Letter from school..
- Thread starter SnakeLord
- Start date
When I think of the USA, I think of show business, macdonalds, big cars, big people, guns, wealth, etc.., not religion. Can you show me how the USA (not just individual groups) is "highly religious", as opposed to highly irreligious?
Also, I don't think being runner-up to the US, in these matters, is anything to be proud about.
You say I am "painting (britain) with a very negative brush. Is it negative to show truth, or is it positive?
I was not "blaming" the downward spiral on anything in particular, even though all the categories just happen to be irreligious. I was merely stating that people who are 'seriously' religious do not partake in the growing culture of binge drinking, which could well be the biggest contributary factor to the fall. They couldn't, otherwise they would cease being "religious", by going against their basic tenants.
I would also like to point out, that, irreligion is not something exclusive to atheists, it is the opposite of religion. So someone can say they are religious, but their actions are contrary to the religion.
Your point doesn't actually explain anything as to why the downward spiral has become so intense. If you ask people in the UK why they think it has occurred, you will get answers like, young people have no discipline, there's too much violence and sex aimed at youngsters, in the media (especially TV), the police don't seem to care anymore, children can get away with anything and they are not scared of the consequences of their actions...
It never used to be like this, SnakeLord, so where has it come from, it is like an epidemic. At the same time the church seems to be becoming more and more secular, where, when they had more clout, we didn't have nearly, the many problems we face today. And that's from my own experience.
There may or may not be a concerted effort to transform the country in an atheist paradise, by "atheist" I mean people who do not believe in God, and I don't think binge drinking is an atheist activety. But for some reason it is attractive to a growing number of youths, it's consumption in large quantities seem to fulfil peoples idea of it being fun, and having a good time.
I would be more concerned with that kind of indoctrination being forced on my daughter, than singing some hymns. But that's only my opinion.
Jan.
There are many statistics concerning worldwide religiosity, of which America ranks the highest for a developed nation. It is the "freak anomaly" as far as religiosity is concerned. In the less educated nations you will find a much higher religiosity. Most of Africa are in the 90's. When you move toward the higher educated nations religiosity drops dramatically.. The only developed, educated nation that stands apart is the US.
Some quotes that might or might not be of value..
'weekly church attendance is higher in the United States than in any other nation at a comparable level of development, according to a worldwide study based at the University of Michigan.'
'Fully 44 percent of Americans attend church once a week, not counting funerals, christenings and baptisms, compared with 27 percent of people in Great Britain, 21 percent of the French, 4 percent of Swedes and 3 percent of Japanese.'
'Moreover, 53 percent of Americans say that religion is very important in their lives, compared with 16 percent, 14 percent, and 13 percent, respectively, of the British, French and Germans.' --- (Let it be said that the difference between 53 and 16 is vast).
"Pride" is not something I tend to fuss about really, I guess I'm just non-caring. I merely used it to serve as a debate to your claims concerning England and our atheist ways as being, either directly or indirectly, the cause of problems such as teenage pregnancy and binge drinking. You stated a question:
"Did you know that the UK is the leader, in europe, for underage pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases, the worst binge-drink, and drug problem. Even worse than amsterdam. It has the lowest literary levels in europe, the worse case of youth gang related violence in europe. Why do you suppose that is?"
Look at the actual question: "Why do you suppose that is?" The answer, given the rest of your posts, seems certainly to imply that the reason is because this is "an atheist nation"... An 'athiest' in your view being:
"who believe their main aim in life is to make alot of money, then get completely rat-arsed at the weekend."
Or perhaps:
"People who genuinely believing God is real don't tend to go round the pubs with the sole intention of getting rat-arsed."
And you seemingly tarnish "athiests" with this brush. bing drinking, underage pregnancy, gang warfare kind of mofo's - which is not only wrong and downright rude, but exceptionally naive.
Thus the reason I pointed out that a highly religious nation is actually in more of a predicament than the "atheist nation".
Your heavily biased "opinion" of what constitues "truth" is of little value. By all means do the big thing and express to me how everything you say is "truth" - but it is, in my opinion, foolish to try and do so. Your claim to truth does not impress me in the slightest. Especially coming from the person that claims the atheist "aim" in life is to earn money and get pissed. When it comes to facts there is no atheist "aim". Atheists lack belief in god. Whether they want to make money and get pissed or read Jules Verne novels is utterly irrelevant.
