Love me or die!

[Adstar]

Forgiving the world...will not change it.

Not change it to make it a perfect place.

But forgiving is a shock absorber that takes the hurts and injustices and insults of this world and absorbs them so that what wrongs are done and not reflected and amplified through time.

Forgiving people are precious things, for they do not take vengeance for the wrongs committed against them and therefore can act as an end point to conflict to feuds to vendettas to arguments.

If there where no forgiving people, the world would become like a giant Balkans with endless intergenerational payback and bitterness, where grandsons would take vengeance for the acts of former generations upon their ancestors. It would get worse and worse until there would be nothing left but destruction.

We will all, at times, be the origin of a wrong to another, it is unavoidable. There is a constant production of wrongs in this world and we are all producers. If these wrongs cannot be forgiven then like a pressure vassal with no release valve the pressure will build until the whole thing explodes.


All Praise the Ancient of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

If one does not believe in God than one must believe in god. You are either a man of science of religon. A man of God is of religon but a man of god is a man of science.

*************
M*W: This may be your philosophy, but these are not the only two options.

The bible does not tell you what definition of "god" to take into consideration, because God is the lord almighty and god is a superior being.

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M*W: If you could provide some proof that "god is a superior being," we could continue this discussion. Until such time that you can offer some proof that god exists, your thinking is circular, especially using the bible as proof of god.

I am a man of science and do not know what God is, but I still believe in god. I believe that god the superior being could have created us and this planet because god more than likely has the answer's to unlimited or near unlimited energy and as such could have done such things.

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M*W: Why is it necessary for your god to have created this planet and us? It could have just happened as the universe expanded. Thinking that a superior being created the universe is a cop-out thought.

We also understand biology, but that too is still incomplete. So they could have easily, or maybe not easily, but either way, could have created us or atleast genetically enginered us to what we are now. We all are smarter, faster, strong and more resilient than ever before in history. The only thing we lack is unification. We tare each other apart in the name of race. Race, the great race. What race wins the race? WHAT ONE!

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M*W: If there was a god, seems like it would have created one perfect race of human beings instead of several different ones that clash. Also seems to me that if there was a god, the human race would have no defects or diseases.

If you die as a crack head forever you will be, but if you die as president, president forever you shall be. You are as you are now, and forever it shall be. I know alot about things like this, and alot about a very big paradox that is very well explained.

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M*W: This philosophy of yours is downright silly. First, you're going to have to prove there is life beyond death. As yet, no one has come back that we know of, regardless of occupation or lifestyle. For the crack head, his addiction ends the moment he dies. However, if there was a heaven, which there's not, all souls would be equal. There, again, we're gonna need some proof of an afterlife.

Do not reject all meanings of god for god gave meaning to us. Live and let live. Do you understand what that means? Do you understand the saying "Be they as it may". If you cannot answer either, than neither shall you ever. Let live so they may be. Be as they live. So as such do to others as they do unto you. This is karma.

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M*W: I do reject all meanings of god as well as good or bad karma in another life. What we do in the here and now directly affects us in the here and now. Right now is all we've got.

It may or may not exist, but you do not even reserve judgment for youself for that is for the gods. god is a superior being, and anything more superior than you is god. So for all those UFO's and what not, well you got it right.

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M*W: I'm beginning to think that you get philosophical after you've been drinking some happy juice. I realize you're new here, so if you want to spout your ideas in this community, you're going to have to come up with some logic and reason.

We choose not to believe but we even see with our own eyes. Must the god's shake your hands for you to believe.

When the Seraph's spoke in my dream, I now know.

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M*W: Frankly, I have not seen nor do I believe in gods, powers and principalities. These things are the delusions of dreamers, much like yourself.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

M*W! Yay. Are we partaking of the blue acid today? I find such value in all of your statements regarding religion.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

By the way, is that a pic of delta burke?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

By the way, is that a pic of delta burke?

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M*W: No, that's my actual photo, but I have been likened to Delta Burke, a younger Elizabeth Taylor, and The Mona Lisa, in my day.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

What kind of medicine do you teach, Medicine Mona Lisa?

 

[Carcano]

Forgiving people are precious things, for they do not take vengeance for the wrongs committed against them and therefore can act as an end point to conflict to feuds to vendettas to arguments.

I dont believe in vengeance either.

Vengeance and forgiveness both accomplish nothing...the original wrong is not made right.

When Jesus forgave the adultress he told her to go home and sin no more.

If she actually accomplished that...wouldnt it be better than forgiving her repeatedly or stoning her to death?

What does Yahweh accomplish by forgiving the world (by torturing his son on a cross???)...or consigning it to the flames?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

What kind of medicine do you teach, Medicine Mona Lisa?

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M*W: Physical diagnosis, mechanisms of disease, stem cells in biomedicine, obstetrics, gynecology, reproductive sciences by profession. Atheism by choice.

