can find out if we investigate" is not the common response of State religions to questions.

Have you considered the circumstance that the recent increase in mass murder under allegedly atheistic governance has only become possible from the recently enabled existence of both the mass and the means of murder in - in specifically, and not elsewhere - places where official theism has lost much of its former ability to curb inquiry and manage public discourse ?
”
Again, more nonsense. Look the places where state atheism hs held sway. Places as different as Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam

So the answer is no, you haven't considered it. Or you prefer not to talk about it.

Meanwhile, what are you talking about ? I simply pointed out that both the mass and the means of the mass murders you correlate (falsely at times, and without mechanism always) with the atheism of some tyrant, are also correlated with that same atheism and with mechanism.

North Korea, btw, is officially theist. It is a State Theism, listed among the world's religions. How privileged we are to see the light of theistic belief rise and shine once again, where it appeared to have been extinguished by tyranny ! We can also see the manner of its formation - making it, along with Mormonism and Moonieism (or whatever it's called) and a couple of others, one of our few windows into the origins of such institutions, fogged by myth and legend as they are now in most cases.

 

[S.A.M.]

What I said makes perfect sense, and you will have some trouble if you ever attempt refutation; and religion (especially State religion) has been a bottleneck, not "the driving force", of most inquiry. You could possibly make a case for astronomy being driven by religion in its early days, if you could separate the needs of political power and the State from the religion involved, but not much else.

I believe you have confused inquiry driving religion, religion paying for inquiry, etc, with religion "driving" inquiry - religion far more often answers, than asks, questions. "We don't know, but we can find out if we investigate" is not the common response of State religions to questions.

So the answer is no, you haven't considered it. Or you prefer not to talk about it.

No I just happen to have a wider world view than the white Christian world.

Meanwhile, what are you talking about ? I simply pointed out that both the mass and the means of the mass murders you correlate (falsely at times, and without mechanism always) with the atheism of some tyrant, are also correlated with that same atheism and with mechanism.

North Korea, btw, is officially theist. It is a State Theism, listed among the world's religions. How privileged we are to see the light of theistic belief rise and shine once again, where it appeared to have been extinguished by tyranny ! We can also see the manner of its formation - making it, along with Mormonism and Moonieism (or whatever it's called) and a couple of others, one of our few windows into the origins of such institutions, fogged by myth and legend as they are now in most cases.

Pure fabrications. Worshipping a dictator [mostly against your will] is not theism. Its listed as an atheist state.

State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1] State atheism has been implemented in communist countries, such as the former Soviet Union,[1] China, North Korea, and Communist Mongolia. In these nations, the governments viewed atheism as an intrinsic part of communist ideology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

 

[iceaura]

No I just happen to have a wider world view than the white Christian world

So do many others, without exhibiting the narrowness of perception you so often, as here, demonstrate. And one typical of not only theistic belief in general, but your claimed brand in particular.

Pure fabrications. Worshipping a dictator [mostly against your will] is not theism. Its listed as an atheist state.

Look at it: It's a religion, and it has a named Deity.

True, in the US Fundie Christian world - and the equally narrow, bigoted Asian Fundie Muslim world - such entities are often denied status. I have seen Christians called atheists by Muslim clerics, and vice versa, to give an idea of how far such judgments can be pushed. We can do better.

Worship of a deity - a divine forest spirit, a divine human spirit, an abstraction of some kind after centuries of sophistication - is theism, and having an official ideology involved and a formal, coherent system of beliefs makes it a religious theism. Here is some perspective from the wider world: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IE12Dg01.html

Now, are you going to, at some time, consider the correlation and mechanism I alluded to above - that your occasionally false and always mechanism-free correlations of mass murder with individually atheistic tyrants are also describable as correlations with mechanism between: the mass and the means, and the diminution of State Theism's control of scientific inquiry?

Note that this is not some kind of gushing praise of atheism and its scientific benefits - the means of mass murder, or even the miserable mass, are not necessarily glorious achievements. Your taking it as praise of atheism is symptomatic of some problems with your assumptions.

Or are you going to deal with the discordance between the strawman of Dawkins you have set up, and the actual common arguments of the particular school of atheistic beliefs he partially represents ? In particular, are you going to recognize that a focus on the claimed individual beliefs of tyrants and so forth is sideline, and that the disconnection of faith and reason in the larger multitude of people is more central ?

Another illustration of that:

Eduction, schools, universities, support for the arts and sciences, support for research all have been the hallmark of religious institutions.

Or, from the flip side: Monopoly of education, schools, universities, monopoly of the arts and sciences, monopoly of research all have been the hallmark of State religious institutions.

And individual independence of, to the point of resistance to, that monopoly has been the hallmark of scientific progress.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you'll find most people in North Korea do not consider Kim Jong a deity.

Or, from the flip side: Monopoly of education, schools, universities, monopoly of the arts and sciences, monopoly of research all have been the hallmark of State religious institutions.

And individual independence of, to the point of resistance to, that monopoly has been the hallmark of scientific progress.

None of whom would have got anywhere without those same institutions. Though, looking at current NIH funding and the ole boys club, its pretty much still the same kind of paradigm that exists even without the theistic institutions.

Now, are you going to, at some time, consider the correlation and mechanism I alluded to above - that your occasionally false and always mechanism-free correlations of mass murder with individually atheistic tyrants are also describable as correlations with mechanism between: the mass and the means, and the diminution of State Theism's control of scientific inquiry?

Perhaps I'm especially dumb, but I haven't seen these connections. What I see is that when atheists get organised, they are extremely oppressive in imposing their beliefs on others. If not for the Asian connection, I might have thought it a part of the white supremacism that made Christianity so much more oppressive in European countries than in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

 

[iceaura]

I think you'll find most people in North Korea do not consider Kim Jong a deity.

The other guy, the dead one, is more at issue.

They say they do. They act like they do. Visitors to Korea claim they do. I take theists at their word, barring good evidence otherwise.

Perhaps I'm especially dumb, but I haven't seen these connections.

You've made them yourself, with the atom bomb.

None of whom would have got anywhere without those same institutions.

The US, Soviet, Japanese, Euro, and now Chinese ones - including such innovations as corporate research - did just fine without theistic institutional support. Their contribution has been referred to as an "explosion" of scientific knowledge.

 

[S.A.M.]

The other guy, the dead one, is more at issue.

They say they do. They act like they do. Visitors to Korea claim they do. I take theists at their word, barring good evidence otherwise.

Oh I think the fact that anyone who does not profess is gets tortured is a good enough hint.

You've made them yourself, with the atom bomb.
The US, Soviet, Japanese, Euro, and now Chinese ones - including such innovations as corporate research - did just fine without theistic institutional support. Their contribution has been referred to as an "explosion" of scientific knowledge.

Sure, but they did it by oppressing people, instituting dictators, running death squads and torture camps and using people as fodder for their cannons.

 

[scorpius]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=234_1219845257

LMAO
thats the xian love we all heard so much about!
why dont jebus take all those fuckheads away already.