Of course you then went on, in the "truthful" (tm) words of Jan to tell me that those christians that drink are not actually christians. Naivety at it's worst.
But you were. If you didn't intend to then you did a piss poor job. Your statements however clearly indicate that you associate the problems in England to atheism.
Here's the problem.. you're talking Jan's idea of what those tenets are. You dismiss circumcision, others abide by it. You celebrate christmas - the more "real" christians don't because they recognise it as being a pagan festival. It's all about perspective Jan. You have absolutely no right to deny someone the identity of christian based on the fact that they do things differently to you. You and the other 16,000 christian sects might think you do, but you don't.
So intense? Please, you're falling for media hype. Old Paris and Britney out on the booze up.. So and so pukes in the gutter.. You're paying the 50p they'd say anything to get you to pay.
Kids go out, get drunk, puke in the gutter, get a hangover and still say please and thank you to their mothers the very next day. Nothing, absolutely nothing has changed from when I was a kid. There were still old grumpy fuckers claiming that "kids have no respect like they used to, the world is going down the shitter yada yada yada".
Nothing has changed.. the media, as always, just turn current affairs into absolute paranoia.
I heard these exact same things 30 years ago.
Yeah it did, it's simply your age and perception that has changed. You're now the old grump that you used to laugh at. You're now the father instead of the son.
Utter, media induced, hogwash.
The time you're recounting was when you could barely pee by yourself, where the world seemed larger and more innocent, where you knew little to nothing of the goings-on of teenagers. Goths were punks, 'e' was lsd, jungle was rock & roll, (deemed just as offensive back then). Nothing has really changed other than your perception. You sat in church being told by mummy what to believe, but there were still binge drinkers, there were still underage pregnancies and lots of guilt free sex. You just never saw any of it because you were listening to mummy tell you about gods. You grew up and now, from a daddy perspective see the world as a hostile place. From sand pits to minefields.
That's not what you were implying earlier.
It was the same good fun time 30 years ago.
There's the thing.. nobody is forcing your daughter to binge drink, they are, (and you probably are too), forcing her to sing hymns.
SnakeLord,
You asserted that america was "a highly religious country", did you not?
What is it about the US that makes it highly religious?
You imply that "religiosity" means lack of education, can you prove this claim, or is yet more wind out of your tired ass?
Don't you mean; "When you move toward the higher secularised nations
religiosity drops dramatically..
How do you know the people are actually religious? Maybe they go to church to feel respectable, or to socialise with people of a similar moral background.
Their are people who go into religious chat rooms, posing as relgious people, does this mean they are religious?
The USA leads the way in general destruction (last two centuries), would I be correct in assuming that all americans, and people who choose to live in america, are all destructive people?.
The trouble is you have 'wikipedia' understanding of religion.
Define religion.
It would seem so.
Stop evading the question. Now please answer it.
I implied no such thing, but the fact remains that people who harm themselves in this way do not have much restraint, whereas people who are seriously religious,do.
That's not what I meant at all.
In my experience, that is true.
Its neither rude nor naive, alot of young people who come from these backgrounds, do not fully understand what or who God is, because there is no outlet for this type of info, because religion has been ostracized, and replaced with a systematic version. This version is an empty vessel,
because it tries to move in the way of society, which at present, operates on a purely materialistic, sense enjoyment, set of principles. If you compare the two, society will always be victorious.
I see nothing in the public face, or foriegn policy of the US, that indicate it is a highly religious nation, again please feel free to divulge that information.
LOL!! So you
don't believe the stats you printed bare some relation to the state of this nation?
Atheism.... the business of denial.
Express to me how you come to that conclusion.
I don't really care what impresses you. You are just a bunch of words on a computer screen to me.
Now please point out where I seriously claimed that the atheists "aim" in life is to earn money and get pissed.
First you must define 'christian'.
We've been through this before, and you characteristically evaded the question then. Lets see how you do this time.
Evidence.
Its got nothing to do with rights. If I claim to be something then I must be that thing, or be that thing to the best of my ability. A christian is a follower of christ Jesus. Christ Jesus' teachings, philosophy and principles are there for the world to see. They are not mysterious or ambiguous, but totally up front and easy to comprehend. It is not hard to detect whether someone is a christian according to their master, or a christian according to their own whims, the latter being pointless from a religious perspective.