 

[greenberg]

You have a very limited range of problem solving strategies: do nothing or engage in carnal combat.

The crux is that this duality is the only thing many people understand to begin with. "Love or hate - If someone doesn't kill you, it means they love you." Unless you kill them or at least put up a fight against them (physical or verbal, but preferrably physical), they think they are free to do to you whatever they want. They don't ask you about what you'd like, want or need, they just go ahead with whatever they like, want or need. And if they do ask and they don't like your answer, they will dismiss your answer as "not making sense" or "unjustified", and continue as they wish.

A dog-eat-dog state of mind.

 

[greenberg]

Vengeance and forgiveness both accomplish nothing...the original wrong is not made right.

When Jesus forgave the adultress he told her to go home and sin no more.

If she actually accomplished that...wouldnt it be better than forgiving her repeatedly or stoning her to death?

What does Yahweh accomplish by forgiving the world (by torturing his son on a cross???)...or consigning it to the flames?

It depends on what is understood by forgiveness.

Some people think that forgiveness basically means "Okay, you can fuck with me, but I won't retaliate" and derive some sense of perverted magnanmity out of this.
I think such a notion of forgiveness is nonsense, and can even become harmful when an attitude like that develops "Okay, you can fuck with me, but I won't retaliate, because I'm a bad person anyway, so there is no harm if you do wrong to me".


In my estimation, forgiveness only makes sense if the wrong-doer
1. understands he has done something wrong,
2. admits he has done something wrong,
3. makes an effort to improve and not do wrong again.

Forgiveness is impossible if the person doesn't think they have done something wrong; if they don't ask to be forgiven; and if the two parties have different value systems to begin with.
But this doesn't mean, of course, that the wronged one must forever sulk or feel wronged and angry over the wrongdoing - those feelings are his to deal with, with or without the wrongdoer admitting the wrong.

I appreciate what Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes on forgiveness in his essay Reconciliation, Right & Wrong:

Reconciliation -- patisaraniya-kamma -- means a return to amicability, and that requires more than forgiveness. It requires the reestablishing of trust. If I deny responsibility for my actions, or maintain that I did no wrong, there's no way we can be reconciled. Similarly, if I insist that your feelings don't matter, or that you have no right to hold me to your standards of right and wrong, you won't trust me not to hurt you again. To regain your trust, I have to show my respect for you and for our mutual standards of what is and is not acceptable behavior; to admit that I hurt you and that I was wrong to do so; and to promise to exercise restraint in the future. At the same time, you have to inspire my trust, too, in the respectful way you conduct the process of reconciliation. Only then can our friendship regain a solid footing.

Reconciliation is something I see to be missing from the Christian notion of forgiveness. How can one reconcile oneself with God, if one has no personal knowledge or communication with God? If the whole process of forgiveness and reconciliation is formulated in a ritual? If the whole thing depends on how much imagination one can muster to envision God forgiving one? It's absurd. To say nothing of the problems with understanding the wrongdoing in the first place. We've done wrong merely by being the descendants of Adam and Eve? Or that we deserve to go to hell for all eternity already because we told a white lie? And which Christian conception of wrong is the right one - there are so many?

 

[Adstar]

I dont believe in vengeance either.

Vengeance and forgiveness both accomplish nothing...the original wrong is not made right.

We all have the capacity to absorb wrongs. Eliminating the ones that come to us by absorbing them into ourselves. Wrongs do not leave permanent suffering to those who believe in eternity. Some wrongs can leave lifetime disabilities or scars but if one has the peace of Mind that comes from Jesus psychological scars fall away.

When Jesus forgave the adultress he told her to go home and sin no more.

If she actually accomplished that...wouldnt it be better than forgiving her repeatedly or stoning her to death?

Well she would not have accomplished that. All she had to do was look at another man with lust and she would have committed adultery again in her mind. So being in that state of mind (as we all are currently in) forgiveness becomes a good option. It is good enough for us at this time to resist sin and doing so demonstrate our agreement with Jesus (that adultery is sin) and therefore have an attitude in agreement with God. Upon the resurrection these faults will be removed and God will accomplish sinlessness in us.

What does Yahweh accomplish by forgiving the world (by torturing his son on a cross???)...or consigning it to the flames?

Well forgiving the world He accomplishes mercy while not compromising justice.

And consigning those who refuse His mercy to the flames maintains His justice.

The way He decided to go about it was His call. I guess it is a way of attracting those who love mercy and repelling those who Love pride.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Simon Anders]

I did, but not the answer you wanted.

Sure. If I ask someone what time it is and they answer 'apple', they answered the question and it was not the answer I wanted. But beyond that kind of facile thinking I can only assume you did not understand the question or unwilling to answer it.

I am not a good person. I am not a good person. I am not a good person. Sorry i cannot find a better or more plain way to say it.

I agree, actually. You are not a good person.