Denial, the atheist trademark.
Mmmmmkay!
So did I, but the difference is that now its really nasty.
Its really nasty out there, most intelligent people
will tell you that, and the reason is because each new generation that comes, have within it, real, hardcore idiots.
You don't know what time I'm recounting.
No, it wasn't just as offensive, it was considerably less offensive. Kids weren't charging into other kids home, shooting them in the temple because they were playing a subsequent computer game the day before, and it seemed like a good way to kill this boy because he looked at me funny.
Again, you attempt to tell me of my own life, please refrain from doing that, as it adds nothing to the debate, other than making me not want to respond.
Stick to what you know.
In those days it was shamefull to be a drunk and
to be pregnant before marriage. Each year do-gooders
seek to lift the veil offa these restrictions in the name of freedom, and human rights. So I dread to see what life will be like in 20 years time (if i'm alive).
SnakeLord....he knows everything!!
*eerie Vincent Price music fades in the background*
If nobody is forcing youngsters to binge drink, why has it become a national, culteral, pastime?
If younsters are being indoctrinated, forced into worship, why is there is serious decline in religion?
Jan.
You asserted that america was "a highly religious country", did you not?
What is it about the US that makes it highly religious?
You imply that "religiosity" means lack of education, can you prove this claim, or is yet more wind out of your tired ass?
Don't you mean; "When you move toward the higher secularised nations
religiosity drops dramatically..
How do you know the people are actually religious? Maybe they go to church to feel respectable, or to socialise with people of a similar moral background.
Their are people who go into religious chat rooms, posing as relgious people, does this mean they are religious?
The USA leads the way in general destruction (last two centuries), would I be correct in assuming that all americans, and people who choose to live in america, are all destructive people?.
The trouble is you have 'wikipedia' understanding of religion.
Define religion.
It would seem so.
Stop evading the question. Now please answer it.
I implied no such thing, but the fact remains that people who harm themselves in this way do not have much restraint, whereas people who are seriously religious,do.
That's not what I meant at all.
In my experience, that is true.
Its neither rude nor naive, alot of young people who come from these backgrounds, do not fully understand what or who God is, because there is no outlet for this type of info, because religion has been ostracized, and replaced with a systematic version. This version is an empty vessel,
because it tries to move in the way of society, which at present, operates on a purely materialistic, sense enjoyment, set of principles. If you compare the two, society will always be victorious.
I see nothing in the public face, or foriegn policy of the US, that indicate it is a highly religious nation, again please feel free to divulge that information.
LOL!! So you
don't believe the stats you printed bare some relation to the state of this nation?
Atheism.... the business of denial.
Express to me how you come to that conclusion.
I don't really care what impresses you. You are just a bunch of words on a computer screen to me.
Now please point out where I seriously claimed that the atheists "aim" in life is to earn money and get pissed.
First you must define 'christian'.
We've been through this before, and you characteristically evaded the question then. Lets see how you do this time.
Evidence.
Its got nothing to do with rights. If I claim to be something then I must be that thing, or be that thing to the best of my ability. A christian is a follower of christ Jesus. Christ Jesus' teachings, philosophy and principles are there for the world to see. They are not mysterious or ambiguous, but totally up front and easy to comprehend. It is not hard to detect whether someone is a christian according to their master, or a christian according to their own whims, the latter being pointless from a religious perspective.
Denial, the atheist trademark.
Mmmmmkay!
Pathological denial...the hallmark of atheism.
So did I, but the difference is that now its really nasty.
Its really nasty out there, most intelligent people
will tell you that, and the reason is because each new generation that comes, have within it, real, hardcore idiots.
You don't know what time I'm recounting.
No, it wasn't just as offensive, it was considerably less offensive. Kids weren't charging into other kids home, shooting them in the temple because they were playing a subsequent computer game the day before, and it seemed like a good way to kill this boy because he looked at me funny.
Again, you attempt to tell me of my own life, please refrain from doing that, as it adds nothing to the debate, other than making me not want to respond.
Stick to what you know.
In those days it was shamefull to be a drunk and
to be pregnant before marriage. Each year do-gooders
seek to lift the veil offa these restrictions in the name of freedom, and human rights. So I dread to see what life will be like in 20 years time (if i'm alive).
SnakeLord....he knows everything!!
*eerie Vincent Price music fades in the background*
If nobody is forcing youngsters to binge drink, why has it become a national, culteral, pastime?
If younsters are being indoctrinated, forced into worship, why is there is serious decline in religion?
Jan.
Its idiot president. Plus the last ARIS study that was posted showed a 76.5% christian population.
Because they said so in the survey. I cannot imagine that any percentage of 159 million, 30 thousand adult people would lie about their religion to satisfy Jan's arguments. Or even lie to appear "socially correct" on an identity-confidential survey.
See Dubya's speeches on any given day he talks about his war on terrorism.
But...I'll let SL handle the rest of your response.
The... amount of religious people?
I didn't imply anything, I merely stated that statistically speaking the less educated nations have a higher rate of religiosity.
Why such bitterness? That's truly "un-christian" behaviour. From your own earlier statements should I now conclude that you're not actually a "real" christian?
As for the question..
1991 General Social Survey
"The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith", Free Inquiry, Spring 1986
"How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science", Michael Shermer,
The Gallup Millennium Survery
[Paul Bell in Mensa Magazine, 2002, reviewed all studies taken of religion and IQ. He concluded:]
"Of 43 studies carried out since 1927 on the relationship between religious belief and one's intelligence and/or educational level, all but four found an inverse connection. That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold "beliefs" of any kind."
These are just a couple of examples of many. With some time and effort spent you'll find statistics concerning religiosity and earnings, religiosity and partnership, religiosity and criminality and so on.. You will find that most end up with religiosity being a negative thing, (e.g As far as criminality is concerned: In March 1997, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Prisons released statistics on the religious affiliations of inmates. Only 0.209% of all the inmates whose religion is known (80.3% of all inmates) are atheists, compared to 83.8% of Christians) etc..
The list goes on.
Nope, I meant what I said.
Fine, we'll assume everyone is lying... that's clearly the only way you'll be happy. Tell you what, whenever anyone answers "atheist", we'll also just assume they're lying too and therefore end up with 100% religiosity for every country on the planet. You happy now Jan?
Why would you do that? Sorry, but I fail to see where you think an adequate comparison can be made. If you did a survey of Americans and asked if they consider themselves destructive people then perhaps we could use the example and work from there. There's a difference between a survey and an "assumption".
Now you're being plain silly.
Buy a dictionary. In the meantime I hope this is sufficient:
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Stop evading my statement by pretending I ever evade your questions. Talking of which, I still await an answer from like 8 pages ago.... Would you have issue with your childs school if they did forced daily satanic worship? (it's a yes or no, can't be that difficult).
Your question can be answered in many ways: bad government? Children having more rights than they used to? (back in the day kids got beaten for misbehaving, you can't do that anymore).. It's a long list.
I can't think of where atheism would come into the equation.
I am afraid you did, and continue to do so..
Clearly inaccurate given religiosity/criminality statistics. So much for "restraint". However, now I'm going to return your statement: "Do you have any 'proof' of this or are you just talking out of your tired ass"? Well?
Bull-poo. What is this very thread about? Schools not only conduct religious education but forced daily worship of a wholly or largely christian nature. And, as you would undoubtedly state, it has been this way for a very long time. In saying this, your claim wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. You'd have to look at what has changed.. Again I would point more at politics and the rights now given to children that we never had back in our day. Not only that but it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny given, for instance, that Germany has a lower rate of religiosity and yet also has lower pregnancies etc etc... On the other side of that you have America with much higher religiosity and much higher pregnancies.
Then clearly your eyes have been stapled shut. However, it's not entirely clear what you're trying to dispute exactly. Can we agree for the sake of discussion that America has a higher level of religiosity than the UK? If you agree, we can conclude that the higher religious nation actually has a higher rate of teenage pregnancy, and thus dismiss any correlation between that and irreligiosity. If you claim America has a lower level of religiosity than England, not only would I laugh my pants off, but I would ask for something to show that as being the case.
There you go again with your anti-atheism statements while all you have done here is deny the facts of the matter. The state of this nation is not due to a lack of belief in gods - and is being exaggerated by your paranoia.
Scroll back a few posts.