Your inability to distinguish clear and simple words either derives from a basic flaw in your comprehension ability or a dishonest desire to twist what i say.

One can have a desire to die and be free from this world and be with their God without having the belief that suicide is a legitimate path to this end.

I never said you believed that suicide is a legitimae path to that end, did I? You pretend that someone said something and answer smugly how wrong they are. This is a lie, and, by the way, implicitly bearing false witness. This is another place where you are not a good person, but you do not notice it. Other people do first. This is why it would be important for you not to let these things fall like water from a duck's back.

Suicide is murder, self murder and against the will of God. But the desire to be with God in eternity is not against the will of God if one is willing to accept Gods timing in the process.

You hate life and God's creation. I acknowlege that you are willing to hang in there and not kill yourself. I have never assumed otherwise.

Did i say that i did not smell like the sewer myself? Of course part of the process is cleaning me too.

I realize that self-hatred is part of your religion. It is how you feels superior to others. They do not hate themselves and the world and this life as much as you do and thus they are not as good as you.

You wonder why you keep having to repeat things like 'I am not good'.
It is because you keep letting people's response to you wash off your duck's back.
Despite your saying you are bad 'you know, with absolute certainty' that no one here could possibly notice something about you - your smugness and sense of superiority - because you, the one who is not good, would have noticed it first. a moment's contemplation would show you that a not good person may not realize things about himself and other people may notice these things first.

 

[Carcano]

Wrongs do not leave permanent suffering to those who believe in eternity.

Agreed, most of our petty human resentments would evaporate in the light of a true immortality...as long as it was green and pleasant.

Well forgiving the world He accomplishes mercy while not compromising justice.

And consigning those who refuse His mercy to the flames maintains His justice.

The mercy you describe is merely the flipside of vengeance...a word synonymous with justice in Yahweh's universe.

If his vengeance disappeared...so too would the need for mercy.

 

[thoughtcontinuum]

those who dont believe in God cant believe in PURE LOVE which IS GOD!!!

what a contradiction??

True Love is GODLOVE

 

[Adstar]

I never said you believed that suicide is a legitimate path to that end, did I?

You said this.

is your faith only able to instigate withdrawal from this world.

Instigate withdrawal from the world… That’s what people who attempt suicide do, they Instigate their own withdrawal from the world. And that is what you where projecting onto my faith, that it was as a suicidal pact. I can see it, most others can see it, so stop lying.

I realize that self-hatred is part of your religion.

Yep self hatred of ones current state of being is a part of it.

It is how you feels superior to others.

How can one feel superior when one hates themselves?

What a twisted logic you must push in your attack.

They do not hate themselves and the world and this life as much as you do and thus they are not as good as you.

If they do not hate their current state then they love and accept imperfection and the love of unrighteousness is the key to eternity in the lake of fire.

You wonder why you keep having to repeat things like 'I am not good'.
It is because you keep letting people's response to you wash off your duck's back.
Despite your saying you are bad 'you know, with absolute certainty' that no one here could possibly notice something about you - your smugness and sense of superiority - because you, the one who is not good, would have noticed it first. a moment's contemplation would show you that a not good person may not realize things about himself and other people may notice these things first.

What a load of tripe.

I am a human being of course people notice this. And I knew that long before I came to be a member of this forum. Why do people let the messenger get in the way of the Message? Why because they want to avoid the Message and the way they do that is by pointing out that the messener falls short of the perfection of the message. Well wooopdy dooo, well done Einstein you have revealed the bleating obvious. If you cannot handle the Message and want to move on do so. But don’t waste my time.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Agreed, most of our petty human resentments would evaporate in the light of a true immortality...as long as it was green and pleasant.


The mercy you describe is merely the flipside of vengeance...a word synonymous with justice in Yahweh's universe.

If his vengeance disappeared...so too would the need for mercy.

Vengeance will not disappear therefore the need for mercy. God cannot allow wrongs to go unanswered. If he did that then all creation would see him as being unjust.

Being Just must never be compromised if one wants to be seen as the Legitimate Authority. God cannot compromise Justice. If He did so satan could rightly accuse Him in the presence of the heavenly Host of being unjust.

God has a way to be merciful to all who will accept His mercy as the true gift it is. God does not wish for anyone to face eternal wrath for their wrongs.


1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


All Praise the Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

Vengeance will not disappear therefore the need for mercy. God cannot allow wrongs to go unanswered. If he did that then all creation would see him as being unjust.

No, they would see God as being unvengeful...vengeance being the entirety of what justice means under your ideal.

Under the ancient Germanic system criminals were given the option of making wrongs right by paying the victims of their crime, somewhat similar to a lawsuit.

This is justice...not mere vengeance.

What you have under Christianity is a culture of polar opposite extremes, in which there is no justice.

You are either tortured for all eternity...or youre completely let off the hook without consequence.