Actually I answered it and you scurried off. Scroll back a few pages. I could now add that a christian does not go around insulting people - that's a very "unchristian" thing to do. In saying, are you now no longer a christian because of that? If not, what makes you a christian?
Basically we were on a religious subject, (the forcing of religious worship in schools). You went on to state that England is a highly atheist nation and then when on to recount it's pregnancy, binge drinking yada yada statistics. It would seem at this moment in time that you are trying to link the two, otherwise there would have been no point in recounting the statistics. Why did you do it if not to make a comparison? For no reason whatsoever?
However, ok.. you are now stating that you weren't implying that atheism or lack of belief in gods is a part of the decline in England. What then do you blame it on, (other than more "hardcore idiots being born - in which case see further down where I ask you to explain why there are more hardcore idiots being born and if you have anything to support the claim)?
Ability differs from person to person. You cannot dismiss someone as being christian merely because they can't keep up to Jan's personal standards. Of course there are some christians that don't insult people.. I guess they have an ability that you don't.. That does not mean you're no longer a christian Jan.
With 5 minutes effort I could come up with a dozen things stated by jesus that you do not do, or follow.. I wonder if then you will state you're not a christian.
An agreement, a denial? What? Come on Jan, even you can do better than that.
The third time in the past 5 minutes I have had to witness this idiocy. Was there a point to it?
From your now different perspective, sure.
So.. the problem is that more "hardcore idiots" are being born than ever before? What exactly, in your opinion, has led to this rise in birth of "hardcore idiots"? Do you have any "proof" to back up your claim? (Come on Jan, requesting "proof" is not a one way thing).
Apart from the computer games, (because there weren't any), I disagree with you.
What a hypocrite. You think "denial, the atheist way" or "your tired ass" adds anything to debate or makes me want to respond? Tell you what Jan, you start listening to your own advice and I'll relent.
So... you're against human rights? *start sarcasm* Bloody "do-gooders", who do they think they are, giving rights to humans *end sarcasm*
Of course to add to that, I would submit that being drunk or pregnant as a teenager is still just as shameful. If it wasn't you wouldn't be buying into all that media hype about the state of Britains youth. Instead the papers would be saying "teenager got drunk, good on him".
Because drinking is actually an enjoyable thing to do - it's just very very difficult knowing exactly when to stop. Further to that, there's very little for people to do - young or older. The price of everything is rising so much.. I took my wife and daughter to the cinema and that cost me around £20 when back in the day the same would have cost me less than a fiver. Cinemas are also very anti social whereas the pub is the perfect place for anyone that likes to be social. £20 in the pub goes a lot further and leads to a much more enjoyable night than the cinema, bowling etc could ever manage. Again, the problem stems from not knowing when to call it quits.
Because people are realising it's all bullshit.
Last edited:
SnakeLord said:
non-sequitor.
=SL said:
earlier;
jAN said:
SL said:
The implication is as plain as the nose on your face, just by this exchange, what to speak of the dodgy stats.
Don't be so unreasonable, it is entirely possible that "being religious" is based on perception rather than actuality from either party.
To be an atheist (in the literal sense) is simple, one just denies the authority of God.
Don't you think most people would give the obvious answer (no)?
Which is why I take these surveys with a pinch of salt.
This is nonsense. It is little wonder there can be no construction discussion from you, on this subject.
Based on your definition of "religion", I would rather readr definition of "satanic worship" before I give an answer.
Atheism, to me, is to deny the authority of God. That means to act upon your own whims. That being the case it could easily enter into the equation depending on the intelligence of the individual.
And please don't ask for scientific proof of God, because that tactic is nothing but a red-herring.
Believe what you like, I know what I mean.
Because of the seriousness of the stat claims, you have to provide more than the results, before we move on that subject, otherwise I see no reason to believe it is anything but lies.
You only need to look at your definition of religion to understand my point.
This statement is contextually irrelivant, the fact is there is nothing in the media that fully explains what or who God is from the proper scriptoral sources.
America is not a religious country, it is the mother of secularism, although there are religious groups within it.
Americans describe america as "the land of the free", you can obtain the "american dream". The presidents don't say God bless all, they say "God bless america". There is nothing religious about the country of america.
I am not "anti-atheist", in real terms that statement is nonsense, because to some I am classed as an atheist, and to others I am not.
What you regard as atheist, is, imo, beyond what atheism is, and I don't buy it.
I think you purposely use the word "force" to make it seem that these institutions are of an extreme nature, thereby giving religion a bad name.
The truth is, although it is a law to have some kind of worship in schools, most schools do not obey this law, and they do not come under any scrutiny for it. Just like most taxis do not carry a bail of hay in the trunk
I don't regard "atheism" as a "lack of belief in gods", I regard it as one who denys the authority of God, period. I do believe that a lack of belief in the authority of God, the reason why we act whimsically with regard to morals. That term, I describe as "atheistic".
They're not my personal standards, they the standards set by Jesus. After all, that is who they aspire to be like.
LOL!! So you're saying it was common place, in england, thirty, forty, years ago for 13/14/15 year olds to murder their peers?
Its not difficult at all.
Poppycock.
So they turn to good old drink, shag anything, kebabs, and scraps.
I'll stay with what you regard as bullshit, thanks.
Jan.
No - an atheist denies the existence of God.
To deny just the authority of God suggests that the atheist still thinks there is a God.
To be a theist is not to accept the Authority of God, but to accept just the existence of God.
Generally the believed-nature of that God gives automatic rise to acceptance of the authority, so I can understand your mistake.
Rational thought.
I have no evidence for or, indeed, against the existence of God - therefore I do not believe in (i.e. I deny) the existence of God.
If you have no evidence either way, why choose to deny the existence of God?
And what type of evidence would make you reverse your current position?
Jan.
The same reason you choose to deny the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster, Big Foot, the Tooth Fairy. With no evidence, it is at the very least questionable to assume a positive truth.
Evidence: physical appearance, visible miracles, a visit to heaven for a spot of tea, something like that! Maybe a little spontaneous human construction. And it all should be eyewitnessed by more than 1 person (inclusive of myself) and video recorded. Sporadic encores to reinforce existence.
None of this evidence means that anyone would be automatically required to worship any such being by the by...power does not equate to religious devotion.
PS I thought this thread died lol since it hasn't I thought i'd bounce my big butt in
The same reason you choose to deny the existence of a Flying Spaghetti Monster, Big Foot, the Tooth Fairy. With no evidence, it is at the very least questionable to assume a positive truth.
Evidence: physical appearance, visible miracles, a visit to heaven for a spot of tea, something like that! Maybe a little spontaneous human construction. And it all should be eyewitnessed by more than 1 person (inclusive of myself) and video recorded. Sporadic encores to reinforce existence.
None of this evidence means that anyone would be automatically required to worship any such being by the by...power does not equate to religious devotion.
PS I thought this thread died lol since it hasn't I thought i'd bounce my big butt in
LOL!!!
I was wondering how long it would take for you and your big butt to appear.
I will try and respond to both recent responses as soon as I can.
Jan.
I'm pretty sure that SL would agree with my first paragraph, even if he expands on it
No. Question. You asked what makes a religious nation, in response I asked whether the answer comes from the amount of religious people. It would seem quite appropriate.
Well it's worth mentioning that you can't see the nose on my face, perhaps I lost it in an accident many years ago. Not so plain now heh.. Again, there is no 'implication' merely what the data points at. If it makes you feel better I will state that the more religious a person the higher their IQ, but that's not what the stats show. I don't care whether you want religious people to have a higher IQ or not, we can only go by the stats.
But anyway, what exactly makes those stats "dodgy"?
1) You need to spend some time working out what an atheist is. Your statement quoted is bollocks, plain and simple.
2) Which god do they deny the authority of?
3) You will have atheists that lack belief in gods or atheists that actively believe there are no such thing as gods but you wont have an atheist that has a belief in gods but merely denies their authority because by having a belief in gods one is no longer an atheist but a theist.
The most "obvious" answer? What does that mean?
It's likely to state that some people will certainly answer a question from a position of experience as opposed to personal devotion to that belief.. For instance, a person that grew up in a christian family might very well put himself down as christian by default. However, this is going to occur everywhere and thus the stats still reflect the same thing. If France for example has 16% religiosity and America has 60% religiosity, you'll find that in both nations there were people that gave a default answer. If it helps, drop the figure of "true" christians down a notch.. So, France 8% religiosity and America 30% religiosity. America still turns out as the country with higher religiosity, (and thus in comparison to France would be considered a highly religious nation).
Kindly go ahead then and correct the dictionary and myself. I at least had the decency to correct your misunderstanding of what an "atheist" is than just give it the tough guy attitude. Well Jan? Shoot..
More tough guy attitude, it's getting tiresome. However, instead lets just use your worthless definition of atheism and use that instead. Would you like your child being forced into daily "denial of gods authority"?
Anything will suffice right now if it gets you to stop avoiding the question.
"No wonder there can be no constructive discussion on the subject" :bugeye:
Interesting. So do you act on your own whim ever or does god tell you to do everything you do?
You'll find I'm not one of those people that generally sits down and asks for "proof". I do indeed agree with the statement that "proof is for mathematicians and alcohol". Some evidence would be nice though. I adopt the same principle for everything.
If you said you believed in leprechauns I wouldn't ask for "proof", but I would ask that you provide some evidence to support the claim. It's not a "red herring", it's simply what is expected in life of everything. If someone says "here's a tea, it's not hot", I will still expect evidence, (I'll sip it first instead of just pouring it down my throat). When I cross the road I look left and right etc. In everything people do they gather evidence, that is the nature of our species. It's not a "tactic" designed to upset the fragile theist mind, it's life.
So you will ignore any statistics as "all lies" based upon what exactly? Do you have anything to support your "belief" that's it all lies?
More of your tough guy gibberish. It aids nothing.
And what or who is god exactly? Who has the final say as to what or who "your" god is, you? What god are we talking about exactly anyway?
What with "god" on it's money, in their "god bless America" speeches, "god" in it's anthem etc one could almost be mistaken for concluding it's clearly an atheist country *end sarcasm*
However, kindly support your claim that "there is nothing religious about America" with a little bit more than your personal say so. Got any stats or anything?
What you "buy" doesn't change anything. To "deny the authority" of gods, one must believe in them - thus making them theists. It's really quite simple.
Religion gives itself a bad name without my input. My problem here is not with 'religion' but an institution in a our modern day nation forcing worship upon children that have not been given personal choice in the matter.
As that is the "truth" (tm) I'm sure you can support the claim with something a little bit more pertinent than your say so.
Once more: no wonder we can have no constructive discussion.. *yawn*. Btw, which god are we talking about that these atheists (of which I am one), deny the authority of? Do I sit here denying the authority of Zeus perhaps? Sorry Jan, you need to be specific.
Who are we talking about here? I do not act "whimsically" with regards to morals, so do I therefore have a belief in the authority of gods? Are you reflecting your own lacks upon me Jan? Who's "we" exactly?
Right then, and I have sat here witnessing you insulting me. Is that a standard set by jesus and if not does that now mean you're not christian?
Entirely dependant upon where you live. In my 'neck of the woods' it isn't commonplace today. I can't think of one instance where it has happened here. Of course if I travel to some of the poorer, council parts of London then it probably is commonplace. As for 30/40 years ago I'll have to try and find some figures. Needless to say though, people have been killing people since time immemorial and will continue to do so, (yes, that invariably includes the religious).
I bow down to your almighty abilities. *end sarcasm*
But that to me sounds like some serious experience right there. After all this time giving such negativity to drinkers and those that act in a manner unlike jesus would expect them to and here it seems that you're one of the gang. You sly old dog, you.
Each to their own. And that indeed was the very point and purpose of this thread. You wouldn't like it if these people forced you to shag anything and eat kebabs, I don't like people forcing my daughter to worship gods. It really is quite simple. Figure it out.
I'll bet SL never thought his seemingly small spat with a school would generate 11 pages of discussion.
Side note to the last exchange. I think christians don't like to associate the USA with their beliefs anymore. Dubya and his lackies are a PR nightmare especially for christianity. I remember having a conversation with a christian relative who, much like Jan, has an irreversible belief that christian nations are the only ones prospering, and secular countries are self destructing. When I pointed out the US, she denounced it as only pretending at christianity. I gave up arguing at that point (only because it was getting attention at a family gathering and I'm the only one not blindly subscribing to christianity).
Think about it though...secular nations can provide evidence of success in various social endeavours while religious nations are noticeably failing...and who is to say which of them are "pretending" at their respective theism? The layman must assume that a country's government can speak to its allegiances to a religion (if it so exists).
But...Jan, I believe you are attempting to eliminate the US as a christian nation because it throws a bad light on the entire religion, indeed on theism as a whole.
Side note to the last exchange. I think christians don't like to associate the USA with their beliefs anymore. Dubya and his lackies are a PR nightmare especially for christianity. I remember having a conversation with a christian relative who, much like Jan, has an irreversible belief that christian nations are the only ones prospering, and secular countries are self destructing. When I pointed out the US, she denounced it as only pretending at christianity. I gave up arguing at that point (only because it was getting attention at a family gathering and I'm the only one not blindly subscribing to christianity).
Think about it though...secular nations can provide evidence of success in various social endeavours while religious nations are noticeably failing...and who is to say which of them are "pretending" at their respective theism? The layman must assume that a country's government can speak to its allegiances to a religion (if it so exists).
But...Jan, I believe you are attempting to eliminate the US as a christian nation because it throws a bad light on the entire religion, indeed on theism as a whole.
Enterprise-D,
Okay, I will accept that it is a "highly religious country" based on the notion that it is so because it has the highest group of claimants, but I cannot accept that it is actually a "religious country", based on scriptoral religion, because there is nothing, visibly, or audibly, "religious" about any of the policies, or its overall culture.
I don't think lieing comes into it, alot of people regard themselves as christian and act in the most secular way, a famous example would be someone like Beyonce (Destinys Child). Although claiming to be a devout christian, her work doesn't give us any clues as to her devotion to God. In the same way, the US public image doesn't give any clues of it being a highly religious country, despite having large religious groups. I'm quite sure that if you did go to a highly religious country, the celebrities, the mainstream media, the laws and customs, the public image, would leave us with no doubt of its status.
Well, you've got me there, because I don't see or hear anything relgious in his rhetoric. Saying; God told me to, or God bless america, is not religion, any more than saying "lay some skin on me brother" makes a white man a black man.
If God was ever described as a physical being, I would agree with you. But the thing is, he isn't.
Have you read any scriptures?
Read above.
Based on the your first condition, all the others have no meaning.
Like I've been saying; "I can't see God with my own eyes, therefore he does not exist".
I never said it did.
Okay, I will accept that it is a "highly religious country" based on the notion that it is so because it has the highest group of claimants, but I cannot accept that it is actually a "religious country", based on scriptoral religion, because there is nothing, visibly, or audibly, "religious" about any of the policies, or its overall culture.
I don't think lieing comes into it, alot of people regard themselves as christian and act in the most secular way, a famous example would be someone like Beyonce (Destinys Child). Although claiming to be a devout christian, her work doesn't give us any clues as to her devotion to God. In the same way, the US public image doesn't give any clues of it being a highly religious country, despite having large religious groups. I'm quite sure that if you did go to a highly religious country, the celebrities, the mainstream media, the laws and customs, the public image, would leave us with no doubt of its status.
Well, you've got me there, because I don't see or hear anything relgious in his rhetoric. Saying; God told me to, or God bless america, is not religion, any more than saying "lay some skin on me brother" makes a white man a black man.
If God was ever described as a physical being, I would agree with you. But the thing is, he isn't.
Have you read any scriptures?
Read above.
Based on the your first condition, all the others have no meaning.
Like I've been saying; "I can't see God with my own eyes, therefore he does not exist".
I never said it did.
(1) All of the points about the US being religious in your definition is all semantics and backpedalling. Neither SL or myself can even hope to know what your definition of "religion" or "religious" is...which seems to change every so slightly when convenient...so we're going by dictionary definition and to a lesser extent public consensus as to what "religious" appears to be. Further, it is clear that the majority of the US citizenry believe themselves religious. Where do you get off poo-pooing their beliefs? Since when did there become a Pope Jan I who could excommunicate anyone?
(2)God is described as a tripartite symbiont. To coin a phrase. Any physical incarnation will do. Including the physical Jesus incarnation. Provided that this physical incarnation can accomplish the rest of the evidentiary support. (PS! Physical does not necessarily allude tangibility).
(2)God is described as a tripartite symbiont. To coin a phrase. Any physical incarnation will do. Including the physical Jesus incarnation. Provided that this physical incarnation can accomplish the rest of the evidentiary support. (PS! Physical does not necessarily allude tangibility).
Last edited: